- tz - lists.iana.org

Re: week starts at Sunday or Monday??
by Dik.Winter＠cwi.nl Oct. 2, 2000

Oct. 2, 2000

> > 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ... well - I've never heard about "the 0-st". > > Enumerating starting with zero seems to have come in vogue with C, > There's been a Zero Church Street in Cambridge, Mass., for a good deal > longer than there's been a C programming language. Blame the > mathematicians. The Indian calendars use a large number of counting years. Some of those start with 0, others with 1. This even predates Cambridge, Mass.. dik

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Re: week starts at Sunday or Monday??
by Peter Ilieve Oct. 2, 2000

Oct. 2, 2000

Christoph Bugel wrote: > > so my question is.... > now that I decided that days are niumbere 1 to 7, > what is day 1 ??? > is it Sunday, or Monday? > what is the Right Thing to do? The document by Gary Houston describing the ISO 8601:1988 date/time representations that is available at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/iso8601.ps.gz contains this paragraph: An ordinal date is identified by a given day in a given year. A week is identified by its number in a given year. A week begins with a Monday, and the first week of a year is the one which includes the first Thursday, or equivalently the one which includes January 4. Midnight may be expressed as either 00:00:00 or 24:00:00. Peter Ilieve peter(a)aldie.co.uk

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share/zoneinfo/southamerica (Brazil saving update)
by Mario Sergio Fujikawa Ferreira Oct. 1, 2000

Oct. 1, 2000

Hi, I was informed this was the right place to inform this. If you are not, I both apologize and ask if you can direct this to the right person. I would like to report that the Light Time Saving estimates for Brazil are incorrect. The new correct time savings for this year are - begin 08 Oct 2000 00:00:00 - end 18 Feb 2001 00:00:00 Unfortunaly, it is not clear if the 2nd weekend of September will be the official beginning for consequent years. The same applies for the end date. Therefore, I would advise maintaining the actual policy, yet adding this year's information. By the way, no states were removed or added in this latest decree. --- southamerica Fri Apr 7 01:20:30 2000 +++ /tmp/southamerica Sun Oct 1 02:02:25 2000 @@ -353,6 +353,10 @@ # and are quite possibly wrong, but are more likely than no DST at all. Rule Brazil 1999 max - Oct Sun>=1 0:00 1:00 S Rule Brazil 2000 max - Feb lastSun 0:00 0 - +# Decree <a href="http://pcdsh01.on.br/DEC3592.htm">3,592</a> (1999-10-01) +# adopted by the same states. +Rule Brazil 2000 only - Oct 6 0:00 1:00 S +Rule Brazil 2001 only - Feb 18 0:00 0 - # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] -- Mario S. F. Ferreira - UnB - Brazil - "I guess this is a signature." lioux at ( freebsd dot org | linf dot unb dot br ) flames to beloved devnull(a)someotherworldbeloworabove.org

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places: links
by Oscar van Vlijmen Oct. 1, 2000

Oct. 1, 2000

A couple of links for those who are still interested in places, in spite of past discussions ;) Jesper Nørgaard gave earlier: UN list of capital cities and cities of 100,000 inhabitants and more http://www.un.org/Depts/unsd/demog/ctry.htm Another link, just found by me: Global Population Project, with many more statistics and info: http://www.koeln.netsurf.de/~stefan.helders/content.htm Interested in names? "The GEOnet Names Server (GNS) provides access to the National Imagery and Mapping Agency's (NIMA) database of foreign geographic feature names. Approximately 20,000 of the database's 3.5 million features are updated monthly with names information approved by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names (US BGN)." The index to the country files: http://164.214.2.59/gns/html/Cntry_Files.html Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names Latitude/longitude, sometimes a bit more info http://shiva.pub.getty.edu/tgn_browser/ US State Department: Independent States in the World; a list with capitals: http://www.state.gov/www/regions/independent_states.html I just read an article about Sealand (AD Magazine Sep 30 2000, from Algemeen Dagblad (Dutch), www.ad.nl) The Principality of Sealand, not by the UN recognised "country", not in tz: http://www.sealandgov.com/ Location: 051.53.40 N, 01.28.57 E. No information about timezone, probably UTC+0. Average number of inhabitants: 6. About 300 people seem to have a Sealand passport. Which Dutch city (that's 'city', not 'gemeente') is the largest? Amsterdam 718150 Rotterdam 590480 Den Haag 442800 Source (Dutch site): http://www.stedengids.net/cijfersnederland.htm UN statistics (see above) gives the same idea (year 1994): Amsterdam city: 723163, urban agglom.: 1100764 Rotterdam city: 598236, urban agglom.: 1076442 's-Gravenhage city: 444108, urban agglom.: 694733 Oscar van Vlijmen 2000-10-01

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IAU resolution supporting leap second reform
by Paul Eggert Sept. 29, 2000

Sept. 29, 2000

http://clockdev.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0009&L=leapsecs&F=lf&S=&… reports that the following resolution was adopted by the IAU last month: The International Astronomical Union Recognising 1. that the definition of Coordinated Universal time (UTC) relies on the astronomical observation of the UT1 time scale in order to introduce leap seconds, 2. that the unpredictability of leap seconds affects modern communication and navigation systems, 3. that astronomical observations provide an accurate estimate of the secular deceleration of the Earth's rate of rotation, Recommends 1. that the IAU establish a Working Group reporting to Division 1 at the General Assembly in 2003 to consider the redefinition of UTC, 2. that this study discuss whether there is a requirement for leap seconds, the possibility of inserting leap seconds at pre-determined intervals, and the tolerance limits for UT1-UTC, and 3. that this study be undertaken in cooperation with the appropriate groups of the International Union of Radio Science (URSI), the International Telecommunications Union (ITU-R), the International Bureau for Weights and Measures (BIPM), and relevant navigational agencies.

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Re: Alternative place names?
by Dik.Winter＠cwi.nl Sept. 29, 2000

Sept. 29, 2000

> I am NOT proposing to change the Theory rules, but I wonder: population > count, popularity, media exposure all change, a capital hardly or not. A > capital is or should be known to everybody. Haven't we all had some kind of > geography lessons, years or decades ago? Oh, come on. How many people in the Netherlands know the official name of its capital? How many people not of Dutch origin know what the real capital is? And it would seem strange to use that name in the files in conjunction with "Amsterdam time". I am quite happy with Europe/Amsterdam, but that is where I live of course ;-). dik

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Re: Another capital
by Dik.Winter＠cwi.nl Sept. 28, 2000

Sept. 28, 2000

>> Welkom en welkom gefeliciteerd in deez' wonderschone hoofdstad van ons land! >> Congratulations! You live in the real and formal capital of the Netherlands. >> The Dutch government has its seat in The Hague (Den Haag, 's-Gravenhage). > Which makes it the capital by both the English meaning of the word (Webster) > and the Dutch meaning of the word (van Dale). Note that when I was at school > we were taught that The Hague was the capital, while the only claim to fame > of Amsterdam was that Kings and Queens would be crowned there. Forgot to mention something. You talk about "formal capital", but that can only be the case if it is written down somewhere in the legislation, but there is nothing about that anywhere. My (Dutch) encyclopedia (which postdates my schooldays by quite some years) says: "Generally Amsterdam is seen as the capital of the Netherlands although the seat of government is in The Hague." Note that this implies that it is not universal, nor that it would actually be correct. dik

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Re: Another capital
by Dik.Winter＠cwi.nl Sept. 28, 2000

Sept. 28, 2000

> Welkom en welkom gefeliciteerd in deez' wonderschone hoofdstad van ons land! > Congratulations! You live in the real and formal capital of the Netherlands. > The Dutch government has its seat in The Hague (Den Haag, 's-Gravenhage). Which makes it the capital by both the English meaning of the word (Webster) and the Dutch meaning of the word (van Dale). Note that when I was at school we were taught that The Hague was the capital, while the only claim to fame of Amsterdam was that Kings and Queens would be crowned there. dik

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Another capital
by Oscar van Vlijmen Sept. 28, 2000

Sept. 28, 2000

> Dik Winter: > Oh, come on. How many people in the Netherlands know the official name > of its capital? How many people not of Dutch origin know what the real > capital is? And it would seem strange to use that name in the files in > conjunction with "Amsterdam time". I am quite happy with Europe/Amsterdam, > but that is where I live of course ;-). Welkom en welkom gefeliciteerd in deez' wonderschone hoofdstad van ons land! Congratulations! You live in the real and formal capital of the Netherlands. The Dutch government has its seat in The Hague (Den Haag, 's-Gravenhage). Many globally accessible sources, e.g. the CIA World Factbook, will tell you the same. http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html Oscar van Vlijmen 2000-09-28

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Re: Eastern Peace Time
by Paul Eggert Sept. 27, 2000

Sept. 27, 2000

"Olson, Arthur David (NCI)" <olsona(a)dc37a.nci.nih.gov> writes: > Last night I heard part of a rebroadcast of a 1945 Arch Oboler radio > drama. In the introduction, Oboler spoke of "Eastern Peace Time." > An AltaVista search turned up http://rowayton.org/rhs/hstaug45.html > by way of confirmation. Peace is such a wonderful thing! We must put this into the database. > ...and presumably what's needed is a line between these two such as... > ...where h:mm is the time that the document ending the war was signed. The document was signed on September 2, but from that web page it appears that the radio was announcing "Eastern Peace Time" in August 1945. Truman officially declared V-J Day on August 15, 1945. Many people celebrate V-J day on September 2, when the documents were signed on the battleship Missouri, but that's not the right date for tz purposes. <http://www.merchant-marine.com/va--ammv.htm> says that at 0615 hours, the US Navy ordered that all offensive operations against Japan cease; this is the best time that I could find for the actual start of peace. > 1. What are the correct values for h and mm above? I would say August 15, 1945, at 06:15 -- presumably this was EWT, so the transition was at 10:15 Universal Time. # Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER/S Rule US 1945 only - Aug 15 10:15u 1:00 P # Peace (V-J Day) I'll put this into my next proposed batch of changes.

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Re: (Cyprus), Nicosia is in Europe not Asia.
by Paul Eggert Sept. 27, 2000

Sept. 27, 2000

Antoine Leca <Antoine.Leca(a)renault.fr> writes: > Paul Eggert wrote: > > > I don't know of any current official dividing line between Europe and > > Asia [...] Geographically, Cyprus is > > clearly in Asia, and this has long been recognized. > > Sorry Paul: you are not consistent. Either you do not know of a dividing > line (as I do not, hence I do not comment on the issue). Or you do know > that "Cyprus is clearly in Asia", which in fact means that you know > of some line. What I was trying to say (perhaps infelicitously) is that the geographic dividing line is fuzzy in places (e.g. are the Mugadzhar mountains in Europe or in Asia?) but Cyprus is pretty clearly on the Asian side. Here's a quote that states things fairly accurately, I think: Geographically, Cyprus is considered to be a part of West Asia (this Mediterranean island is much closer to the mainland of Asia than to that of Europe). However, due to cultural, demographic, and historical reasons, it is often considered as a part of Europe. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~natinfo/asia3-2.htm#cyprus However, after some more research I agree that the point is disputable. In particular, the Encyclopedia Britannica flatly says that Cyprus is part of Europe. See <http://www.britannica.com/seo/e/europe/>. > The problem with Cyprus is that, at least as he said, Yiango was > unable to find Cyprus TZ because it cannot found it under > Europe/Nicosia. Yes, that's perhaps the best practical argument for putting it under Europe. I guess you have talked me into adding something like this: # Classically, Cyprus belongs to Asia; e.g. see Herodotus, Histories, I.72. # However, for various reasons many users expect to find it under Europe. Link Asia/Nicosia Europe/Nicosia

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Sao Paulo DST change this year?
by David Madeo Sept. 27, 2000

Sept. 27, 2000

Hi, Sorry to distract from the alternative names, but I have a report from a Sao Paulo colleague that they've changed the date for the transition again this year. According to him, As you may know we have the daylight savings for Sao Paulo/Brazil coming soon and as it happens every year the government has changed the dates again... It'll start on oct/8th and will end on February 18 both at 0:00. This doesn't seem to match up with this excerpt from 2000f/southamerica # Decree <a href="http://pcdsh01.on.br/DecHV99.gif">3,188</a> (1999-09-30) # adds SE, AL, PE, PR, RN, CE, PI, MA and RR. # These give only one year's rules. After that, the rules are guesses # and are quite possibly wrong, but are more likely than no DST at all. Rule Brazil 1999 max - Oct Sun>=1 0:00 1:00 S Rule Brazil 2000 max - Feb lastSun 0:00 0 - I can't believe I'm the first to report this. Did I miss an update? Is my colleague misinformed? Thanks, dmadeo

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Re: Alternative place names
by Paul Eggert Sept. 27, 2000

Sept. 27, 2000

"Gwillim Law" <gwil(a)mindspring.com> writes: > I hope we'll resist making frequent changes to the zone names. > Please remember that every change has a cost. In this case, there's > the labor of updating databases, resource files, source code, etc. Yes. For the two proposed changes Asia/Ashkhabad -> Asia/Ashgabat and Asia/Thimbu -> Asia/Thimphu, we'd definitely add entries to the "backward" file, so that any existing users could continue to use the old names. > Do not change established names unless they become ambiguous or shockingly > incorrect. That is a pretty conservative rule. I think I'm a bit more liberal, at least for names that are rarely used. I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone is currently using either of the two names in question as a TZ string. (Thimphu has 20,000 people and no stoplights. :-) The "backward" file let us survive the Great Renaming of 1993 (e.g. "US/Eastern" -> "America/New_York") with little problem, so I'm not to worried about renaming Thimbu. Also, a problem with this rule is that it's hard to define "shockingly incorrect" without going into politics. For example, if we had established the tz database in 1940 and had needed an entry for Asia/Peiping, would that name be "shockingly incorrect" by now? The name "Peiping" implies that Beijing is not the capital of China, and that would probably shock most Chinese; but it wouldn't shock most English-speakers because they don't have a feel for the Chinese etymology. This is an extreme case, but I hope you see what I mean. How about the following more liberal rules instead? Do not change established names if they only marginally violate the above rules. For example, don't change the existing name `Rome' to `Milan' merely because Milan's population has grown to be somewhat greater than Rome's. If a name is changed, put its old spelling in the `backward' file.

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Alternative place names
by Oscar van Vlijmen Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

To the discussion about possible alternative zone names in the tz-data files: I wrote: > If one doesn't like those names as zone names, just add them as a comment. And Paul Eggert replied: >> That has already been done in the latest tz sources. Sorry, I missed this one! It's good that this happened, because the alternative names are a valuable feature of the tz data, worth mentioning. About the Greenland names: >From the postal codes Greenland page (http://www.dpc.dk/Guide/PostalCodes.html) "3970 Pituffik (Dundas, Thule Air Base)" "3971 Qaanaaq (Thule)" See also: http://www.greenland-guide.dk/gt/maps/default.htm Paul Eggert wrote: > ... But this is another hint that perhaps we should > leave the tz Zone names alone, at least for now. In conclusion for the Greenland case I would like to suggest: Keep the current zone names because Thule and the other Danish names are globally more common, keep the commented Inuit names, but change Pituffik to Qaanaaq. However small Qaanaaq is, it refers to Thule; Pituffik refers to the air base. There are several other small inconsistencies in the zone names and comments of the tz data files. I took a look at the Asia file, with the latest Times atlas, the huge millennium edition, in front of me: * Bhutan: the name of the capital is Thimphu, not Thimbu. It is possible that Thimphu (not an f but an aspirated p) is a closer transliteration of the Dzongkha prononciation than the old British transliteration Thimbu. * Cambodia: Phnom Penh says the tz data, Phnum Penh is a more modern transliteration. * China: Chungking: seems to me an old and wrong French transliteration of Chongqing; the q is not a k-sound, but a ts-sound. * Cyprus: Nicosia. Isn't this called Lefkosia at the moment? * Kazakhstan: Aqtau: could be a pre-1940 transliteration; since the Cyrillic script was reused, the correct transliteration, according to the Times atlas, is Aktau. Where on earth is Aqtobe? TZ data says it's in the Aktyubinsk time zone. Since Aktyubinsk is on the map (both as an oblast' name and as the capital of that county), why not change Aqtobe to Aktyubinsk. * Kirgizstan: should be Kyrgyzstan. * Laos: Vientiane. Put in a comment the better transliteration of Lao name: Viangchan. * Qatar: Al Dawhah: it's Ad Dawhah or the more Latin alternative Doha. * Bahrain: no need for '-' in Al-Manamah, so: Al Manamah. * Syria: Damascus; comment: Dimashq. * Thailand: no, I won't suggest a comment for the (abbreviated) formal name Krung Thep; just Bangkok. If you really like the long one, here it comes: Krungthep Mahanakhon Amorn Rattanakosin Mahintara Yudthaya Mahadilok Pohp Noparat Rajathanee Bureerom Udomrajniwes Mahasatarn Amorn Pimarn Avaltarnsatit Sakatattiya Visanukram Prasit (ref.: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/1233/bkk.htm) * Turkmenistan has since 1991 the Latin alphabet instead of the Cyrillic. I'm not sure if it's Ashkhabad or Ashgabat at the moment. I think the latter. * Vietnam: tzdata says: Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh. How nice, but isn't the capital Ha Noi? The fact that probably more Americans actually have been in Saigon should not play any role ;) So, there is still a bit of work to do if one would like to dot some i's. Oscar van Vlijmen 2000-09-26

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Re: Alternative place names
by Paul Eggert Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

Vadim Vygonets <vadik(a)cs.huji.ac.il> writes: > I just asked a Chinese guy, who says that Chongqing is the > official transliteration used in China. So maybe we should go > with the Chinese government. That is an argument for switching, all other things being equal. But I'm not convinced that we should switch entirely to Pinyin. For example, should we change Asia/Harbin to Asia/Haerbin (or Asia/Haerbin_Shi -- it's not clear to me which is right)? The word "Harbin" isn't derived from Chinese, which makes matters even more interesting. In English, "Harbin" is by far the dominant form -- 50 times more common, according to Altavista -- so I'm not inclined to switch it. For Asia/Hong_Kong and Asia/Macao, it's even clearer to me that we shouldn't switch to Pinyin. We have this problem with Asia/Urumqi and Asia/Kashgar too; in both cases I chose the form that I found to be more popular in English at the time (in the first case Pinyin, in the second case conventional). Perhaps the worst example of this problem is Mongolia. Places like Hovd and Choybalsan seem to have dozens of spellings each. With cases like this we have to just close our eyes and pick a name, to some extent. > 'i' and 'y' are different sounds, at least in Russian. Kirgizia > and Kirgizstan are Russian names, Kyrgyzstan is Kyrgyzian > (Kirgizian?). Hmm, also Altavista says that "Kyrgyzstan" is much more popular. So let's prefer "Kyrgyzstan" in the comment and in iso3166.tab. The CIA prefers "Kyrgyzstan" as well, and they seem to be relatively up-to-date in these matters. (_The Economist_ prefers "Kirgizstan", which is where I got the spelling originally.) > > Ho Chi Minh City aka Saigon is far more populous than Hanoi, so that's > > why we use it. (Just as we use Los Angeles and not Sacramento. :-) > > However, Asia/Jerusalem and not Asia/Tel_Aviv is the official > time zone for Israel. It used to be Asia/Tel_Aviv, but someone reported that Jerusalem's population is now greater than Tel Aviv's, at least by some measures. Jerusalem is much better-known, so that was enough to get us to switch. If Jerusalem becomes a divided city with different daylight-saving rules, then we'll need to revisit this issue.

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Re: Alternative place names
by Paul Eggert Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

Oscar van Vlijmen <o.van.vlijmen(a)tip.nl> writes: > Keep the current zone names because Thule and the other Danish names are > globally more common, keep the commented Inuit names, but change Pituffik to > Qaanaaq. However small Qaanaaq is, it refers to Thule; Pituffik refers to > the air base. The "Thule" entry refers to the airbase, not the town. Until recently, Thule was the only time zone region whose most populous location was an airbase. Even now the populations of the town and the airbase are neck and neck, so I'd leave it alone for now. However, I'll append "air base" to the comment, to make it clearer. > * Bhutan: the name of the capital is Thimphu, not Thimbu. Good point. By Altavista's count, "Thimphu" is now far more popular than "Thimbu" in English. I'll change this in my next proposed patch. > * Cambodia: Phnom Penh says the tz data, Phnum Penh is a more modern > transliteration. Altavista says that "Phnom Penh" is still more popular in English, by a wide, wide margin. So let's stick with it. (Besides, we can't put the accent over the "e" in a Posix name. :-) > * China: Chungking: seems to me an old and wrong French transliteration of > Chongqing; the q is not a k-sound, but a ts-sound. Chungking is the traditional English name; e.g. see <http://www.sinistra.net/els/sup/transcript.html>, which gives the following examples, among others: (Postal) (Pinyin) Canton Guangzhou Chungking Chongqing Hong Kong Xianggang Macao Aomen Peking Beijing Szechuan Sichuan Of these examples, I think "Beijing" is clearly more popular than "Peking" in English these days. At the other extreme is "Xianggang", which few English-speakers have ever heard of. "Chungking" is somewhere in the middle -- still more popular than the Pinyin name in movie titles (e.g. Chungking Express [1994], a movie made in Hong Kong) but less popular in, say, English-language travel web sites produced in the PRC. For now I'm slightly inclined to leave it as "Chungking" for a little while longer, but put "Chongqing" in as a comment. Similarly for the other Postal names. > * Cyprus: Nicosia. Isn't this called Lefkosia at the moment? That's news to me. I often see English-language news dispatches with a Nicosia dateline. Perhaps it depends on whether you're looking at the city from a European or an Asian viewpoint? I can just see it now: Europe/Nicosia as an alias for Asia/Lefkosia. (No, no, forget that I mentioned it. :-) > * Kazakhstan: Aqtau: could be a pre-1940 transliteration; since the Cyrillic > script was reused, the correct transliteration, according to the Times > atlas, is Aktau. The CIA spells it "Aqtau". The Times of Central Asia (the only online English-language newspaper in the area that I could find) also spells it "Aqtau"; see <http://www.times.kg/web-guide/kazakhstan/>. The Lonely Planet guide also calls it "Aqtau" (and I can't resist repeating its remark that the town is "for the perverse and JG Ballard lovers only"). But a lot of Russian-derived sources do indeed spell it "Aktau", and I think the oil companies tend to follow the Russians. Currently "Aktau" is present as a comment; I'm inclined to leave it that way for now. > Where on earth is Aqtobe? TZ data says it's in the > Aktyubinsk time zone. Since Aktyubinsk is on the map (both as an oblast' > name and as the capital of that county), why not change Aqtobe to > Aktyubinsk. Aktyubinsk is the old (Russian) name, and Aqtobe is the new (Kazakh) one. Google says "Aqtobe" is more popular these days (not surprising, as "Aktyubinsk" is a pain to spell :-). > * Kirgizstan: should be Kyrgyzstan. The official name indeed has "y" but I think "i" is quite popular in English. It's just a comment, so it doesn't matter all that much. I'll include both spellings in the comment. > * Laos: Vientiane. Put in a comment the better transliteration of Lao name: > Viangchan. > * Qatar: Al Dawhah: it's Ad Dawhah or the more Latin alternative Doha. > * Bahrain: no need for '-' in Al-Manamah, so: Al Manamah. > * Syria: Damascus; comment: Dimashq. Thanks; I'll add/fix these comments. > * Turkmenistan has since 1991 the Latin alphabet instead of the Cyrillic. > I'm not sure if it's Ashkhabad or Ashgabat at the moment. Altavista says that Ashgabat is much more common, and the CIA uses Ashgabat. This looks like we should change the name too. > * Vietnam: tzdata says: Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh. How > nice, but isn't the capital Ha Noi? The fact that probably more Americans > actually have been in Saigon should not play any role ;) Ho Chi Minh City aka Saigon is far more populous than Hanoi, so that's why we use it. (Just as we use Los Angeles and not Sacramento. :-)

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Defense for Ho Chi Minh
by Jesper Nørgaard Sept. 25, 2000

Sept. 25, 2000

Oscar van Vlijmen wrote: ======================= * Vietnam: tzdata says: Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh. How nice, but isn't the capital Ha Noi? The fact that probably more Americans actually have been in Saigon should not play any role ;) ======================= I believe that tz data has an (unstated?) policy of defining the default city of a country not necessarily to be the capital, but the city with the highest number of inhabitants, as in the concrete example where Ho Chi Minh city has around 3 million inhabitants, whereas the capital Hanoi (or Ha Noi) has only 1 million inhabitants. That probably also explains why there has been more Americans in Saigon ... Regards, Jesper Nørgaard Email: jnorgard(a)Prodigy.Net.mx Programador/Analista CIMMYT - Centro Internacional de Mejoramiento de Maíz y Trigo Dirección: CIMMYT, Lisboa 27, 06600 Mexico, D.F. Tel.: +52 (5) 58-04-20-04 ext. 1374 Fax: +52 (5) 58-04-75-58 Tel. Casa: 53-10-05-95 ó 53-10-97-78 CIMMYT home page: http://cimmyt.cgiar.org Check out my Time Zone Converter: http://timezone50.homepage.com

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Peace Time
by Olson, Arthur David (NCI) Sept. 25, 2000

Sept. 25, 2000

The information provided by Garrett Wollman suggests the change below. Given the location of the international date line, the document was signed when it was 1945-09-01 in the United States. --ado *** 7.52/northamerica Mon Sep 25 16:29:52 2000 --- 7.53/northamerica Mon Sep 25 16:29:52 2000 *************** *** 1,4 **** ! # @(#)northamerica 7.52 # also includes Central America and the Caribbean # This data is by no means authoritative; if you think you know better, --- 1,4 ---- ! # @(#)northamerica 7.53 # also includes Central America and the Caribbean # This data is by no means authoritative; if you think you know better, *************** *** 58,67 **** --- 58,89 ---- # Before the Uniform Time Act of 1966 took effect in 1967, observance of # Daylight Saving Time in the US was by local option, except during wartime. + # From Arthur David Olson (2000-09-25): + # After the end of World War II, "Peace" replaced "War" in the time zone names + # used on at least some radio broadcasts. We'll assume this kicked in on the + # signing on 1945-09-02 of the document ending the war. According to + # <a href="http://spclevents.com/ships/missouri/bb63_pod.html"> + # http://spclevents.com/ships/missouri/bb63_pod.html + # </a> + # sunrise was 05:14 and sunset was 18:07; according to + # <a href="http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/japansur/js-8g.htm" > + # http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/japansur/js-8g.htm + # </a> + # "All signatures were in place by 9:22." According to the United States + # Naval Observatory's Astronomical Aplications Department's Sunrise and Sunset + # Calculator, + # <a href="http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA"> + # http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA + # </a> + # sunrise at 35o42'N, 139o46'E on 1945-09-02 was at 05:13 and sunset was at + # 18:08; these values are close enough to 05:14 and 18:07 to let us know that + # the Missouri was operating on Tokyo time. + # Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER/S Rule US 1918 1919 - Mar lastSun 2:00 1:00 W # War Rule US 1918 1919 - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S Rule US 1942 only - Feb 9 2:00 1:00 W # War + Rule US 1945 only - Sep 2 0:22u 1:00 P # Peace Rule US 1945 only - Sep 30 2:00 0 S Rule US 1967 max - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S Rule US 1967 1973 - Apr lastSun 2:00 1:00 D

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Eastern Peace Time
by Olson, Arthur David (NCI) Sept. 25, 2000

Sept. 25, 2000

Last night I heard part of a rebroadcast of a 1945 Arch Oboler radio drama. In the introduction, Oboler spoke of "Eastern Peace Time." An AltaVista search turned up http://rowayton.org/rhs/hstaug45.html by way of confirmation. The "northamerica" time zone file already has information about Eastern War Time during World War II... Rule US 1942 only - Feb 9 2:00 1:00 W # War Rule US 1945 only - Sep 30 2:00 0 S ...and presumably what's needed is a line between these two such as... Rule US 1945 only - Sep 2 h:mmu 1:00 P # Peace ...where h:mm is the time that the document ending the war was signed. And so, two questions: 1. What are the correct values for h and mm above? 2. Was that indeed the instant when the switch from War Time to Peace Time occurred? Thanks in advance for any light that folks can shed! --ado

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Re: (Cyprus), Nicosia is in Europe not Asia.
by Paul Eggert Sept. 24, 2000

Sept. 24, 2000

Paul Hill <phill(a)myriad.com> writes: > But I believe the tzdata actually redundantly lists some entries. > If I recall, the US territories in the Pacific (Guam?, American Samoa?) are > listed in two files but with the same IDs. There are many redundancies if you look at the "backward" file, since it contains backward-compatibility links for older names like US/Pacific that have been superseded by newer names like America/Los_Angeles. But if you omit the "backward" file, almost all redundancies are where two different locations have the same time zone history since 1970 (e.g. Europe/Rome and Europe/San_Marino). These redundancies are needed only to satisfy the rule that each country gets at least one location. There is only one exception to this general rule: Istanbul has the two entries Europe/Istanbul and Asia/Istanbul. I think this is OK, as Istanbul actually does span continents. I don't know of any current official dividing line between Europe and Asia, or between Asia and Africa for that matter, so I suppose there could be more points of controversy in the distant future as the dividing line encounters time zone splits. Maybe by then there will be a standard, or we'll use a different naming scheme. As for Cyprus, the tz database generally tries to avoid political and cultural questions, as they are distractions from its intended purpose. Culturally, Cyprus is more European than Asian (and has been so for most of its history); but if we went by culture, we'd have to do things like putting Australia under Europe and this wouldn't make much sense from a time zone point of view. Geographically, Cyprus is clearly in Asia, and this has long been recognized. For example, please see Herodotus, Histories, I.72.

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Re: Greenland - places
by Paul Eggert Sept. 24, 2000

Sept. 24, 2000

Oscar van Vlijmen <o.van.vlijmen(a)tip.nl> writes: > Why not using the Greenlandic place names in the Europe file? When I originally chose the names, the old-fashioned Danish names were in more common use in English than the newfangled Greenlandic names. This may have changed since then; I haven't checked. > Thule: Qaanaaq At the height of the cold war, Thule had maybe 10,000 people in it (the exact number was a secret); it was a giant city by Greenland's standards. But now the nearby native village is a bit larger than Thule itself. I think this explains why some sources refer to Thule as `Qaanaaq' and others `Pituffik'. If we rename Thule, we'll have to pick the right replacement name. By the tz rules we should still stick with Thule, as I think it's still much better known in English; but this may change in the future, I suppose. It's even conceivable that Thule will become a ghost town. > Godthåb (or even worse: Godthab, yes I know, Posix 1.0): Nuuk > Scoresbysund: Ittoqqortoormiit Nuuk would be an good name, but Ittoqqortoormiit is too long; it exceeds 14 chars. (Maybe we could remove all the duplicate letters. :-) > If one doesn't like those names as zone names, just add them as a comment > (#). That has already been done in the latest tz sources. > Especially Ittoqqortoormiit could be a bit problematic. Although this is the > official spelling as far as I can tell, I already found two other spellings, > one of them was an error (Ittoqqortoormiut) and another was probably the > wrong Inuit dialect (Itseqqortoormiit). In the current tz comment, it's a different spelling yet: Ittoqqortoormit. I'll change the spelling to agree with the Danish postal code web page. But this is another hint that perhaps we should leave the tz Zone names alone, at least for now.

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RE: Greenland - places
by Olson, Arthur David (NCI) Sept. 21, 2000

Sept. 21, 2000

> Why not using the Greenlandic place names in the Europe file? >From the "Theory" file: Use traditional English spelling, e.g. prefer `Rome' to `Roma', and prefer `Athens' to the true name (which uses Greek letters). The Posix file name restrictions encourage this rule. --ado

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Population counters
by Jesper Nørgaard Sept. 19, 2000

Sept. 19, 2000

Now that we had a request about Latitude and Longitude sources, I was just wondering if anybody knows sources in internet about population counters for cities. I have made many different searches, but apparently not the right ones, because I have only come up with 2 important ones: UN list of capital cities and cities of 100,000 inhabitants and more http://www.un.org/Depts/unsd/demog/ctry.htm Statistics pages for the world: http://www.xist.org/ If you think this is not that relevant for the tz list, I probably agree, but some of you guys have plenty of background in the geographic area in general, so I have a feeble hope that somebody could help me out. Regards, Jesper Nørgaard Email: jnorgard(a)Prodigy.Net.mx Programador/Analista CIMMYT - Centro Internacional de Mejoramiento de Maíz y Trigo Dirección: CIMMYT, Lisboa 27, 06600 Mexico, D.F. Tel.: +52 (5) 58-04-20-04 ext. 1374 Fax: +52 (5) 58-04-75-58 Tel. Casa: 53-10-05-95 ó 53-10-97-78 CIMMYT home page: http://cimmyt.cgiar.org Check out my Time Zone Converter: http://timezone50.homepage.com

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Greenland - places
by Oscar van Vlijmen Sept. 17, 2000

Sept. 17, 2000

Why not using the Greenlandic place names in the Europe file? Thule: Qaanaaq Godthåb (or even worse: Godthab, yes I know, Posix 1.0): Nuuk Scoresbysund: Ittoqqortoormiit Source: e.g. "Postal codes in Greenland" (http://www.dpc.dk/Guide/PostalCodes.html) and "POSTNUMRE Danmark/København/Grønland/Færøerne" (http://www.morslink.dk/postnr.htm) If one doesn't like those names as zone names, just add them as a comment (#). Especially Ittoqqortoormiit could be a bit problematic. Although this is the official spelling as far as I can tell, I already found two other spellings, one of them was an error (Ittoqqortoormiut) and another was probably the wrong Inuit dialect (Itseqqortoormiit). Oscar van Vlijmen 2000-09-17

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