Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed
1) Since September 2011 - at least - there is disagreement between reported law and tzdb for current offsets in Bulunsky Ulus, Oymyakonsky Ulus, Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus which are located in Russia. On 2012-04-29 (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-April/017639.html) it was defined by a TZ maintainer that: "The first order of business is to ensure that current (2012) time stamps are handled correctly throughout Russia." So, I assume the below could fall under first order of business. 2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html 2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data Two zones are proposed in case the data is correct for the time before the decree took effect Asia/Khandyga (setup changed later) Asia/Ust-Nera containing Oymyakonsky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008799.html 2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008818.html 2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for Asia/Khandyga to only contain Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008836.html 2012-09-27 Arthur David Olson asks for old decree "Decree #725 indicates that it abrogates Decree #23 of January 8, 1992 (among other things abrogated); is the abrogated decree available online?" http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008898.html 2012-09-27 Sanjeev Gupta provides a link to the scan http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008899.html 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson makes some analysis of the data http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008933.html 2012-10-02 Yury Tarasievich clarifies that the sections contain border descriptions and additionally writes "BTW, the document only notes the possibility, but doesn't explicitly refer to the then actual (Soviet) practice for the large territories to observe the zonal time of the neighbouring timezone." http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008935.html Now follows my interpretation of http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 (granitsa mezhdy = border between) page 5 section about Zone 8 - Zone 9 border Zone 8/left: Bulunsky Raion Zone 9/right: Ust-Maysky Raion + Tomponsky Raion page 6 section about Zone 9 - Zone 10 border Zone 10/right: Oymyakonsky Raion Which, except for Bulunsky Raion, is what according to "tzdata2012c/europe" Oscar van Vlijmen did report, but no sources were cited for. That would mean that: A) two zones need to be created: Asia/Ust-Nera Oymyakonsky Ulus Asia/Khandyga Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus both zones observing a change in offset towards Moscow Time in September 2011, exact time see below. B) Bulunsky Ulus needs a fix. Either 2009-11-29 Oscar van Vlijmen report is correct, then a new zone is needed or it is not correct, then the report should be removed or marked deprecated and the data from the 1992 decree could be used for the time before the 2011 decree became effective. Time of change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 "Опубликован: "Российская Газета", No.197, 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: ~Published ..... 2011-09-06 "Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication." which would mean the law became effective 2011-09-13 a Tuesday. http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html "Дата первой официальной публикации: 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: First official publication 2011-09-06. Note: That all leaves out effects as mentioned in the above cited 2012-10-02 comment by Yury Tarasievich. Maybe there was no offset change relative to Moscow Time, so no zones are needed. But in absence of reports supporting deviation from the 1992 decree boundaries for any of the four raion/ulus I would follow the 1992 decreed zone boundaries. 2) Law 2011 Sakha Republic is split by decree #725 http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ between Zone 7 - Moscow Time + 6 ...Bulunskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij... Zone 8 - Moscow Time + 7 ...Ojmyakonskij... Zone 9 - Moscow Time + 8 3) TZDB 2012 tzdata2012c\europe splits Sakha as follows # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Aldanskij, Amginskij, Anabarskij, # Verkhnevilyujskij, Vilyujskij, Gornyj, # Zhiganskij, Kobyajskij, Lenskij, Megino-Kangalasskij, Mirninskij, # Namskij, Nyurbinskij, Olenyokskij, Olyokminskij, # Suntarskij, Tattinskij, Ust'-Aldanskij, Khangalasskij, # Churapchinskij, Eveno-Bytantajskij Natsional'nij. Zone Asia/Yakutsk (zone.tab: Moscow+06) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Bulunskij, Verkhoyanskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij, # Ust'-Yanskij. Zone Asia/Vladivostok (zone.tab: Moscow+07) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Abyjskij, Allaikhovskij, Verkhhhnekolymskij, Momskij, # Nizhnekolymskij, Ojmyakonskij, Srednekolymskij. Zone Asia/Magadan (zone.tab: Moscow+08) -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
On 2012/05/04 02:35 AM, Tobias Conradi wrote:
2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences [...] 2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data [...] 2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary [...] 2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for Asia/Khandyga to only contain Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky [...] 2012-09-27 Arthur David Olson asks for old decree [...] 2012-09-27 Sanjeev Gupta provides a link to the scan [...] 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson makes some analysis of the data [...] 2012-10-02 Yury Tarasievich clarifies that the sections contain border descriptions
Could I borrow your time machine? :-) -- -=( Ian Abbott @ MEV Ltd. E-mail: <abbotti@mev.co.uk> )=- -=( Tel: +44 (0)161 477 1898 FAX: +44 (0)161 718 3587 )=-
I'm trying to determine the instant when clocks in time-zone-shifting parts of Russia changed in September 2011, using sources provided by Alexander Krivenyshev and Tobias Conradi. One source is... http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ ...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Decree of August 31, 2011 No 725" and contains no other dates or "effective date" information. Another source is... http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html ...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Resolution of the Government of the Russian Federation on August 31, 2011 N 725" and also contains "Date first official publication: September 6, 2011 Posted on: in the "RG" - Federal Issue number 5573 September 6, 2011" but whcih does not contain any "effective date" information. Another source is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 ...which, in note 8, contains "Resolution #725 of August 31, 2011... Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication" but which does not contain any reference to September 6, 2011. The Wikipedia article refers to... http://base.consultant.ru/cons/cgi/online.cgi?req=doc;base=LAW;n=118896 ...which seems to copy the text of the government.ru page. Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's "on or after 7 days following the day of the official publication" with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to get September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias Conradi notes). None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks. Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day? Do any Russian newspapers front pages provide clues? Thanks for any light folks can shed. --ado
On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 04:06:42PM -0400, Arthur David Olson wrote:
I'm trying to determine the instant when clocks in time-zone-shifting parts of Russia changed in September 2011, using sources provided by Alexander Krivenyshev and Tobias Conradi.
One source is... http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ ...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Decree of August 31, 2011 No 725" and contains no other dates or "effective date" information.
Another source is... http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html ...which, according to translate.google.com, begins "Resolution of the Government of the Russian Federation on August 31, 2011 N 725" and also contains "Date first official publication: September 6, 2011 Posted on: in the "RG" - Federal Issue number 5573 September 6, 2011" but whcih does not contain any "effective date" information.
Another source is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 ...which, in note 8, contains "Resolution #725 of August 31, 2011... Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication" but which does not contain any reference to September 6, 2011.
According to the law (see http://base.garant.ru/10123081/ or http://base.consultant.ru/cons/cgi/online.cgi?req=doc;base=LAW;n=121781;fld=...) the date when the resolution come into effect depends whether it affects the rights, freedoms and duties of people. If yes, then it come into effect simultaneously on the entire territory of the Russian Federation upon the expiry of 7 days after the day of its first official publication, that is, after 6+7=13 of September. If no, then it come into effect from the date of signing, that is, August 31. From my PoV, it is the first case.
Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's "on or after 7 days following the day of the official publication" with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to get September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias Conradi notes).
None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks.
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?
Assuming that the day is "after September 13", one can suppose it should be 00:00 of September 14. -- ldv
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia: As a result [of decree #725] some districts of the Sakha Republic switched from Vladivostok Time to Yakutsk Time (Zone 7): Tomponsky District Ust-Maysky District Some districts switched from Magadan Time to Vladivostok Time: Oymyakonsky District (Sakha Republic) Kurilsky District and Yuzhno-Kurilsky District (Sakhalin Oblast) These switches are what would require clock changes; the question is, when did they change? --ado
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia:
As a result [of decree #725] some districts of the Sakha Republic switched from Vladivostok Time to Yakutsk Time (Zone 7): Tomponsky District Ust-Maysky District Some districts switched from Magadan Time to Vladivostok Time: Oymyakonsky District (Sakha Republic) Kurilsky District and Yuzhno-Kurilsky District (Sakhalin Oblast)
These switches are what would require clock changes; the question is, when did they change?
http://www.rosbalt.ru/main/2011/09/01/885098.html "From 2:00 am October 30, 2011 is proposed to transfer Primorsky Krai and the Republic of Sakha (Yakutia) for the seventh time zone (plus 6 hours to Moscow time), and the Irkutsk region - the fifth time zone (plus 4 hours to Moscow time). Today in these regions, the difference in time to Moscow more than one hour."
On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 08:09:59PM -0400, Andrew Paprocki wrote:
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Arthur David Olson wrote:
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Russia:
As a result [of decree #725] some districts of the Sakha Republic switched from Vladivostok Time to Yakutsk Time (Zone 7): Tomponsky District Ust-Maysky District Some districts switched from Magadan Time to Vladivostok Time: Oymyakonsky District (Sakha Republic) Kurilsky District and Yuzhno-Kurilsky District (Sakhalin Oblast)
These switches are what would require clock changes; the question is, when did they change?
http://www.rosbalt.ru/main/2011/09/01/885098.html
"From 2:00 am October 30, 2011 is proposed to transfer Primorsky Krai and the Republic of Sakha (Yakutia) for the seventh time zone (plus 6 hours to Moscow time), and the Irkutsk region - the fifth time zone (plus 4 hours to Moscow time). Today in these regions, the difference in time to Moscow more than one hour."
No, this article talks about a draft resolution (it used to be on http://www.minpromtorg.gov.ru/ site, now you can find its copy at http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_russia33.html), the final edition neither transfers Primorsky Krai and the Irkutsk region nor specifies the exact date and time of clock changes. -- ldv
On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 1:44 AM, Dmitry V. Levin <ldv@altlinux.org> wrote:
On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 04:06:42PM -0400, Arthur David Olson wrote: ...
Tobias Conradi combines Wikipedia's "on or after 7 days following the day of the official publication" with www.rg.ru's "Date of first official publication: September 6, 2011" to get September 13, 2011 as the cutover date (unusually, a Tuesday, as Tobias Conradi notes).
None of the sources indicates a time of day for changing clocks.
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever. It replaces old instructions, which can result in changes. Details supporting this have been provided at http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017688.html
Still, it can be wrong, but then it would be nice to see evidence for an error in the above reasoning.
Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day?
Assuming that the day is "after September 13", one can suppose it should be 00:00 of September 14. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_Russia DST changes have been carried out 02:00 local time.
So maybe the 00:00 is local time (before the change). But depending on the direction of the move that could mean a repetition of the time between 23:00 and 24:00 - has anyone seen that happening in Russia in the last 20 years? Maybe someone who can Google in Russian can search for changeover time, maybe trying to find 00:00 or 02:00? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
At 16:44 05-05-2012, Dmitry V. Levin wrote:
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
"Most countries set the clock back one hour Sunday 30 October 2011 at 3:00 to a time which actually is the standard time. Russia retains, however, the summer time (UTC+4)." http://russia-media.ru/miscellaneous/morenews.php?iditem=208 "Was scrapping winter time a good move" www.sptimes.ru/archive/pdf/1693.pdf Regards, -sm
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:50 AM, SM <sm@resistor.net> wrote:
At 16:44 05-05-2012, Dmitry V. Levin wrote:
I suppose there was no actual clock change. The resolution #725 is not about changing clocks, it contains no such instructions whatsoever.
"Most countries set the clock back one hour Sunday 30 October 2011 at 3:00 to a time which actually is the standard time. Russia retains, however, the summer time (UTC+4)." "Most countries" - I don't believe this.
Anyway this refers to DST change, not to decree #725 zone layout, so has no effect on the reasoning at http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017688.html which lead to the conclusion that three uluses in Sakha Republic behaved different to the other uluses in their respective tz zone.
http://russia-media.ru/miscellaneous/morenews.php?iditem=208
"Was scrapping winter time a good move"
www.sptimes.ru/archive/pdf/1693.pdf "He [=Putin] said that although Medvedev had signed the law, it hadn’t been prepared by the president himself and that it was possible that something had not been thought through completely. Putin added that he always finds it difficult to get up in the morning."
-- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day? Do any Russian newspapers front pages provide clues? Thanks for any light folks can shed.
Published on the BBC Ex-USSR newswire on September 11, 2011 was: "Programme summary of Khabarovsk's Guberniya TV weekly news 0800 GMT" "8. 1120 Soon Maritime Territory will become one hour closer to the Moscow time zone than Khabarovsk, presenter says. Correspondent details the changes in the time zones distribution in Russia over a map. Deputies of the regional legislative assembly lobbied for a six-hour difference with Moscow too, but fortunately, the region has preserved its status quo. Correspondent talks about other regions where a time shift has taken place. Video shows a deputy advocating a time shift for the territory and people protesting against the idea." Given that it says "Soon ... will become" on September 11th, that rules out September 6th. Although it does not explicitly say September 13th, that interpretation makes sense. -Andrew
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Andrew Paprocki <andrew@ishiboo.com> wrote:
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
Is September 13 the right date? What's the right time of day? Do any Russian newspapers front pages provide clues? Thanks for any light folks can shed.
Published on the BBC Ex-USSR newswire on September 11, 2011 was: "Programme summary of Khabarovsk's Guberniya TV weekly news 0800 GMT"
"8. 1120 Soon Maritime Territory will become one hour closer to the Moscow time zone than Khabarovsk, presenter says. Correspondent details the changes in the time zones distribution in Russia over a map. Deputies of the regional legislative assembly lobbied for a six-hour difference with Moscow too, but fortunately, the region has preserved its status quo. Correspondent talks about other regions where a time shift has taken place. Video shows a deputy advocating a time shift for the territory and people protesting against the idea."
Given that it says "Soon ... will become" on September 11th, that rules out September 6th. Although it does not explicitly say September 13th, that interpretation makes sense.
-Andrew
Also found this, indicating September 12th is the official date: http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/13/vremya.html "Yesterday came into force was published in the "Russian newspaper" September 6 government decree , under which the territory of Russia is set nine time zones, and transition to "winter" time is canceled." http://img.rg.ru/img/content/52/39/07/5579_3.gif
participants (6)
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Andrew Paprocki -
Arthur David Olson -
Dmitry V. Levin -
Ian Abbott -
SM -
Tobias Conradi