Propose to improve where to find rules for "Indian/Kerguelen"
tzdata2012c/zone.tab contains TF ... Indian/Kerguelen But there is no file "indian" in tzdata2012c as there are "europe", "africa", "asia" for zones named "Europe/...", "Africa/...", "Asia/..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#TF - French Southern Territories TF is territory of France. But even knowing that Russian Asia/...-zones are contained in "europe" does not help as analogy, since "europe" which hosts FR-France does not contain the string "indian". Propose - to document this in "Theory" or - in "zone.tab" or - to create a file "indian" -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
On 05/11/2012 07:19 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
- to create a file "indian"
We haven't created a file like that since 1988 (when we added "africa" and "antarctica"). If we add "indian" then for consistency we should also create "atlantic" and "pacific" and "arctic" as well, and move a lot of stuff around, to be consistent, with lots of fun decisions to make about borderline cases. It's not clear that such a reorganization would overall be a win; these days, it might even make more sense to have one big text file than several little ones, if only to avoid arguments over how many files there should be and which entries should be in which file.
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 05/11/2012 07:19 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
- to create a file "indian"
We haven't created a file like that since 1988 (when we added "africa" and "antarctica"). The only persons that created files like "africa", "antarctica", "europe", have been Arthur and Paul?
tzdata1998a/zone.tab contains "Indian/Kerguelen" - so since 1998 the "Indian/Kerguelen" rules can be found where? Since 1998a there exists the "most places" (Nova Scotia) vs "most locations" (all others) inconsistency in zone.tab. Maybe some decade old issues can be fixed now.
If we add "indian" then for consistency we should also create "atlantic" and "pacific" and "arctic" as well, Agreed, if. But the proposal contained other options
It's not clear that such a reorganization would overall be a win; At least I would know where to find rules for "Indian/Kerguelen"
these days, it might even make more sense to have one big text file than several little ones, if only to avoid arguments over how many files there should be and which entries should be in which file. Agreed. I see no issue with merging the files like "africa", "antarctica", "europe".
Do at least you know where the rules for "Indian/Kerguelen" are? If so, I propose you share this knowledge in the Theory file or in zone.tab. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
On 05/11/2012 08:43 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
Do at least you know where the rules for "Indian/Kerguelen" are?
To answer routine questions like that, I usually use the "grep" command. I.e., grep Indian/Kerguelen * tells me immediately where it is. For more about "grep", please see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grep>.
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 05/11/2012 08:43 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
Do at least you know where the rules for "Indian/Kerguelen" are?
To answer routine questions like that, I usually use the "grep" command. I.e.,
grep Indian/Kerguelen *
tells me immediately where it is. For more about "grep", please see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grep>. " originally developed for the Unix operating system, but is available today for all Unix-like systems."
Is ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/ running on a Unix-like system? Where is the input field to perform the operation? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
Tobias Conradi said:
To answer routine questions like that, I usually use the "grep" command.
Is ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/ running on a Unix-like system? Where is the input field to perform the operation?
I suggest you ask somebody at your institution what the purpose of an FTP server is. Here's a free clue: it's not a search engine. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:52 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 05/11/2012 08:43 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
Do at least you know where the rules for "Indian/Kerguelen" are?
To answer routine questions like that, I usually use the "grep" command. I.e.,
grep Indian/Kerguelen *
I'm amazed that no one has actually answered the question yet. Indian/Kerguelen is in the file, antarctica. (If you have a Windows-style command line, you can use findstr much like you can use grep in a Unix shell.) --Bill Seymour
Since the subject is open, i personally have a huge issue with America/ being a primary timezone name. There is something jarring about 'America/Havana' or 'America/Toronto' or 'America/Caracas'. One has to admit that many people in the western hemisphere find it insulting that their cities are listed in 'America', considering how that handle has generally be co-opted by the USA. There are already too many zones in 'America' anyway, making the average person totally confused by the choice of 'America' as a primary group. A very clean solution fits into this discussion. I'd personally like to see America split into 'North_America', 'South_America' and 'Atlantic'. On 2012-05-11 23:12, Paul Eggert wrote:
On 05/11/2012 07:19 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
- to create a file "indian"
We haven't created a file like that since 1988 (when we added "africa" and "antarctica"). If we add "indian" then for consistency we should also create "atlantic" and "pacific" and "arctic" as well, and move a lot of stuff around, to be consistent, with lots of fun decisions to make about borderline cases. It's not clear that such a reorganization would overall be a win; these days, it might even make more sense to have one big text file than several little ones, if only to avoid arguments over how many files there should be and which entries should be in which file.
--
David Patte <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote: | One has to admit that many people in the western hemisphere find it | insulting that their cities are listed in 'America', considering how | that handle has generally be co-opted by the USA. America, that is Fidel Castro, Sitting Bull and Grazy Horse! The rest are nothing but fat staggering mini-nukes about to fulfill the book. | There are already too | many zones in 'America' anyway, making the average person totally | confused by the choice of 'America' as a primary group. | A very clean solution fits into this discussion. I'd personally like to | see America split into 'North_America', 'South_America' and 'Atlantic'. This is bizarre. Let us reflect real reality! I vote for West_America/Bejing, West_America/Tokyo, East_America/Moscow, East_America/Freedom_Fries and such. I always knew there was something that bothered me.. --steffen Forza Figa!
On 12/05/12 04:43, David Patte wrote:
Since the subject is open, i personally have a huge issue with America/ being a primary timezone name. There is something jarring about 'America/Havana' or 'America/Toronto' or 'America/Caracas'.
America is a continent, although in common parlance it's a country as well. Changing names is a recipe for confusion though. You're not constrained to choose a timezone by name though: I regularly choose timezones from two sorts of map, one shows regions, the other places (cities, mainly) and I also get timezone chosen by GPS or IP location. I don't like being lumped in with Europe either :) jch
No, America is not a continent. It is two continents. North America, and South America. Whereas in the tz database, zones are generally grouped by continents or oceans, the Americas have the two continents lumped into one, making a large list of zones within the America group. Splitting it into North_America and South_America and Atlantic would make the list more consistant, make finding zones easier, and remove the overlap with with the nickname for the USA. On 2012-05-15 6:51, John Haxby wrote:
On 12/05/12 04:43, David Patte wrote:
Since the subject is open, i personally have a huge issue with America/ being a primary timezone name. There is something jarring about 'America/Havana' or 'America/Toronto' or 'America/Caracas'. America is a continent, although in common parlance it's a country as well.
Changing names is a recipe for confusion though. You're not constrained to choose a timezone by name though: I regularly choose timezones from two sorts of map, one shows regions, the other places (cities, mainly) and I also get timezone chosen by GPS or IP location.
I don't like being lumped in with Europe either :)
jch
--
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:36 PM, David Patte <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
No, America is not a continent. It is two continents. North America, and
This is debatable. http://blog.cgpgrey.com/what-are-continents/ In the end it's all subjective. And since it's subjective and it's annoying to make these changes, it's a valid position to say that the current configuration is subjectively fine. Kevin -- Kevin Lyda Dublin, Ireland US Citizen overseas? We can vote. Register now: http://www.votefromabroad.org/
On 05/15/2012 07:56 AM, Kevin Lyda wrote:
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:36 PM, David Patte<dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
No, America is not a continent. It is two continents. North America, and
This is debatable.
http://blog.cgpgrey.com/what-are-continents/
In the end it's all subjective. And since it's subjective and it's annoying to make these changes, it's a valid position to say that the current configuration is subjectively fine.
And it's also politically charged. There are several countries that are located in a part of the globe traditionally identified as Asia that have petitioned at various times to join the EU; I recall at least one proposal to change such a country to a 'Europe/' identifier from an 'Asia/' one. And the 'North_America/South_America' line is equally thorny. Central American countries face vehement arguments over whether they belong to North America (by geographical affiliation - placing the dividing line at the narrowest part of the Isthmus of Panama) or to South America (by language and culture). There are no good answers. Stability argues that the best answer is to say, "the names are what they have been, right or wrong, until and unless an overwhelming consensus emerges to change them." It means that we wind up stuck with some past mistakes. It also means that we don't have to track the political winds that whirl about continually and return according to their circuits.
I firmly agree. Stability is far more important than fiddling with the identifier names. After all, the identifier names are really not for human consumption; they need translation for anything but English, and even for English need some tweaking. And if people want to have different groupings, that is easy to do. In CLDR, for example, we group according to the United Nations M.49 standard for continents and subcontinents. (Cf http://unicode.org/repos/cldr-tmp/trunk/diff/supplemental/territory_containm... ) And for programmers, grep or equivalent is fine. ------------------------------ Mark <https://plus.google.com/114199149796022210033> * * *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —* ** On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Kevin Kenny <kkenny2@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
On 05/15/2012 07:56 AM, Kevin Lyda wrote:
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:36 PM, David Patte<dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
No, America is not a continent. It is two continents. North America, and
This is debatable.
http://blog.cgpgrey.com/what-**are-continents/<http://blog.cgpgrey.com/what-are-continents/>
In the end it's all subjective. And since it's subjective and it's annoying to make these changes, it's a valid position to say that the current configuration is subjectively fine.
And it's also politically charged. There are several countries that are located in a part of the globe traditionally identified as Asia that have petitioned at various times to join the EU; I recall at least one proposal to change such a country to a 'Europe/' identifier from an 'Asia/' one.
And the 'North_America/South_America' line is equally thorny. Central American countries face vehement arguments over whether they belong to North America (by geographical affiliation - placing the dividing line at the narrowest part of the Isthmus of Panama) or to South America (by language and culture).
There are no good answers. Stability argues that the best answer is to say, "the names are what they have been, right or wrong, until and unless an overwhelming consensus emerges to change them." It means that we wind up stuck with some past mistakes. It also means that we don't have to track the political winds that whirl about continually and return according to their circuits.
participants (10)
-
Bill Seymour -
Clive D.W. Feather -
David Patte -
John Haxby -
Kevin Kenny -
Kevin Lyda -
Mark Davis ☕ -
Paul Eggert -
Steffen Daode Nurpmeso -
Tobias Conradi