May 2012 - tz - lists.iana.org

Re: [tz] zone.tab comments Canada - places -> locations
by Tobias Conradi May 11, 2012

May 11, 2012

was "[tz] zone.tab comments Canada - places -> locations [OT - English]" I return to on topic. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 5:41 AM, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis(a)systematicsw.ab.ca> wrote: .... >> C) >> I mean and meant location as in zone.tab >> "Central Standard Time - Saskatchewan - most locations" >> >> D) >> I mean and meant location as in Theory file: > ... > Use of location in Theory refers to a specific place > to be used as the time zone name. Not true. tzcode2012b\Theory: ----- Names of time zone rule files ----- Names normally have the form AREA/LOCATION, where AREA is the name of a continent or ocean, and LOCATION is the name of a specific location within that region. ---------------------------------------- I.e. the /name of a specific location/ is to be used as one /part/ of the time zone name. > Use of places in zone.tab comments refers to the general locales where the > same time zone is observed around the specific location used for the time > zone name; And the use of "locations" in zone.tab is the same. Following are some quotes from RFC 5545 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545 Internet Calendaring and Scheduling Core Object Specification http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545#page-28 Failure to include and follow VTIMEZONE definitions in iCalendar objects may lead to inconsistent understanding of the local time at any given location. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545#page-64 Many locations adjust their Standard Time forward or backward by one hour, in order to accommodate seasonal changes in number of daylight hours, often referred to as Daylight Saving Time. Some locations adjust their time by a fraction of an hour. ... This database contains current and historical time zone information for a wide variety of locations around the globe http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545#section-3.8.1.7 Property Name: LOCATION Purpose: This property defines the intended venue for the activity defined by a calendar component. The IETF GEOPRIV site https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/geopriv/charter/ uses "location" and not "place". Some related ISO standards: a) ISO 19112:2003 Geographic information -- Spatial referencing by geographic identifiers 4.4 location identifiable geographic place found via http://www.iso.org/obp/ui/ b) http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm… ISO 6709:2008 Standard representation of geographic point location by coordinates c) http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnu… ISO 19133:2005 Geographic information -- Location-based services -- Tracking and navigation Annex: Background information for when the inconsistencies first occurred in the tzdb: tzdata1996l/zone.tab did only have "most locations" and no "most places" America/Halifax Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia (most locations), New Brunswick, Labrador & PEI But did have America/Glace_Bay Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia - places that did not observe DST 1966-1971 America/Nipigon Eastern Time - Ontario & Quebec - places that did not observe DST 1967-1973 tzdata1998a/zone.tab maybe earlier, contains "most places" once: America/Halifax Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia (most places), NB, W Labrador, E Quebec & PEI And twelve times "most locations". -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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zone.tab comments Canada - places -> locations
by Tobias Conradi May 11, 2012

May 11, 2012

Current: tzdata2012c/zone.tab America/Halifax Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia (most places), PEI America/Glace_Bay Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia - places that did not observe DST 1966-1971 America/Nipigon Eastern Time - Ontario & Quebec - places that did not observe DST 1967-1973 Proposed: America/Halifax Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia (most locations), PEI America/Glace_Bay Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia - locations that did not observe DST 1966-1971 America/Nipigon Eastern Time - Ontario & Quebec - locations that did not observe DST 1967-1973 Reason: Harmonize. Theory uses "locations" (9x) more often than "places" (2x) zone.tab uses "place" only thrice, namely within the comments field of the three above zone for Canada. zone.tab uses "location" more than 20x. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Fwd: zone.tab comments Canada - places -> locations
by Tobias Conradi May 10, 2012

May 10, 2012

A comment by Steffen Daode Nurpmeso. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Steffen Daode Nurpmeso <sdaoden(a)googlemail.com> Date: Thu, May 10, 2012 at 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [tz] zone.tab comments Canada - places -> locations To: Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com> Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com> wrote: | On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:21 PM, John Haxby <john.haxby(a)oracle.com> wrote: | > On 10/05/12 05:06, Tobias Conradi wrote: | > No. | No what? | > A native English speaker (like me) would not swap "place" for | I think, if "places" is unambiguous and precise, Tobias Conradi, a | non-native English speaker, wouldn't say "locales" instead of "places" | But me - a non-native English speaker - I would try to avoid choosing Domingos de la gran Puta. M.f.G. --steffen Forza Figa! -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Russia tidbits
by OvV_HN May 10, 2012

May 10, 2012

Regarding: [tz] Uzbekistan - insufficient location desciption Tobias Conradi tobias.conradi at gmail.com Wed May 9 15:48:29 UTC 2012 I would like to propose to ignore this email for the moment. Tobias is trying to give more details for the east / west division of Uzbekistan. Looking at the TZ asia file I get the impression that we are talking about the situation in the olden days. Furthermore I get the impression that Tobias is trying to overlay the current divisions of Uzbekistan to the situation before 1930, when there were 2 distinct timezones. If you look at old maps, you will notice that for instance the Samarkand region cannot be described in terms of provinces of 2012. Reference: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%… (Administrative divisions of Uzbekistan, in Russian) In my opinion the comments in the TZ asia file (Samarkand Time, Tashkent Time) can be regarded as sufficient. Provisionally you may call this West, East, as in zone.tab. So, don't change no nothing! Regarding: Sakha Republic and the Newsiberian Islands. I haven't given a reference yet, here it is: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:Sakha_Republic_Munici… In this map we see that the Newsiberian Islands (Novosibirskije Ostrova) are part of the Bulunskij Ulus, numbered 6 in the map. This is no definite proof, but good enough for me. Regarding: Transliteration of Russian names. Please don't Americanize too much. The letter "y" is overused. In that case the reconstruction back into Cyrillic is somewhat difficult. ISO 9 System B, or what I used (Chemical Abstracts = British Standard BS 2979-1958) is better suited for 2-way transliterations. Which I prefer. But if TZ prefers the American way: be my guest. But try to be a bit consistent, which would involve erasing all my Russian transliterations (haha!). Oscar van Vlijmen

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Housekeeping
by David Braverman May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

Yesterday I asserted that Paul Eggert was confirmed as the list coordinator about four weeks ago. I've since gone back through the archive and didn't find an formal announcement. Can someone at IANA or in the IESG send official word? Also, I'm not sure of the procedure or criteria, if any, for banning someone from the list, but I would suggest taking a look to see if the person in question had ever gotten banned from other communities, and under what circumstances. For example, if someone had been banned multiple times from another online community for incivility and sock puppetry, and currently has an indefinite ban from that group, that would be interesting to know, wouldn't it? David Braverman Inner Drive Technology http://www.inner-drive.com/Demo/Timezones.aspx

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zone.tab comments - most, most places -> most locations
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

Current: tzdata2012c/zone.tab Asia/Urumqi most of Tibet & Xinjiang America/Halifax Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia (most places), PEI Proposed: Asia/Urumqi Tibet & Xinjiang - most locations America/Halifax Atlantic Time - Nova Scotia - most locations, PEI Reason: Harmonize with Australia/Hobart Tasmania - most locations Australia/Sydney New South Wales - most locations Australia/Brisbane Queensland - most locations Australia/Perth Western Australia - most locations America/Goose_Bay Atlantic Time - Labrador - most locations America/Montreal Eastern Time - Quebec - most locations America/Toronto Eastern Time - Ontario - most locations America/Iqaluit Eastern Time - east Nunavut - most locations America/Regina Central Standard Time - Saskatchewan - most locations America/Mexico_City Central Time - most locations America/Detroit Eastern Time - Michigan - most locations -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Potentially a libel/ criminal offence on the tz mailing list WAS: Housekeeping
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 4:05 PM, gunther Vermeir <gunther.vermeir(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I assume you refer to tobias conradi's several wiki/media/pedia/etc bans? If your claim cannot be proven it may constitute libel, which is a criminal offence in several jurisdictions. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Proposed changes: Sakha/Kuril shifts in 2011
by Arthur David Olson May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

I've attached proposed changes for 2011 Sakha/Kuril time zone shifts; they also appear below (with tab characters mangled). --ado diff -r -c new/europe newer/europe *** new/europe 2012-05-05 09:40:53.091364400 -0400 --- newer/europe 2012-05-09 10:32:28.819887000 -0400 *************** *** 1,5 **** # <pre> ! # @(#)europe 8.43 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. --- 1,5 ---- # <pre> ! # @(#)europe 8.44 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. *************** *** 2044,2049 **** --- 2044,2113 ---- # Russia + # From Alexander Krivenyshev (2011-09-15): + # Based on last Russian Government Decree # 725 on August 31, 2011 + # (Government document + # <a href="http://www.government.ru/gov/results/16355/print/"> + # http://www.government.ru/gov/results/16355/print/ + # </a> + # in Russian) + # there are few corrections have to be made for some Russian time zones... + # All updated Russian Time Zones were placed in table and translated to English + # by WorldTimeZone.com at the link below: + # <a href="http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_russia36.htm"> + # http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_russia36.htm + # </a> + + # From Sanjeev Gupta (2011-09-27): + # Scans of [Decree #23 of January 8, 1992] are available at: + # <a href="http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966"> + # http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 + # They are in Cyrillic letters (presumably Russian). + + # From Arthur David Olson (2012-05-09): + # Regarding the instant when clocks in time-zone-shifting parts of Russia + # changed in September 2011: + # + # One source is + # < a href="http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/> + # http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ + # </a> + # which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Decree of August 31, + # 2011 No 725" and contains no other dates or "effective date" information. + # + # Another source is + # <a href="http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html"> + # http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html + # </a> + # which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Resolution of the + # Government of the Russian Federation on August 31, 2011 N 725" and also + # contains "Date first official publication: September 6, 2011 Posted on: + # in the 'RG' - Federal Issue number 5573 September 6, 2011" but which + # does not contain any "effective date" information. + # + # Another source is + # <a href=" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7"> + # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 + # </a> + # which, in note 8, contains "Resolution #725 of August 31, 2011... + # Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication" + # but which does not contain any reference to September 6, 2011. + # + # The Wikipedia article refers to + # <a href=" http://base.consultant.ru/cons/cgi/online.cgi?req=doc;base=LAW;n=118896"> + # http://base.consultant.ru/cons/cgi/online.cgi?req=doc;base=LAW;n=118896 + # </a> + # which seems to copy the text of the government.ru page. + # + # Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's + # "as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication" + # with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to get + # September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias Conradi notes). + # + # None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks. + # + # Go with 2011-09-13 0:00s. + # From Paul Eggert (2006-03-22): # Except for Moscow after 1919-07-01, I invented the time zone abbreviations. # Moscow time zone abbreviations after 1919-07-01, and Moscow rules after 1991, *************** *** 2330,2343 **** # [parts of] Respublika Sakha (Yakutiya). # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): ! # The Sakha districts are: Bulunskij, Verkhoyanskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij, ! # Ust'-Yanskij. Zone Asia/Vladivostok 8:47:44 - LMT 1922 Nov 15 9:00 - VLAT 1930 Jun 21 # Vladivostok Time 10:00 Russia VLA%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 9:00 Russia VLA%sST 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 10:00 Russia VLA%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 11:00 - VLAT # # Sakhalinskaya oblast'. # The Zone name should be Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, but that's too long. --- 2394,2419 ---- # [parts of] Respublika Sakha (Yakutiya). # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): ! # The Sakha districts are: Bulunskij, Verkhoyanskij, ... Ust'-Yanskij. Zone Asia/Vladivostok 8:47:44 - LMT 1922 Nov 15 9:00 - VLAT 1930 Jun 21 # Vladivostok Time 10:00 Russia VLA%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 9:00 Russia VLA%sST 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 10:00 Russia VLA%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 11:00 - VLAT + + # From Arthur David Olson (2012-05-09): + # Tomponskij and Ust'-Majskij switched from Vladivostok time to Yakutsk time + # in 2011. + + Zone Asia/Khandyga 9:02:13 - LMT 1922 Nov 15 + 9:00 - VLAT 1930 Jun 21 # Vladivostok Time + 10:00 Russia VLA%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s + 9:00 Russia VLA%sST 1992 Jan 19 2:00s + 10:00 Russia VLA%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s + 11:00 - VLAT 2011 Sep 13 0:00s # Decree 725? + 10:00 - YAKT + # # Sakhalinskaya oblast'. # The Zone name should be Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk, but that's too long. *************** *** 2356,2368 **** # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Abyjskij, Allaikhovskij, Verkhhhnekolymskij, Momskij, ! # Nizhnekolymskij, Ojmyakonskij, Srednekolymskij. Zone Asia/Magadan 10:03:12 - LMT 1924 May 2 10:00 - MAGT 1930 Jun 21 # Magadan Time 11:00 Russia MAG%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 10:00 Russia MAG%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 11:00 Russia MAG%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 12:00 - MAGT # # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2001-08-25): [This region consists of] # Kamchatskaya oblast', Koryakskij avtonomnyj okrug. --- 2432,2456 ---- # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Abyjskij, Allaikhovskij, Verkhhhnekolymskij, Momskij, ! # Nizhnekolymskij, ... Srednekolymskij. Zone Asia/Magadan 10:03:12 - LMT 1924 May 2 10:00 - MAGT 1930 Jun 21 # Magadan Time 11:00 Russia MAG%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 10:00 Russia MAG%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 11:00 Russia MAG%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 12:00 - MAGT + + # From Arthur David Olson (2012-05-09): + # Ojmyakonskij and the Kuril Islands switched from + # Magadan time to Vladivostok time in 2011 + Zone Asia/Ust-Nera 9:32:54 - LMT 1924 May 2 + 10:00 - MAGT 1930 Jun 21 # Magadan Time + 11:00 Russia MAG%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s + 10:00 Russia MAG%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s + 11:00 Russia MAG%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s + 12:00 - MAGT 2011 Sep 13 0:00s # Decree 725? + 11:00 - VLAT + # # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2001-08-25): [This region consists of] # Kamchatskaya oblast', Koryakskij avtonomnyj okrug. diff -r -c new/zone.tab newer/zone.tab *** new/zone.tab 2012-05-05 09:40:50.719228800 -0400 --- newer/zone.tab 2012-05-09 10:29:45.352537200 -0400 *************** *** 1,5 **** # <pre> ! # @(#)zone.tab 8.57 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. # --- 1,5 ---- # <pre> ! # @(#)zone.tab 8.58 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. # *************** *** 344,351 **** --- 344,353 ---- RU +5601+09250 Asia/Krasnoyarsk Moscow+04 - Yenisei River RU +5216+10420 Asia/Irkutsk Moscow+05 - Lake Baikal RU +6200+12940 Asia/Yakutsk Moscow+06 - Lena River + RU +623923+1353314 Asia/Khandyga Moscow+06 - Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky RU +4310+13156 Asia/Vladivostok Moscow+07 - Amur River RU +4658+14242 Asia/Sakhalin Moscow+07 - Sakhalin Island + RU +643337+1431336 Asia/Ust-Nera Moscow+07 - Oymyakonsky RU +5934+15048 Asia/Magadan Moscow+08 - Magadan RU +5301+15839 Asia/Kamchatka Moscow+08 - Kamchatka RU +6445+17729 Asia/Anadyr Moscow+08 - Bering Sea

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 3:43 PM, John Hawkinson <jhawk(a)mit.edu> wrote: >> And it is privacy violation to send unsolicited private emails. > > We disagree OK. > I shall not engage your further given your position. Thank you. > This is a private message I expect not to see forwarded to the list. I will start not forwarding your private message to me, after you stop sending me private messages. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

Below an opinion of Steffen Daode Nurpmeso, unfortunately in German, which is not the main language for the tz mailing list. 2012/5/9 Steffen Daode Nurpmeso <sdaoden(a)googlemail.com>: > Es gibt viele Leute, die Fehler melden, auch bittere, > und die trotzdem niemals irgendeine Rückmeldung bekommen. > Auf deine momentane Art erreicht man jedenfalls auf gar keinen > Fall irgendetwas, erst recht nichts gutes. > Und wieso glaube ich, dass du das genau weißt. > Danke für dein Verständnis. > > --steffen > Forza Figa! -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Fwd: Time Zone List
by Marshall Eubanks May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

Here is your answer Marshall ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Russ Housley <housley(a)vigilsec.com> Date: Wed, May 9, 2012 at 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Time Zone List To: Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks(a)gmail.com> Done quite a while ago. On May 9, 2012, at 9:44 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > Do you know if the IESG confirmed Paul Eggert as admin and expert of > the time zone database mailing list. > > Regards > Marshall

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:52 PM, John Hawkinson <jhawk(a)mit.edu> wrote: > I just wanted to add my voice to that of others. > You are out of line. > Please be more polite and respectful or you are likely to be ignored, > and certainly your concerns will be marginalized. My concern is having a correct as possible tzdb. If my concerns will be marginalized, it would be "marginalizing" the goal of having bugs fixed. I never have respect towards bugs, I am happy to make them better visible by posting them on the list. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

was: [tz] proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.oz.au> wrote: > Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 04:11:55 +0200 > From: Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com> > Message-ID: <CAAGevbVsY5SEs=3NGyau7T_aLW+W0cV18tofP3d_aDfjTw1M0w(a)mail.gmail.com> > > | Putting something into the wrong timezone is by definition having a > | bug in the TIMEZONE database. > > No, once again, it is not, or not in any way that is important. There was no claim of importance, the claim only was that there is a bug. > | > If the comments in the zone file are wrong, > | > we should certainly fix them sometime, > | Now you change your opinion? > > No, not at all, we fix erroneous comments, but erroneous comments are > not a bug, as they don't affect the results, Of course they do. If one selects timezone Asia/Baku based on a comment that this is the tz zone for Chicago then one would get false offsets and false transitions. > they're just a minor > insignificant error. Not to me, and maybe not for the people trying to find the Chicago zone data. > Like any error, such things should get fixed, > but like other irrelevant errors, fixing them isn't urgent. Not for me. > | Any prove that all the view at > | http://stats.grok.se/en/201204/List_of_tz_database_time_zones > | are from list members? > > List members can do whatever they like, and some of the people on > this list (and associated with this project) certainly do attempt to > make maps of timezones in one way or another. That's all fine, but > it is not this project. I didn't claim that. Your claim was " ...comments .... have no real importance and are generally only ever even seen by the people on this list (no-one else is really very likely to read through all of that stuff -...)" You provide no proof that the views of the Wikipedia page in question came only from list members. In absence of this, I think your claim is false. > | >(no-one else is really very likely to > | > read through all of that stuff - zic certainly doesn't care.) > | I read the comments before I was a list member. > > Sure, there are people who look at this stuff, but not very many > compared with the number of people who use the real product of this > project - which is the zone database. Can you tell a way of how a user determines the correct zone for a random location in Indiana, selecting between America/Indiana/Indianapolis America/Indiana/Vincennes America/Indiana/Winamac America/Indiana/Marengo America/Indiana/Petersburg America/Indiana/Vevay America/Kentucky/Louisville America/New York without reading the comments? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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zone.tab comment for Europe/Volgograd
by Tobias Conradi May 9, 2012

May 9, 2012

Current: tzdata2012c/zone.tab Europe/Volgograd Moscow+00 - Caspian Sea tzdata2012c/europe # Astrakhanskaya oblast', Kirovskaya oblast', Saratovskaya oblast', # Volgogradskaya oblast'. ... Zone Europe/Volgograd Propose: zone.tab Europe/Volgograd Moscow+00 - Astrakhan, Kirov, Saratov, Volgograd Reasoning: "Astrakhan, Kirov, Saratov, Volgograd" refers to federal subjects (1st level country subdivisions), while "Caspian Sea" to a lake only. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_subjects_of_Russia The federal subjects of Russia that are bordering the Caspian Sea are 05 Dagestan 08 Kalmykia 20 Chechnya 30 Astrakhan Dagestan, Kalmykia, Chechnya according to the europe file are located in Zone Europe/Moscow. Only Astrakhan is contained in both groups (Caspian Sea neigbor, Zone Europe/Volgograd member). So Caspian Sea in the comment column is not only imprecise but actually misleading. The comment for Europe/Moscow in zone.tab is Moscow+00 - west Russia a comment that does not list Dagestan, Kalmykia, Chechnya. Therefore a reader could not deduct that these three, out of four Caspian Sea neighbors among the federal subjects, don't belong to "Moscow+00 - Caspian Sea". -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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zone.tab comment for Asia/Irkutsk
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

Current: tzdata2012c\zone.tab "Moscow+05 - Lake Baikal" tzdata2012c\europe # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2001-08-25): [This region consists of] # Respublika Buryatiya, Irkutskaya oblast', # Ust'-Ordynskij Buryatskij avtonomnyj okrug. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ust-Orda_Buryat_Okrug "Ust-Orda Buryatia, is an administrative division of Irkutsk Oblast" " It was a federal subject of Russia (an autonomous okrug of Irkutsk Oblast) from 1993 to January 1, 2008, when it merged with Irkutsk Oblast (it also had autonomous okrug status from September 26, 1937 to 1993" Propose: zone.tab "Moscow+05 - Irkutsk, Buryatia" europe Add a notice of merge. Reasoning: "Irkutsk, Buryatia" refers to federal subjects (1st level country subdivisions), while "Lake Baikal" to a lake only. But the zone covers the area of the two federal subjects. Do it similar to the 2nd level country subdivision comments for these US zones: America/Kentucky/Monticello Eastern Time - Kentucky - Wayne County America/Indiana/Indianapolis Eastern Time - Indiana - most locations America/Indiana/Vincennes Eastern Time - Indiana - Daviess, Dubois, Knox & Martin Counties America/Indiana/Winamac Eastern Time - Indiana - Pulaski County America/Indiana/Marengo Eastern Time - Indiana - Crawford County America/Indiana/Petersburg Eastern Time - Indiana - Pike County America/Indiana/Vevay Eastern Time - Indiana - Switzerland County -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Sakhalin bug - seven months past - still not fixed
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

reported 2011-09-16 by Alexander Krivenyshev http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html 2012-09-22 Tobias Conradi proposes new zone Asia/Yuzhno-Kurilsk http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008845.html 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson starts the last thread in 2012 covering this Sakhalin bug http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008933.html ----- This may need a zone creation similar to the ones in the Sakha Republic. The Sakha summary may contain all needed laws: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017688.html If I have time, the bug is open and I am still allowed to post to the tz mailing list I may mail a deeper analyze of the needed fix, similar to the one I did create for the Sakha Republic. If not, this posting here may serve simply as a reminder. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Catfighting (was: Re: Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world)
by Doug Ewell May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

>>>> in a manner that often comes across as rude and offensive. >>> That is your interpretation. >> >> That is not his interpretation, that is very likely >> the interpretation by the vast majority of people on this list. > An interpretation can be shared by different people. I didn't wrote > that it would be exclusively his interpretation. > >> Stop being aggressive. Stop being abrasive. >> Stop being condescending. > Again, lack of any evidence for that to have been happened. > >> Start saying "please", > You mean like in my first posting this year Wow, this sure isn't what I signed up for on this list. I guess I'll unsubscribe and just poll the IANA page to find out about updates to the tz database. Sorry for sticking my nose into the boudoir. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA http://www.ewellic.org | @DougEwell

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Notification of new releases only
by James Diebel May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

Hello, I'm a user of the tz database, but not a contributor. I would like to receive notification of when a new release has been issued, but without receiving the messages between contributors debating the merits of various proposed changes. Is there a way to configure my mailing list subscription to only receive release notifications? Or is there some other method by which I can receive release notifications without checking the web site every day? If this is not possible, perhaps the subject line of a message announcing a new release could always contain some keywords so that I could write a mail filter to archive non-release-announcement messages? And do such new release announcements always come from the same person? That would also help. Thanks! Cheers, James

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So who is this KRE person, anyway?
by David Braverman May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

A number of posts to the list recently have concerned me greatly. It appears that people new to this list may not know of Robert Elz's contributions, or why we* other contributors generally accord him the deference we do. What follows is my own opinion, though I hope it reflects the consensus view. Back in September, when Astrolabe sued list coordinators Arthur Olson and Paul Eggert over the time zone database, KRE immediately stepped up to keep the database available. He provided server space and technical support following the database's removal from the National Institutes of Health (where it had lived from its inception); he insulated the list from the U.S. courts; he made sure that the subsequent database updates got published when necessary; and he did myriad other things that showed his commitment to the database and its users. Now that the lawsuit is gone, and Paul Eggert has officially taken over as coordinator, KRE has less of a formal role than he did as the de facto coordinator during the crisis. But even a casual scan through the list's archives will show he's long been one of the most conscientious and helpful contributors for years. He has earned my respect since I've been contributing to the list; I suspect I'm not alone. Of course, all of this is evident from the list's archives. I would suggest to anyone new to a mailing list or online community-as people have suggested, no doubt with similar effect, since the ancient days of the WELL, CompuServe, and dial-up BBSs-that reading a list's archives can answer a lot of questions, including about the community's structures and relationships, and can prevent unfortunate misunderstandings from taking over the conversation. I hope this clarifies why recent posts have generated some, shall I say, strongly-worded responses. I also hope we can now return to our regular discussion of what times the world's clocks are showing. David Braverman Inner Drive Technology https://www.inner-drive.com/Demo/Timezones.aspx * We, in this context, means those of us expressing these opinions. I think I speak for everyone here when I say no one speaks for everyone here.

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Bennett Todd <bet(a)rahul.net> wrote: > Please stop unproductive provocation on this list. Any quote for an "unproductive provocation on this list"? >It doesn't advance the > maintenance of the zoneinfo database, Can be tested after you give a quote. >and it doesn't make you look good. I don't care about how I look, when mailing to the tz mailing list. When I email to the tz mailing list, I care about the correctness of the tzdb and statements made in other mailings related to that. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Theory - typo - simplifes -> simplyfies
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

Even bug reports can contain bugs. T On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:03 PM, David Zülke <david.zuelke(a)bitextender.com> wrote: > On 08.05.2012, at 19:29, Tobias Conradi wrote: > >> tzcode2012b/Theory >> >> Indicate to humans as to where that region is. This simplifes use. >> >> simplifes -> simplyfies > > It's "simplifies". Get your own facts straight before you waste everyone's time with nonsensical "input" like this. I bet you'll follow up with another message in two months, subject "Two month past [sic] - still not fixed". > > David > > -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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As long as we're looking at the Theory file...
by Guy Harris May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

It says * This package is already part of many POSIX-compliant hosts, including BSD, HP, Linux, Network Appliance, SCO, SGI, and Sun. On such hosts, the primary use of this package is to update obsolete time zone rule tables. To do this, you may need to compile the time zone compiler `zic' supplied with this package instead of using the system `zic', since the format of zic's input changed slightly in late 1994, and many vendors still do not support the new input format. NetApp's machines aren't POSIX-compliant - the original Data ONTAP was a very specialized OS, and ONTAP GX or whatever it's called may be FreeBSD-based (with, I think, the NetApp-specific stuff running in special kernel-mode code rather than atop standard FreeBSD) but I'm not sure it supports arbitrary applications. I'm not sure whether the right solution is to drop "POSIX-compliant" or to put NetApp's machines into a separate category; I'm inclined towards the latter. In addition, OS X and iOS could be considered to fall under the heading of "BSD", but it might be worth mentioning OS X separately (you wouldn't be able to install zic-compiled tables on non-jailbroken iOS, so I wouldn't mention it). (Oh, and you might want to say "Solaris" or "Oracle" rather than "Sun", given that Sun Microsystems no longer exists.)

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Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed
by Tobias Conradi May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

1) Since September 2011 - at least - there is disagreement between reported law and tzdb for current offsets in Bulunsky Ulus, Oymyakonsky Ulus, Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus which are located in Russia. On 2012-04-29 (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-April/017639.html) it was defined by a TZ maintainer that: "The first order of business is to ensure that current (2012) time stamps are handled correctly throughout Russia." So, I assume the below could fall under first order of business. 2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html 2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data Two zones are proposed in case the data is correct for the time before the decree took effect Asia/Khandyga (setup changed later) Asia/Ust-Nera containing Oymyakonsky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008799.html 2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008818.html 2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for Asia/Khandyga to only contain Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008836.html 2012-09-27 Arthur David Olson asks for old decree "Decree #725 indicates that it abrogates Decree #23 of January 8, 1992 (among other things abrogated); is the abrogated decree available online?" http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008898.html 2012-09-27 Sanjeev Gupta provides a link to the scan http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008899.html 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson makes some analysis of the data http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008933.html 2012-10-02 Yury Tarasievich clarifies that the sections contain border descriptions and additionally writes "BTW, the document only notes the possibility, but doesn't explicitly refer to the then actual (Soviet) practice for the large territories to observe the zonal time of the neighbouring timezone." http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008935.html Now follows my interpretation of http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 (granitsa mezhdy = border between) page 5 section about Zone 8 - Zone 9 border Zone 8/left: Bulunsky Raion Zone 9/right: Ust-Maysky Raion + Tomponsky Raion page 6 section about Zone 9 - Zone 10 border Zone 10/right: Oymyakonsky Raion Which, except for Bulunsky Raion, is what according to "tzdata2012c/europe" Oscar van Vlijmen did report, but no sources were cited for. That would mean that: A) two zones need to be created: Asia/Ust-Nera Oymyakonsky Ulus Asia/Khandyga Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus both zones observing a change in offset towards Moscow Time in September 2011, exact time see below. B) Bulunsky Ulus needs a fix. Either 2009-11-29 Oscar van Vlijmen report is correct, then a new zone is needed or it is not correct, then the report should be removed or marked deprecated and the data from the 1992 decree could be used for the time before the 2011 decree became effective. Time of change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 "Опубликован: "Российская Газета", No.197, 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: ~Published ..... 2011-09-06 "Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication." which would mean the law became effective 2011-09-13 a Tuesday. http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html "Дата первой официальной публикации: 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: First official publication 2011-09-06. Note: That all leaves out effects as mentioned in the above cited 2012-10-02 comment by Yury Tarasievich. Maybe there was no offset change relative to Moscow Time, so no zones are needed. But in absence of reports supporting deviation from the 1992 decree boundaries for any of the four raion/ulus I would follow the 1992 decreed zone boundaries. 2) Law 2011 Sakha Republic is split by decree #725 http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ between Zone 7 - Moscow Time + 6 ...Bulunskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij... Zone 8 - Moscow Time + 7 ...Ojmyakonskij... Zone 9 - Moscow Time + 8 3) TZDB 2012 tzdata2012c\europe splits Sakha as follows # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Aldanskij, Amginskij, Anabarskij, # Verkhnevilyujskij, Vilyujskij, Gornyj, # Zhiganskij, Kobyajskij, Lenskij, Megino-Kangalasskij, Mirninskij, # Namskij, Nyurbinskij, Olenyokskij, Olyokminskij, # Suntarskij, Tattinskij, Ust'-Aldanskij, Khangalasskij, # Churapchinskij, Eveno-Bytantajskij Natsional'nij. Zone Asia/Yakutsk (zone.tab: Moscow+06) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Bulunskij, Verkhoyanskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij, # Ust'-Yanskij. Zone Asia/Vladivostok (zone.tab: Moscow+07) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Abyjskij, Allaikhovskij, Verkhhhnekolymskij, Momskij, # Nizhnekolymskij, Ojmyakonskij, Srednekolymskij. Zone Asia/Magadan (zone.tab: Moscow+08) -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Unsubscribe
by Brenda Burnell (bburnell) May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Steve Jones May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

At 02:55 5/6/2012, Tobias Conradi wrote: >If a majority in a given country does not observe what the law >mandates, I would ask on the tz mailing list, whether the >information for that area should be changed. Not sure if this adds to or distracts from the conversation, but when I set out to provide accurate time zone borders for North America and eventually realized any such effort needed the sort of caveat I include for <http://ontimezone.com/>http://ontimezone.com: Ours is really just an "interpretation" of time zone data, because current time zone boundary data is elusive. And once you think you have nailed down the official "legislated" time zone, you learn about differences between that and the locally "observed" time zone... Wherever locally "observed" time differs from official, the main borders in OnTimeZone.com follow the observed time - which is what a traveler is likely to actually encounter. A problem with that is that unofficial "observed" differences typically follow vague "areas of influence" which defy precise definition. But we had to draw them somewhere. Usually these borders are in very lightly settled areas - and we took pains to draw them on the correct side of any area which may have businesses or services. That was our intent anyway - corrections appreciated! Wherever these areas are in the US, the official border is also drawn in green, for reference purposes. No attempt was made to do this for other countries, because distinctions between official and unofficial blur a bit in the various political subdivisions within most countries. In the US all official time zone borders are well and clearly documented by a single source - the US Dept. of Transportation. But be aware that within an area where observed practice differs from official, there are often internal exceptions such as Polling places, Post Offices or other federal offices, and sometimes law enforcement or various other levels of government -- who may observe official time even if the rest of the community does not. Commonly bars or liquor stores in these areas observe official time. This can provide quite a competitive advantage for properly situated bars, when last-call sojourners migrate across an official time zone border to cadge one more hour of bliss. Cheers, Steve Jones

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