- tz - lists.iana.org

Re: [tz] [tzdb] Re: Dropping iso3166.tab
by random832＠fastmail.us May 23, 2013

May 23, 2013

On Thu, May 23, 2013, at 11:13, Tobias Conradi wrote: > IL-JM is for the Jerusalem District says > http://www.statoids.com/uil.html > > PS-JEM for the Jerusalem Governorate says > http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_3166-2_newsletter_ii-3_2011-12-13.pdf > > None is for the city. Both of them contain disputed territory - as far as I can tell, IL-JM consists of nothing but disputed territory.

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Re: [tz] tz Digest, Vol 20, Issue 28
by Shawn Steele May 21, 2013

May 21, 2013

> Say that Floofy (fl) and Fnord (fn) claim ownership of the large city of Fubar. I don't see anything > wrong with putting Fubar in fl and fn. This way people in Floofy and Fnord see the city they expect > to be there. And at the end of the day that's what tzinfo is for. Logically, that makes sense, however geopolitically, people will figure out a way to object. The Fnordians would complain that Fubar doesn't belong in Floofy because it's part of Fnord. How would you or I feel if New York showed up in Canada? At the very least you'd report the bug. If the vendor pushed back on the bug, we'd probably push back with "what, are you crazy? NY is clearly in the US, not Canada." Geopolitics isn't about logic. That said, it might be possible in some cases to attach a city to two region codes. Or to create two cities for the same place. > My goal is to reduce the political debate on this list, and leave it to the diplomats and the standards committees > that are under their control, to determine what is a country, and what city is in a country - > then reflect those decisions in the database. That works a bit. However it breaks down when someone wants to ship software that depends on the data. Then their customers push the same problems. And, note, that the IANA Timezone Database *IS* the standard, and we *ARE* the standard committee. It should be perfectly acceptable to point to ISO for the ISO standards though. The timezone data shouldn't pick & choose from other standards, if someone expresses a concern with another standard that the tzdb depends on, they should be pointed to the other standard to address it there. Worse, if someone objects to another standard's behavior, they could attempt to use the timezone effort to pressure the other standard, assuming they can get the timezone effort to see their viewpoint. IMO we should leave external standards alone, and focus on the timezone parts. A rather obvious alternate mapping would be to map to zones rather than cities, however that'd undoubtedly have it's own geopolitical problems. - Shawn

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Re: [tz] Dropping iso3166.tab
by Benjamin Kerensa May 21, 2013

May 21, 2013

On 05/20/13 22:27, Paul Eggert wrote: > I have been thinking of proposing to drop iso3166.tab from the > tz distribution, and to drop all uses of country codes. > This would help simplify maintenance, as it would mean > that the database would be unaffected by political > issues such as whether Kosovo is a country, what country > Jerusalem is in, what country Taipei is in, etc. The idea > is to simplify the database to help us focus on our charter > (namely, civil time) and to be less distracted by political > issues that do not affect the clocks. > > As part of this change, the first column of zone.tab > would change from its current role (a country code) > to be just a comment. > > I was thinking of changing the comment to be just "--", > for every entry in zone.tab. How would this change > affect FreeBSD's use of zone.tab? I'm unsure how this might affect FreeBSD but notably some Linux Distros including Ubuntu use this data and it could possibly impact Ubuntu's ubiquity installer. -- Benjamin Kerensa http://benjaminkerensa.com "I am what I am because of who we all are" - Ubuntu

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Re: [tz] Dropping iso3166.tab [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]
by Timothy Arceri May 20, 2013

May 20, 2013

> Please don't drop it. PHP's date/time support makes use of the country codes to allow selection of possible timezones per country: > http://us2.php.net/manual/en/datetimezone.listidentifiers.php I'm pretty sure Ubuntus installer (ubiquity) does the same thing.

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Re: [tz] Proposal to use Asia/Tel_Aviv for Israel - Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as part of Israel
by Ephraim Silverberg May 13, 2013

May 13, 2013

With regard to the populations of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, there are two municipal entities: the Municipality of Jerusalem and the Municipality of Tel-Aviv-Jafo (note that Tel-Aviv and Jafo are one municipal entity so perhaps Asia/Tel_Aviv_Jafo would be a better way to express this alias to Asia/Jerusalem) -- see http://www.tel-aviv.gov.il/ There concepts Greater/Metro Jerusalem and Greater/Metro Tel-Aviv are literary and, perhaps, political concepts but do not represent any real municipal boundaries. The term "Greater Jerusalem" would include cities such as Bethlehem, Mevaseret Zion and perhaps the "E1" areas between Jerusalem and Ma'ale Adumin. So too "Greater Tel Aviv" would include the adjacent cities Givatayim, Ramat Gan, Bnei Brak and perhaps Petach Tikva. However, these concepts have no actual governing bodies and each of the adjacent cities have there own distinct and independent municipality. The Central Bureau of Statistics records the population of Jerusalem as 772,982 while the population of Tel-Aviv-Jafo is 403,738. The whole discussion of the de jure status of Jerusalem is disingenuous since the vast majority of the world countries de facto have regarded the west portion of Jerusalem not only as part of Israel but the seat of its government since February 1949. Foreign dignitaries and heads of state are received at government offices in western Jerusalem. Presidents Carter, Clinton and George W. Bush have addressed the Knesset directly as well as German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Moreover, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat addressed the Knesset in November 1977 _prior_ to the signing of the Camp David peace accords. All ambassadors to Israel present their credentials to Israel's President at the Presidential Residence in western Jerusalem. It is correct that most foreign officials avoiding meeting Israeli officials at offices in eastern Jerusalem although this rule too has its exceptions as in the case of Canada's Foreign Minister John Baird meeting with Israel's Justice Minister Tzipi Livni at her eastern Jerusalem office last month. I could bring a wealth of quotes that foreign officials have stated with regard to Jerusalem and western Jerusalem in particular over the years. However, I regards this forum as a professional forum for discussing timezone changes past, present and future as well as the maintenance of the timezone files themselves and the C code for the timezone software and, hence, view all discussions of a political nature as raising the noise/signal ration here. There are a plethora of forums for debating such issues for those who wish to do so. _____________________________________ Ephraim Silverberg, CSE System Group, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel. Phone/Fax number: +972-2-5494521

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Old CLDR tz chart link in tz-link.htm
by yoshito_umaoka＠us.ibm.com May 10, 2013

May 10, 2013

tz-link.html in tzcode2013c contains a link to the CLDR tzid chart page as below: <li>Some Microsoft Windows versions contain time zone information in an undocumented format, with IDs that can be mapped to <code>TZ</code> values using the <a href=" http://unicode.org/repos/cldr-tmp/trunk/diff/supplemental/zone_tzid.html ">Zone → Tzid table</a> maintained by the <abbr title="Common Locale Data Repository">CLDR</abbr> data mentioned below.</li> The URL is not permanent (cldr-tmp) and the linked page contains out of date information (CLDR 21 - latest version is 23). The correct URL is http://unicode.org/cldr/charts/supplemental/zone_tzid.html Please fix the link in the next tz version. Thanks, Yoshito

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Re: [tz] Proposal to use Asia/Tel_Aviv for Israel - Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as part of Israel
by Marc Lehmann May 9, 2013

May 9, 2013

On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 05:15:04PM -0400, random832(a)fastmail.us wrote: > On Tue, May 7, 2013, at 16:01, Marc Lehmann wrote: > > Yes, at least one timezone exists for any region, by definition, as > > long as that region actually has a physical location, as the timezone > > identifiers are meant to (roughly) identify the largest city within a > > region (where region is not defined by political boundaries). > > This is where you are mistaken. You surely have some evidence to back this up? The timezone database has always defined timezone regions that way. Saying it ain't so doesn't make it so. > The regions are _absolutely_ defined by political boundaries. It's why That is your _goal_, yes, but where does it say so? For one thing, the ISO 3166 codes do not define regions nor political boundaries, nor do the timezone identifier define political boundaries (but regions). It really seems to me that you want to unilaterally redefine the meaning of timezones and regions to further your political agenda - if you interpret the timezone database data traditionally and without prejuduice it doesn't say what you wish it to say. The political interpretation of the data is yours alone. -- The choice of a Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG -----==- _GNU_ http://www.deliantra.net ----==-- _ generation ---==---(_)__ __ ____ __ Marc Lehmann --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / schmorp(a)schmorp.de -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\

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Proposal to use Asia/Tel_Aviv for Israel - Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as part of Israel
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2013

May 8, 2013

== Current IANA time zone database situation == ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/zone.tab contains one zone for ISO country code "IL" named Asia/Jerusalem. IL decodes to ISRAEL http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/country_codes/iso-3166-1_decoding_tab… == Problem == Jerusalem is internationally not recognized as part of Israel. Using Jerusalem as reference location for Israel in the IANA time zone database may thus violate UN resolutions. == Solution == ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/code/Theory reads "Use the most populous among locations in a country's time zone", this seems to be Tel Aviv. That would mean using Asia/Tel_Aviv. == Information on the status of Jerusalem == No UN member has an embassy in Jerusalem says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem There is no UN LOCODE for Jerusalem in the IL-file: http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/cefact/locode/il.htm The page http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ links to "The Status of Jerusalem" http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch12.pdf The penultimate paragraph reads: "The General Assembly revisited the question of Jerusalem at its fifty-fifth session. In a resolution adopted on 1 December 2000, the Assembly determined that the decision of Israel to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem was illegal and, therefore, null and void. The Assembly also deplored the transfer by some States of their diplomatic missions to Jerusalem in violation of Security Council resolution 478 (1980)." The UN SC Resolution 478 can be found at http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1980/scres80.htm -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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tabs vs spaces
by David Muir Sharnoff May 8, 2013

May 8, 2013

I wanted to extract some of the data from the timezone files so I wrote a quick parser for them. In the process I discovered 1,477 lines that have spaces where they should have tabs. Do you care? If so, do you want to fix them with (a) my fixup script (b) a patch that I generate; (c) by hand -- I can list the file names and line numbers? -Dave

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Israel
by David Patte ₯ May 7, 2013

May 7, 2013

I will suggest, as I did a month ago for Australia, that we prepare an alternate patch for the tz database - this time for Israel. We can prepare it offline, to cut down on the noise here, and submit it for approval to the maintainers of the tz database, for their perusal. In the mean time, I am willing to host the preparation and patch on my own site and ftp server. The goal in the patch will be to try to follow the decisions re Jerusalem mandated by the UN security council, the UN general assembly, and accepted by all countries in the world (save Israel), which is to consider Israel's unilateral declaration of Jerusalem as its own as 'null and void', and fully remove Jerusalem as being listed within Israel. Those that consider this decision valuable could then apply it to the tz database themselves. Please contact me offline if you would like more information on how to contribute to this patch, or how to access the result.

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Re: [tz] Proposal to use Asia/Tel_Aviv for Israel - Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as part of Israel
by SM May 7, 2013

May 7, 2013

Hi Malcolm, At 09:55 07-05-2013, Wallace, Malcolm wrote: >One technical point worth considering is that a goodly proportion of >the clocks in Jerusalem do not show the time that the tz database >would claim they do. Given rough current estimates that the Arab >population of (East) Jerusalem is upwards of 35%, and the likelihood >that many of their clocks follow the Palestinian rules for DST >rather than the Israeli rules, it seems awkward and inaccurate to >use the name of the city for one set of rules but not the other. Thanks for the link. It's difficult to pick a source from that part of the world without bias. It's an unusual case. It's easier to leave it as it is until someone figures out how people at that location keep track of time. Regards, -sm

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Tobias Conradi blocked for six months
by Paul Eggert May 5, 2013

May 5, 2013

Recent emails to the tz mailing list by Tobias Conradi are an inappropriate and disruptive use of the list. I privately warned him about this earlier, to no avail. I will therefore block him posting for a period of six months.

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suprfsat@hotmail.com - Fwd:
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

And this was the first. I assume they are all from Paul Eggert. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: supr fsat <suprfsat(a)hotmail.com> Date: Sat, May 26, 2012 at 8:33 PM Subject: To: tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com shut the fuck up -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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suprfsat@hotmail.com - Fwd: you fucking psychopath
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

Is this email coming from Paul Eggert? Last time I got such an email around the time my emails got censored by the tz mailing list administrators. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: supr fsat <suprfsat(a)hotmail.com> Date: Sat, May 4, 2013 at 9:13 PM Subject: you fucking psychopath To: Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> don't you have a life? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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History of zone name changes
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

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suprfsat@hotmail.com Fwd: ACTIONS
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

That was the last email by suprfsat(a)hotmail.com before the one I received today. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: supr fsat <suprfsat(a)hotmail.com> Date: Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 2:44 PM Subject: ACTIONS To: tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com CONSEQUENCES -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Position of Arthur David Olson and Paul Eggert regarding the status of Jerusalem
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

1) https://github.com/eggert/tz/commit/65a7988fe8b4007023ef2130064421eacd263e4c says "Arthur David Olson authored 17 years ago" "+IL +3146+03514 Asia/Jerusalem most locations" Was Arthur David Olson the one who first declared Jerusalem to be Israel territory? Maybe the one who put that in, could state the reasons for doing so and provide a patch if he thinks this should be changed now. 2) The current IANA time zone database maintainer is Paul Eggert. There is no reply to the proposal to change the zone identifying location for the Israel zone from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2013-April/019134.html "Proposal to use Asia/Tel_Aviv for Israel - Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as part of Israel" Does Paul Eggert endorse the decision to have Jerusalem (in fact even parts or all of East Jerusalem) declared Israel territory in the IANA time zone database? If so, what is the reason? Support of occupation, annexation and population exchange? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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East Jerusalem as Israel territory in IANA zone.tab, demographics since occupation by Israel
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/zone.tab has IL +3146+03514 Asia/Jerusalem http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%2B31deg+46N+%2B035+deg+14E computes 31.7667°N, 35.2333°E https://maps.google.com/maps?q=31.7667,35.2333 shows a dashed line labeled "1949 Armistice Agreement Line" to the West of that location. ------ http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/f45643a78fcba719852560f6005987ad/3077feeb… "The 1967 census conducted by the Israeli authorities indicated that 66,000 Palestinians resided in East Jerusalem, 44,000 of whom resided in the area known before the June war as East Jerusalem and 22,000 in the West Bank area annexed after the war. At the time there were a few hundred Jews living in East Jerusalem. In June 1993, the Israeli Government was able to proudly announce that a Jewish majority had been achieved in East Jerusalem; at the same time, 155,000 Jews were officially-registered residents, as compared to 150,000 Palestinians." ------- -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Re: [tz] tabs vs spaces
by Shawn Steele May 4, 2013

May 4, 2013

> Actually, I suggest that we should really be discouraging people from creating alternate parsers for the zone input files than zic - those two should remain closely tied together. From time to time we discover the need to add some new feature to the input language, doing that is really hard if all kinds of other implementations will suddenly break. That makes it even harder? Because presumably the code behavior changes too, which would be harder to adapt to. IMO this seems like a further argument for XML as it's pretty easy to extend some things w/o breaking other stuff > Further, the input file format is rather quirky, and hard to explain completely in a way that makes a lot of sense (though it is perfectly fine for zic). I don't find that comforting or reassuring. -Shawn

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Re: [tz] tabs vs spaces
by SM May 3, 2013

May 3, 2013

At 09:36 03-05-2013, random832(a)fastmail.us wrote: >The RFC itself is very inadequate to the task. It does not once define >what "the TZ database" actually contains, or the format of any files >within. To the extent that it defines it by reference, one could >interpret it as giving official standing to all of the documentation >files within the project. Or maybe all that authority is delegated to >the TZ coordinator. Please do not consider anything in this message as authoritative. The RFC was written to find a host for the TZ database. The TZ coordinator keeps things running. Regards, -sm

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Re: [tz] Ambiguous abbreviations for Australian timezones when daylight savings is in affect
by Tobias Conradi May 3, 2013

May 3, 2013

On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu> wrote: > For example, you gave a link to the > NSW Dept of Attorney General & Justice saying that in summer, eastern time > is abbreviated "AEDT". But that very web page also says, in another > place, that the abbreviation is "EDST". So this single source contradicts > the assertion that abbreviations are consistently used by the NSW > government. > > Here's that URL again: > > http://www.communityrelations.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/cru/daylight/definitions_o… > > And the EDST-related quote from that page: > > "Daylight saving or summer time is commonly expressed as EDST (Eastern Daylight Saving Time)." For the record: 2013-03-31 Tobias Conradi sent via http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/feedback/LawlinkCaselawFeedback.nsf/frmWebFee… --------------- Two abbreviations used for what looks like one thing at http://www.communityrelations.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/cru/daylight/definitions_o… 1) EDST: Daylight saving or summer time is commonly expressed as EDST (Eastern Daylight Saving Time). 2) AEDT: NSW, ACT,Vic and Tas move from AEST to Australian Eastern Daylight Time (AEDT), ... --------------- 2013-04-30 communityrelations.lawlink.nsw.gov.au emailed (to a wrong email address, so that's why I sent it today): --------------- 30/04/2013 10:54 AM Please respond to .... agd.nsw.gov.au To .... tobiasconradi.com cc Subject Your online feedback about daylight saving (matter13/002220) Dear Mr Conradi Thank you for the feedback, which you submitted regarding abbreviations that are used on the Department's website for daylight saving. You may be interested to know that the Department has noted your concerns and has updated its website accordingly. Thank you for taking the time to make your concerns known. .... Yours faithfully for Director Community Relations Unit NSW Department of Attorney General & Justice Locked Bag 5111, Parramatta NSW 2124 ....... --------------- -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Fwd: offtopic? csail.mit.edu - tabs vs spaces
by Tobias Conradi May 3, 2013

May 3, 2013

Garrett Wollman has question that involves copyright. I am not a lawyer, maybe someone else can help. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Garrett Wollman <wollman(a)csail.mit.edu> Date: Fri, May 3, 2013 at 1:37 AM Subject: [tz] offtopic? csail.mit.edu - tabs vs spaces To: Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> <<On Fri, 3 May 2013 01:10:29 +0200, Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> said: > Can someone help GAWollman how to only get emails that he wants? What part of "do not post private email to public mailing-lists without the copyright owner's permission" don't you understand? -GAWollman -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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offtopic? csail.mit.edu - tabs vs spaces
by Tobias Conradi May 2, 2013

May 2, 2013

Can someone help GAWollman how to only get emails that he wants? On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 1:03 AM, Garrett Wollman <wollman(a)csail.mit.edu> wrote: > <<On Fri, 3 May 2013 00:53:22 +0200, Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> said: > >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Garrett Wollman <wollman(a)csail.mit.edu> wrote: >>> <<On Thu, 2 May 2013 22:18:50 +0200, Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> said: >>> >>>>> you seem to be >>>>> being deliberately disingenuous. >>>> To you. >>> >>> No, to everyone. >> Not to me. > >>> Please go away. >> What BCP or Theory rule you are referring to? > > There is no BCP rule that says "don't be a twit in public"; you are > expected to have learned this in primary school. > >>> You are wasting everyone's valuable >>> time and attention. >> You cannot know that. > > You are certainly wasting my valuable time and attention, and I don't > believe that I am atypical. > > I do not recall giving you permission to repost my email to a public > mailing-list. > > -GAWollman -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Re: [tz] tabs vs spaces
by Tobias Conradi May 2, 2013

May 2, 2013

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Garrett Wollman <wollman(a)csail.mit.edu> wrote: > <<On Thu, 2 May 2013 22:18:50 +0200, Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> said: > >>> you seem to be >>> being deliberately disingenuous. >> To you. > > No, to everyone. Not to me. > Please go away. What BCP or Theory rule you are referring to? > You are wasting everyone's valuable > time and attention. You cannot know that. > -GAWollman -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Russian Asia/Khandyga Asia/Ust-Nera
by Marvel, Jim (CPCOE) April 30, 2013

April 30, 2013

Hi, Will there be a new shapefile due to the tz_data change? Thanks Jim Marvel Software Engineer II Honeywell ESEA/CMS/CP/CoE 8323 Lindbergh Court Sarasota FL 34243 Phone - 941.360.6209 (alt: 941.360.6213) Fax - 941.355.9241 Jim.Marvel(a)Honeywell.com<mailto:nancy.ramm@honeywell.com>

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