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Catfighting (was: Re: Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world)
by Doug Ewell May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

>>>> in a manner that often comes across as rude and offensive. >>> That is your interpretation. >> >> That is not his interpretation, that is very likely >> the interpretation by the vast majority of people on this list. > An interpretation can be shared by different people. I didn't wrote > that it would be exclusively his interpretation. > >> Stop being aggressive. Stop being abrasive. >> Stop being condescending. > Again, lack of any evidence for that to have been happened. > >> Start saying "please", > You mean like in my first posting this year Wow, this sure isn't what I signed up for on this list. I guess I'll unsubscribe and just poll the IANA page to find out about updates to the tz database. Sorry for sticking my nose into the boudoir. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA http://www.ewellic.org | @DougEwell

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Notification of new releases only
by James Diebel May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

Hello, I'm a user of the tz database, but not a contributor. I would like to receive notification of when a new release has been issued, but without receiving the messages between contributors debating the merits of various proposed changes. Is there a way to configure my mailing list subscription to only receive release notifications? Or is there some other method by which I can receive release notifications without checking the web site every day? If this is not possible, perhaps the subject line of a message announcing a new release could always contain some keywords so that I could write a mail filter to archive non-release-announcement messages? And do such new release announcements always come from the same person? That would also help. Thanks! Cheers, James

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So who is this KRE person, anyway?
by David Braverman May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

A number of posts to the list recently have concerned me greatly. It appears that people new to this list may not know of Robert Elz's contributions, or why we* other contributors generally accord him the deference we do. What follows is my own opinion, though I hope it reflects the consensus view. Back in September, when Astrolabe sued list coordinators Arthur Olson and Paul Eggert over the time zone database, KRE immediately stepped up to keep the database available. He provided server space and technical support following the database's removal from the National Institutes of Health (where it had lived from its inception); he insulated the list from the U.S. courts; he made sure that the subsequent database updates got published when necessary; and he did myriad other things that showed his commitment to the database and its users. Now that the lawsuit is gone, and Paul Eggert has officially taken over as coordinator, KRE has less of a formal role than he did as the de facto coordinator during the crisis. But even a casual scan through the list's archives will show he's long been one of the most conscientious and helpful contributors for years. He has earned my respect since I've been contributing to the list; I suspect I'm not alone. Of course, all of this is evident from the list's archives. I would suggest to anyone new to a mailing list or online community-as people have suggested, no doubt with similar effect, since the ancient days of the WELL, CompuServe, and dial-up BBSs-that reading a list's archives can answer a lot of questions, including about the community's structures and relationships, and can prevent unfortunate misunderstandings from taking over the conversation. I hope this clarifies why recent posts have generated some, shall I say, strongly-worded responses. I also hope we can now return to our regular discussion of what times the world's clocks are showing. David Braverman Inner Drive Technology https://www.inner-drive.com/Demo/Timezones.aspx * We, in this context, means those of us expressing these opinions. I think I speak for everyone here when I say no one speaks for everyone here.

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Bennett Todd <bet(a)rahul.net> wrote: > Please stop unproductive provocation on this list. Any quote for an "unproductive provocation on this list"? >It doesn't advance the > maintenance of the zoneinfo database, Can be tested after you give a quote. >and it doesn't make you look good. I don't care about how I look, when mailing to the tz mailing list. When I email to the tz mailing list, I care about the correctness of the tzdb and statements made in other mailings related to that. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Theory - typo - simplifes -> simplyfies
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

Even bug reports can contain bugs. T On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:03 PM, David Zülke <david.zuelke(a)bitextender.com> wrote: > On 08.05.2012, at 19:29, Tobias Conradi wrote: > >> tzcode2012b/Theory >> >> Indicate to humans as to where that region is. This simplifes use. >> >> simplifes -> simplyfies > > It's "simplifies". Get your own facts straight before you waste everyone's time with nonsensical "input" like this. I bet you'll follow up with another message in two months, subject "Two month past [sic] - still not fixed". > > David > > -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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As long as we're looking at the Theory file...
by Guy Harris May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

It says * This package is already part of many POSIX-compliant hosts, including BSD, HP, Linux, Network Appliance, SCO, SGI, and Sun. On such hosts, the primary use of this package is to update obsolete time zone rule tables. To do this, you may need to compile the time zone compiler `zic' supplied with this package instead of using the system `zic', since the format of zic's input changed slightly in late 1994, and many vendors still do not support the new input format. NetApp's machines aren't POSIX-compliant - the original Data ONTAP was a very specialized OS, and ONTAP GX or whatever it's called may be FreeBSD-based (with, I think, the NetApp-specific stuff running in special kernel-mode code rather than atop standard FreeBSD) but I'm not sure it supports arbitrary applications. I'm not sure whether the right solution is to drop "POSIX-compliant" or to put NetApp's machines into a separate category; I'm inclined towards the latter. In addition, OS X and iOS could be considered to fall under the heading of "BSD", but it might be worth mentioning OS X separately (you wouldn't be able to install zic-compiled tables on non-jailbroken iOS, so I wouldn't mention it). (Oh, and you might want to say "Solaris" or "Oracle" rather than "Sun", given that Sun Microsystems no longer exists.)

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Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed
by Tobias Conradi May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

1) Since September 2011 - at least - there is disagreement between reported law and tzdb for current offsets in Bulunsky Ulus, Oymyakonsky Ulus, Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus which are located in Russia. On 2012-04-29 (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-April/017639.html) it was defined by a TZ maintainer that: "The first order of business is to ensure that current (2012) time stamps are handled correctly throughout Russia." So, I assume the below could fall under first order of business. 2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html 2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data Two zones are proposed in case the data is correct for the time before the decree took effect Asia/Khandyga (setup changed later) Asia/Ust-Nera containing Oymyakonsky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008799.html 2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008818.html 2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for Asia/Khandyga to only contain Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008836.html 2012-09-27 Arthur David Olson asks for old decree "Decree #725 indicates that it abrogates Decree #23 of January 8, 1992 (among other things abrogated); is the abrogated decree available online?" http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008898.html 2012-09-27 Sanjeev Gupta provides a link to the scan http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008899.html 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson makes some analysis of the data http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008933.html 2012-10-02 Yury Tarasievich clarifies that the sections contain border descriptions and additionally writes "BTW, the document only notes the possibility, but doesn't explicitly refer to the then actual (Soviet) practice for the large territories to observe the zonal time of the neighbouring timezone." http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008935.html Now follows my interpretation of http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 (granitsa mezhdy = border between) page 5 section about Zone 8 - Zone 9 border Zone 8/left: Bulunsky Raion Zone 9/right: Ust-Maysky Raion + Tomponsky Raion page 6 section about Zone 9 - Zone 10 border Zone 10/right: Oymyakonsky Raion Which, except for Bulunsky Raion, is what according to "tzdata2012c/europe" Oscar van Vlijmen did report, but no sources were cited for. That would mean that: A) two zones need to be created: Asia/Ust-Nera Oymyakonsky Ulus Asia/Khandyga Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus both zones observing a change in offset towards Moscow Time in September 2011, exact time see below. B) Bulunsky Ulus needs a fix. Either 2009-11-29 Oscar van Vlijmen report is correct, then a new zone is needed or it is not correct, then the report should be removed or marked deprecated and the data from the 1992 decree could be used for the time before the 2011 decree became effective. Time of change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 "Опубликован: "Российская Газета", No.197, 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: ~Published ..... 2011-09-06 "Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication." which would mean the law became effective 2011-09-13 a Tuesday. http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html "Дата первой официальной публикации: 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: First official publication 2011-09-06. Note: That all leaves out effects as mentioned in the above cited 2012-10-02 comment by Yury Tarasievich. Maybe there was no offset change relative to Moscow Time, so no zones are needed. But in absence of reports supporting deviation from the 1992 decree boundaries for any of the four raion/ulus I would follow the 1992 decreed zone boundaries. 2) Law 2011 Sakha Republic is split by decree #725 http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ between Zone 7 - Moscow Time + 6 ...Bulunskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij... Zone 8 - Moscow Time + 7 ...Ojmyakonskij... Zone 9 - Moscow Time + 8 3) TZDB 2012 tzdata2012c\europe splits Sakha as follows # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Aldanskij, Amginskij, Anabarskij, # Verkhnevilyujskij, Vilyujskij, Gornyj, # Zhiganskij, Kobyajskij, Lenskij, Megino-Kangalasskij, Mirninskij, # Namskij, Nyurbinskij, Olenyokskij, Olyokminskij, # Suntarskij, Tattinskij, Ust'-Aldanskij, Khangalasskij, # Churapchinskij, Eveno-Bytantajskij Natsional'nij. Zone Asia/Yakutsk (zone.tab: Moscow+06) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Bulunskij, Verkhoyanskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij, # Ust'-Yanskij. Zone Asia/Vladivostok (zone.tab: Moscow+07) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Abyjskij, Allaikhovskij, Verkhhhnekolymskij, Momskij, # Nizhnekolymskij, Ojmyakonskij, Srednekolymskij. Zone Asia/Magadan (zone.tab: Moscow+08) -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Unsubscribe
by Brenda Burnell (bburnell) May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Steve Jones May 6, 2012

May 6, 2012

At 02:55 5/6/2012, Tobias Conradi wrote: >If a majority in a given country does not observe what the law >mandates, I would ask on the tz mailing list, whether the >information for that area should be changed. Not sure if this adds to or distracts from the conversation, but when I set out to provide accurate time zone borders for North America and eventually realized any such effort needed the sort of caveat I include for <http://ontimezone.com/>http://ontimezone.com: Ours is really just an "interpretation" of time zone data, because current time zone boundary data is elusive. And once you think you have nailed down the official "legislated" time zone, you learn about differences between that and the locally "observed" time zone... Wherever locally "observed" time differs from official, the main borders in OnTimeZone.com follow the observed time - which is what a traveler is likely to actually encounter. A problem with that is that unofficial "observed" differences typically follow vague "areas of influence" which defy precise definition. But we had to draw them somewhere. Usually these borders are in very lightly settled areas - and we took pains to draw them on the correct side of any area which may have businesses or services. That was our intent anyway - corrections appreciated! Wherever these areas are in the US, the official border is also drawn in green, for reference purposes. No attempt was made to do this for other countries, because distinctions between official and unofficial blur a bit in the various political subdivisions within most countries. In the US all official time zone borders are well and clearly documented by a single source - the US Dept. of Transportation. But be aware that within an area where observed practice differs from official, there are often internal exceptions such as Polling places, Post Offices or other federal offices, and sometimes law enforcement or various other levels of government -- who may observe official time even if the rest of the community does not. Commonly bars or liquor stores in these areas observe official time. This can provide quite a competitive advantage for properly situated bars, when last-call sojourners migrate across an official time zone border to cadge one more hour of bliss. Cheers, Steve Jones

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proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts
by OvV_HN May 5, 2012

May 5, 2012

A couple of additional tidbits, probably not really contributing to the Russian timezones discussion, but possibly interesting to some. Most details are from memory; I have not the time to look up all references. 1) Back then another contributor to the TZ list looked up which districts (ulusy) of Sakha (Jakutija) were in which timezone. I merely incorporated his research into my report on all Russian timezones. I tried to give him credits, but his name was somehow lost in the comments in the TZ file. I forgot, I have lost the emails, if reference is needed: please look it up yourself in the TZ mail archive. 2) Transliteration scheme: back then I chose for the Chemical Abstracts transliteration which had 2 advantages: (a) two-way, (b) Posix 1 compatible. Two-way means: the transliterated text can be transformed back into Russian again. With schemes like GOST 7.79 (ISO 9) and several other schemes, only one-way transliteration is possible. Why Posix 1? Because the text files in the TZ distribution have no document type definition, nor any character set designation. Furthermore, the rest of the database and the software should be Posix 1 compatible, I learned from the TZ maintainers. Hence: thou shalt not use any characters beyond 7-bits ASCII or so. 3) Districts in Sakha are in this republic called ulusy (nominative case; singular: ulus), in several other Russian publications they are called rajony (singular: rajon). The law (see my point 5) gives both terms. I think "districts" is close enough for a text comment in English. 4) With respect to the transliteration scheme in the comments: what are we talking about? At any rate not about any vital part of the TZ software. I wouldn't give it much more attention, if I may suggest. 5) The law (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/) states very clearly which Sakha districts are in which timezone. Please check this for current times in the TZ database, if not done already. There is however one not so clear part, namely the Newsiberian Islands. From memory I recall that one TZ contributor said they are administered from the central government of the republic. Heaving read several texts and looked at a couple of Russian maps, I'm inclined to believe the islands are part of the Bulunskij Ulus. Regretfully I have no definitive reference for you. Then again: how many people actually live in this reserve? So, what is the effect if we put it into the wrong timezone? Oscar van Vlijmen

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