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Fw: Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading [RECAP]
by Benny Feb. 14, 2013

Feb. 14, 2013

Sorry if this topic has been discussed many times before: [1] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2002-February/011863.html Indonesia time zones [2] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2002-March/011897.html indonesia time zone correction [3] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.devel.glibc/8955/focus=283 [4] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2008-November/015288.html Incorrect time zone abbreviations for Indonesia [5] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-April/015565.html Jakarta is Indonesia West Time Not Central Time [6] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015626.html [7] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015627.html [8] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015628.html [9] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015629.html [10] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015633.html and elsewhere Arthur David Olson[6] commented: The challenge here is that abbreviations of English-language names are used consistently for time zones around the globe. For Indonesia we have abbreviations WIT (Western Indonesian Time), CIT (Central Indonesian Time), and EIT (Eastern Indonesian Time). Improvidently, one of these English-language abbreviations (WIT) is also the native-language abbreviation of a different time zone. There's been discussion on the mailing list in the past about abbreviations; past consensus was that producing native-language abbreviations was an internationalization matter rather than a time zone matter. A case could be made for translating the native time zone names (Waktu Indonesia Barat, Waktu Indonesia Tengah, and Waktu Indonesia Timur) into English and using abbreviations based on the translated names. While I understand the need for English abbreviation, but in Indonesian case, it's misleading and thus have an undesirable effect, that is confusing to some people that's not aware that the acronym is in English. As for the Indonesian acronym, I think there's no question anymore about its validity (attested by http://time.kim.lipi.go.id/, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indonesia, and others) As for the English names, I propose they're changed into Western Time of Indonesia (WTI), Central Time of Indonesia (CTI), Eastern Time of Indonesia (CTI). According to http://www.statoids.com/tid.html the English equivalent (translation) are: Western Indonesia Standard Time (WIST), Central Indonesia Standard Time (CIST), Eastern Indonesia Standard Time (EIST). Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indonesia#Historical_usage) noted on the history of [[Time in Indonesia]]: Jakarta Standard Time (JST), Bali Standard Time (BST), Jayapura Time (JT) respectively. Tim Diggins[8] asked and replied by Robert Elz[9]: | Maybe I'm missing something - can someone explain what the | abbreviations are used for They're just part of the standard output data that the ctime() related functions are expected to provide. As you noted, the abbreviations themselves are essentially useless, and applications using them for any more than decoration are generally broken, but what applications decide to do is outside our control. A TZ abbreviation has been available from libc essentially forever, and we need to keep on providing one. But in our case with Wikipedia, it's not just for decoration purposes. As you might already know, Wikipedia translated the interface into many languages, and in the case of Indonesian Wikipedias (there are many editions of them), the discussion in article talk pages and user talk pages are done by people who left their signatures (name and timestamp), which carries the aforementioned "WIT", and has led to some unexplained confusion. Therefore we're asking it to be changed if possible. ___________________ Regards, benny ________________________________ From: Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> To: "tz(a)iana.org" <tz(a)iana.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:17 PM Subject: [tz] Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading The acronym used in Asia/Jakarta timezone is WIT (Western Indonesian Time), where in Indonesian language, WIT means Waktu Indonesia Timur (Eastern Indonesian Time), so it's rather confusing, especially if the conversation (say in Indonesian Wikipedia) is done in Indonesian language, and the user add a signature with the timemark, it will assume WIT is the Indonesian abbreviation, which is of course not. Noted in: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44758 First noted in: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=791 (2005) ___________________ Regards, benny

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Busingen revisited
by Arthur David Olson Feb. 14, 2013

Feb. 14, 2013

With the new year, a revised attempt to handle the German exclave of Busingen (which followed Zurich rather than Berlin in 1980). These changes are relative to the latest github.com/eggert/tz versions; they are both below (with tabs mangled) and attached. --ado *** old/europe 2013-01-07 08:05:19.093905100 -0500 --- europe 2013-01-07 08:13:01.260316900 -0500 *************** *** 1239,1244 **** --- 1239,1265 ---- 1:00 Germany CE%sT 1980 1:00 EU CE%sT + # From Tobias Conradi (2011-09-12): + # The German enclave of Büsingen + # <a href=http://www.buesingen.de> + # (http://www.buesingen.de) + # </a> + # surrounded by the Swiss canton Schaffhausen, + # did not start observing DST in 1980 as the rest of DE + # (West Germany at that time) and DD (East Germany at that time) did. + # DD merged into DE, the area is currently covered by code DE in ISO 3166-1, + # which in turn is covered by the zone Europe/Berlin. + # + # Source for the time in Büsingen 1980: + # <a href=" http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=c012c029-03b7-4c2b-9164-aa5902cd58d3"> + # http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=c012c029-03b7-4c2b-9164-aa5902cd58d3 + # </a> + + # From Arthur David Olson (2012-03-03): + # Büsingen and Zurich have shared clocks since 1970. + + Link Europe/Zurich Europe/Busingen + # Georgia # Please see the "asia" file for Asia/Tbilisi. # Herodotus (Histories, IV.45) says Georgia north of the Phasis (now Rioni) *** old/zone.tab 2013-01-07 08:05:21.511909300 -0500 --- zone.tab 2013-01-07 08:18:15.587807500 -0500 *************** *** 159,165 **** CX -1025+10543 Indian/Christmas CY +3510+03322 Asia/Nicosia CZ +5005+01426 Europe/Prague ! DE +5230+01322 Europe/Berlin DJ +1136+04309 Africa/Djibouti DK +5540+01235 Europe/Copenhagen DM +1518-06124 America/Dominica --- 159,166 ---- CX -1025+10543 Indian/Christmas CY +3510+03322 Asia/Nicosia CZ +5005+01426 Europe/Prague ! DE +5230+01322 Europe/Berlin Germany except Busingen ! DE +4742+00841 Europe/Busingen Busingen Germany DJ +1136+04309 Africa/Djibouti DK +5540+01235 Europe/Copenhagen DM +1518-06124 America/Dominica

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Re: [tz] Fw: Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading [RECAP]
by Benny Feb. 14, 2013

Feb. 14, 2013

Nope, I didn't know about that. They would be good substitute acronyms to use. Thanks for the information.I'll add some information about this WIB/WIT confusion to the tango.info/wiki later today. ___________________ Regards, benny ________________________________ From: Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> To: Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [tz] Fw: Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading [RECAP] > As for the English names, I propose they're changed into Western Time of > Indonesia (WTI), Central Time of Indonesia (CTI), Eastern Time of Indonesia > (CTI). Did you consider https://tango.info/wiki/Internationalized_time_point_unique_time_zone_abbre… ? Which could be: IDWT IDCT IDET ? For comparison Australia: AUET AUCT AUWT United States: USET USCT USPT Europe: EUCT EUET EUWT -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Re: [tz] Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading
by Benny Feb. 14, 2013

Feb. 14, 2013

We're talking in the specific context here, Indonesian audience, and they know what WIB means, in your language: UTC+7; they only know one WIT, that is UTC+9. They don't know that WIT is UTC+7 in English language, and basically, no one ever regulate WIT is Western Indonesian Time, hence WIT is always Waktu Indonesia Timur in this context. Here we're talking privately, I've posted my suggestion on the tz mailing-list (it should have been posted yesterday, only today I found out that I pressed reply, and replied to myself, instead of to the mailing-list. Some weird setting on the mailing list, the reply-to is not set correctly to reply to the mailing-list. Thus today I've forwarded it again to the list. You should have received it by now). Instead of replying to me, I'd prefer discuss it with the whole list members. ___________________ Regards, benny ________________________________ From: Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> To: Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [tz] Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading > Most people doesn't know what UTC+7 means, they need something that would > make more sense, thus the acronym of the timezone, I bet 1000 USD, that for any acronym most people would not know that it identifies an Indonesian time zone. > thus the WIB/WIT problem. > I've posted a recap of past discussion (sorry for double posting), and > suggest a change in the English abbreviation. Does your suggestion include a proposal for a new abbreviation? Is that somewhere online? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com Most people doesn't know what UTC+7 means, they need something that would make more sense, thus the acronym of the timezone, thus the WIB/WIT problem. I've posted a recap of past discussion (sorry for double posting), and suggest a change in the English abbreviation. ___________________ Regards, benny ________________________________ From: Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> To: Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [tz] Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading > That's not the normal way to do it. Maybe. If everyone would do what is normal, there would be no innovation. > It doesn't solve the problem. The problem was posted as: "When setting a wiki's timezone to Asia/Jakarta (UTC+7), signatures get marked with (WIT)" I suggested to remove WIT. Where do you think this "doesn't solve the problem"? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com That's not the normal way to do it. It doesn't solve the problem. ___________________ Regards, benny ________________________________ From: Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> To: Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [tz] Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading "When setting a wiki's timezone to Asia/Jakarta (UTC+7), signatures get marked with (WIT)" Change the MediaWiki marker? This also affects other languages/regions where markers might be meaningless to locals. Write "UTC+7" and done? Tobias On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > The acronym used in Asia/Jakarta timezone is WIT (Western Indonesian Time), > where in Indonesian language, WIT means Waktu Indonesia Timur (Eastern > Indonesian Time), so it's rather confusing, especially if the conversation > (say in Indonesian Wikipedia) is done in Indonesian language, and the user > add a signature with the timemark, it will assume WIT is the Indonesian > abbreviation, which is of course not. > > Noted in: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44758 > First noted in: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=791 (2005) > > ___________________ > > Regards, > benny -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Fw: Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading [RECAP]
by Benny Feb. 14, 2013

Feb. 14, 2013

Sorry if this topic has been discussed many times before: [1] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2002-February/011863.html Indonesia time zones [2] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2002-March/011897.html indonesia time zone correction [3] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.devel.glibc/8955/focus=283 [4] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2008-November/015288.html Incorrect time zone abbreviations for Indonesia [5] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-April/015565.html Jakarta is Indonesia West Time Not Central Time [6] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015626.html [7] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015627.html [8] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015628.html [9] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015629.html [10] http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-May/015633.html and elsewhere Arthur David Olson[6] commented: The challenge here is that abbreviations of English-language names are used consistently for time zones around the globe. For Indonesia we have abbreviations WIT (Western Indonesian Time), CIT (Central Indonesian Time), and EIT (Eastern Indonesian Time). Improvidently, one of these English-language abbreviations (WIT) is also the native-language abbreviation of a different time zone. There's been discussion on the mailing list in the past about abbreviations; past consensus was that producing native-language abbreviations was an internationalization matter rather than a time zone matter. A case could be made for translating the native time zone names (Waktu Indonesia Barat, Waktu Indonesia Tengah, and Waktu Indonesia Timur) into English and using abbreviations based on the translated names. While I understand the need for English abbreviation, but in Indonesian case, it's misleading and thus have an undesirable effect, that is confusing to some people that's not aware that the acronym is in English. As for the Indonesian acronym, I think there's no question anymore about its validity (attested by http://time.kim.lipi.go.id/, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indonesia, and others) As for the English names, I propose they're changed into Western Time of Indonesia (WTI), Central Time of Indonesia (CTI), Eastern Time of Indonesia (CTI). According to http://www.statoids.com/tid.html the English equivalent (translation) are: Western Indonesia Standard Time (WIST), Central Indonesia Standard Time (CIST), Eastern Indonesia Standard Time (EIST). Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indonesia#Historical_usage) noted on the history of [[Time in Indonesia]]: Jakarta Standard Time (JST), Bali Standard Time (BST), Jayapura Time (JT) respectively. Tim Diggins[8] asked and replied by Robert Elz[9]: | Maybe I'm missing something - can someone explain what the | abbreviations are used for They're just part of the standard output data that the ctime() related functions are expected to provide. As you noted, the abbreviations themselves are essentially useless, and applications using them for any more than decoration are generally broken, but what applications decide to do is outside our control. A TZ abbreviation has been available from libc essentially forever, and we need to keep on providing one. But in our case with Wikipedia, it's not just for decoration purposes. As you might already know, Wikipedia translated the interface into many languages, and in the case of Indonesian Wikipedias (there are many editions of them), the discussion in article talk pages and user talk pages are done by people who left their signatures (name and timestamp), which carries the aforementioned "WIT", and has led to some unexplained confusion. Therefore we're asking it to be changed if possible. ___________________ Regards, benny ________________________________ From: Benny <bknliem(a)yahoo.com> To: "tz(a)iana.org" <tz(a)iana.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:17 PM Subject: [tz] Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading The acronym used in Asia/Jakarta timezone is WIT (Western Indonesian Time), where in Indonesian language, WIT means Waktu Indonesia Timur (Eastern Indonesian Time), so it's rather confusing, especially if the conversation (say in Indonesian Wikipedia) is done in Indonesian language, and the user add a signature with the timemark, it will assume WIT is the Indonesian abbreviation, which is of course not. Noted in: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44758 First noted in: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=791 (2005) ___________________ Regards, benny

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Asia/Jakarta timezone acronym is misleading
by Benny Feb. 13, 2013

Feb. 13, 2013

The acronym used in Asia/Jakarta timezone is WIT (Western Indonesian Time), where in Indonesian language, WIT means Waktu Indonesia Timur (Eastern Indonesian Time), so it's rather confusing, especially if the conversation (say in Indonesian Wikipedia) is done in Indonesian language, and the user add a signature with the timemark, it will assume WIT is the Indonesian abbreviation, which is of course not. Noted in: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44758 First noted in: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=791 (2005) ___________________ Regards, benny

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Russia plans to switch back to the "permanent winter time" in 2013
by Alexander Krivenyshev Feb. 7, 2013

Feb. 7, 2013

According to the Russian news: http://izvestia.ru/news/544409 Russia plans to switch back to the "permanent winter time" by the end of the year (2013). New bill will be introduce to the State Duma shortly. (in Russian) http://izvestia.ru/news/544409 or http://www.worldtimezone.com/dst_news/dst_news_russia053.html Alexander Krivenyshev, http://www.worldtimezone.com

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Re: [tz] A simple JavaScript library for timezone handling
by Shawn Steele Feb. 3, 2013

Feb. 3, 2013

FWIW: The ECMAScript folks are working on globalization stuff for JavaScript, including looking at timezones... Of course creating new standards and getting them implemented takes a while, but I thought I'd mention it... -Shawn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. David Baron" <dbaron(a)dbaron.org> Subject: [tz] A simple JavaScript library for timezone handling To: tz(a)iana.org A while ago I wrote a simple JavaScript library for timezone handling in JavaScript. It provides a simple API described here: https://github.com/dbaron/tz.js/blob/3489978e9422c49f1bb4aafdfeee429a3e6651… and has build scripts to convert the necessary data from the tz database into JSON format to include in the script. The end result including the code and the data, gzip-compressed, is about 74 KB. I keep hoping I'd get a chance to make some additional improvements before announcing it, but that served only to delay announcing it and not to lead to additional improvements. Since it might be useful to others in its current form, I thought I'd share it on this list. It is: https://github.com/dbaron/tz.js -David

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A simple JavaScript library for timezone handling
by L. David Baron Feb. 3, 2013

Feb. 3, 2013

A while ago I wrote a simple JavaScript library for timezone handling in JavaScript. It provides a simple API described here: https://github.com/dbaron/tz.js/blob/3489978e9422c49f1bb4aafdfeee429a3e6651… and has build scripts to convert the necessary data from the tz database into JSON format to include in the script. The end result including the code and the data, gzip-compressed, is about 74 KB. I keep hoping I'd get a chance to make some additional improvements before announcing it, but that served only to delay announcing it and not to lead to additional improvements. Since it might be useful to others in its current form, I thought I'd share it on this list. It is: https://github.com/dbaron/tz.js -David -- 𝄞 L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/ 𝄂 𝄢 Mozilla http://www.mozilla.org/ 𝄂

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Rule names
by Osko, Galatea Feb. 1, 2013

Feb. 1, 2013

Can anyone please advise on where I can find the Rule name history for each country/region? The data I'm interested in is as follows: - AQ, Oz: I don't know to which area/country this is referring to as it is not listed on tiscali - C-Eur, E-EurAsia - are these valid/active rule names in use? or used parallel? not sure if any of them is a historic name for Europe that's why I'm looking for archived rule names. I believe some of these were used up to some point in the past and then switched to a new name... And I also have some other countries like Pakistan, Palestine where I would like to check the DST history. ________________________________ NOTICE: Morgan Stanley is not acting as a municipal advisor and the opinions or views contained herein are not intended to be, and do not constitute, advice within the meaning of Section 975 of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. If you have received this communication in error, please destroy all electronic and paper copies and notify the sender immediately. Mistransmission is not intended to waive confidentiality or privilege. Morgan Stanley reserves the right, to the extent permitted under applicable law, to monitor electronic communications. This message is subject to terms available at the following link: http://www.morganstanley.com/disclaimers If you cannot access these links, please notify us by reply message and we will send the contents to you. By messaging with Morgan Stanley you consent to the foregoing.

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