- tz - lists.iana.org

pytz - Python World Timezones
by Stuart Bishop June 24, 2004

June 24, 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 http://sourceforge.net/projects/pytz/ pytz is a transformation of the public domain Olsen timezone database into pure Python code. This library allows accurate and cross platform timezone calculations using Python 2.3 or higher. This implementation solves the issue of ambiguous times at the end of daylight savings, which you can read more about in the Python Library Reference (datetime.tzinfo). The only remaining inaccuracy is that datetime.strftime only reports the UTC offset to the nearest minute (This is probably a feature - you have to draw a line somewhere). 536 of the Olsen timezones are supported. The missing few are for Riyadh Solar Time in 1987, 1988 and 1989. As Saudi Arabia gave up trying to cope with their timezone definition, I see no reason to complicate my code further to cope with them. (I understand the intention was to set sunset to 0:00 local time, the start of the Islamic day. In the best case caused the DST offset to change daily and worst case caused the DST offset to change each instant depending on how you interpreted the ruling.) Note that if you perform date arithmetic on local times that cross DST boundaries, the results may be in an incorrect timezone (ie. subtract 1 minute from 2002-10-27 1:00 EST and you get 2002-10-27 0:59 EST instead of the correct 2002-10-27 1:59 EDT). This cannot be resolved without modifying the Python datetime implementation. However, these tzinfo classes provide a normalize() method which allows you to correct these values. Installation ============ This is a standard Python distutils distribution. To install the package, run the following command as an administrative user:: python setup.py install License ======= BSD style license. I'm more than happy to relicense this code for inclusion in other open source projects. Example & Usage =============== >>> from datetime import datetime, timedelta >>> from pytz import timezone >>> utc = timezone('UTC') >>> eastern = timezone('US/Eastern') >>> utc_dt = datetime(2002, 10, 27, 6, 0, 0, tzinfo=utc) >>> loc_dt = utc_dt.astimezone(eastern) >>> fmt = '%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %Z (%z)' >>> loc_dt.strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 01:00:00 EST (-0500)' >>> (loc_dt - timedelta(minutes=10)).strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 00:50:00 EST (-0500)' >>> eastern.normalize(loc_dt - timedelta(minutes=10)).strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 01:50:00 EDT (-0400)' >>> (loc_dt + timedelta(minutes=10)).strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 01:10:00 EST (-0500)' Latest Versions =============== This module will be updated after releases of the Olsen timezone database. The latest version can be downloaded from sourceforge_. .. _sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pytz/ Further Reading =============== More info than you want to know about timezones:: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm Contact ======= Stuart Bishop <stuart(a)stuartbishop.net> - -- Stuart Bishop <stuart(a)stuartbishop.net> http://www.stuartbishop.net/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFA2bWTAfqZj7rGN0oRAjF0AJwMEwGDgODszthhjETIAUqXFSOxfACfbkeH hJh13lBU3ge5UYtes0niQu8= =sEx7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

2 2

Re: Re: 64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable
by WHarms＠bfs.de June 24, 2004

June 24, 2004

hi list, i see that a log of systems have moved to 64bit time_t (not only native 64bit systems). what happends if zdump move to mytime_t 64bit ? on 32bit that would extend the precission without any effect while 64bit system will be coverred automagicly. (hopes to ease fustration for ado :) walter - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Paul Eggert <eggert(a)CS.UCLA.EDU> Subject: Re: 64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable Date: 06/18/04 23:29 Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.oz.au> writes: > Certainly it isn't correct to simply cite the precedent of some > other (different) change, and act as if that was sufficient > justification for any new change. Sure. But here we've already seen precedent for this exact same change. Lots of operating systems have decided to use 64-bit time_t on 64-bit hosts. They all had their inevitable shakeout period. One (Tru64) distinguishes between time_t and time64_t, the way that ado proposed, but as far as I can tell, nobody else thought that the extra complexity is worth the hassle. These folks have already made their decision, in some cases many years ago, and they're unlikely to change their minds now no matter how much huffing and puffing we do. If we want to write code that is portable to 64-bit GNU/Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD 6, Microsoft Windows, etc., then we have to make sure it works with 64-bit time_t. > I can't imagine wanting to know about times that stretch from 1970 > to 1970 + 2.6 * 10^11, that's just absurd. I agree, and if we had to do it over again I'd design time_t differently, but it's too late to change this for the systems mentioned above.

1 0

Argentina's timezone blues... aftermath
by Mariano Absatz June 23, 2004

June 23, 2004

Hi, I'm deeply sorry, I had a couple of completely maddening weeks and wasn't able to follow up on my postings... I couldn't even read if someone did... I'm posting old news so, if this has already been posted, please disregard my message (I'm not on my computer right now, and I can't easily access the list archive)... So... I know what's going on, but I couldn't find official sources... The 'official federal source', only says that the 'national' timezone is UTC-03:00 ( http://tinyurl.com/yvhh9 ). These media articles from a major newspaper mostly cover the current state http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/27/de_604825.asp http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/28/de_605203.asp The changes in Mendoza are those that Paul incorporated a couple of weeks ago. The following eight (8) provinces pulled clocks back to UTC-04:00 at midnight Monday May 31st. (that is, the night between 05/31 and 06/01). Catamarca Chubut La Rioja San Juan San Luis Santa Cruz Tierra del Fuego Tucumán Apparently, all nine provinces would go back to UTC-03:00 at the same time in October 17th. Sorry for providing so little info, so late.-- Mariano Absatz - El Baby mailto:baby@baby.com.ar http://www.baby.com.ar/ PGP KEYS: http://www.baby.com.ar/datos/personales.html#claves_pgp |\ _ _\\/'> Powered by Pegasus Mail /|__) http://www.pmail.com ) )\ ----------------------------------------------------------- The sex was so good that even the neighbors had a cigarette.

3 12

64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 18, 2004

June 18, 2004

Given that time_t has been a 32-bit entity since day one of UNIX, there are a slew of binary executables out there that are built on the premise, as well as plenty of values stored in disk files (take UNIX accounting logs, please). That makes it an extremely bad idea to redefine time_t as a 64-bit value. This does not, of course, mean that it's a bad idea to have 64-bit time stamps available--as long as they're available under a different name (along with differently named functions to manipulate them). The historic precedent in the UNIX realm is the addition of the "lseek" system call once files got larger than good old "seek" could handle (even with the provision of seeks where the short-integer seek argument specified a block number rather than a byte number). So somewhere down the road we can expect to see entities such as ltime_t and lgmtime. Bottom line: we should probably not be doing a lot of work to support 64-bit time_t implementations since we don't want to encourage such implementations. --ado

5 5

Time Zone Localizations
by Mark Davis June 18, 2004

June 18, 2004

The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations of time zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. A number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The goal would be to make changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. The current version of the proposal is at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatting/ti… I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄

13 80

Re: 64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable
by Paul Eggert June 18, 2004

June 18, 2004

matthew green <mrg(a)eterna.com.au> writes: > actually, no NetBSD platform uses a 64 bit time_t on any of the > several 64 bit machines it runs on. Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for correcting me. I was told in 1995 that NetBSD on Alpha used a 64-bit time_t, and never bothered to check (nor has anyone else corrected me despite my reporting this on Usenet for almost a decade, e.g., see <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=51ke97%2452d%40deck.twinsun.com>). I just checked Usenet, and FreeBSD started talking about the change to 64-bit time_t in 2001 and decided to do it one architecture at a time (sparc64 made the transition earlier this year). They're even making noises about using 64-bit time_t for x86, though that sounds a bit extreme. So I should have written "FreeBSD on some architectures" rather than "the BSDs".

2 1

RE: zdump -v crashes with 64-bit time_t
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 17, 2004

June 17, 2004

> * Don't attempt to print out all the 64-bit time_t space, as that will > take nearly forever; instead, default to printing about 50 years > into the future, and don't bother to print times before about 1833. It might be better to cut off at something such as... 2050 + 100 * ((current_year - 1930) / 100) ...to ease regression testing; this would maintain a cutoff of 2050 until 2030, then boost the cutoff to 2150 until 2130, and so on. This way zdump output only changes every hundred years; the next change is set for eight years before 2038 and the miseries associated with T4G (you read the abbreviation here first) to provide ample time to catch bugs, while avoiding any output changes for the next 26 years. --ado

2 1

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 2:21 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Probably I've given you a confusing example. It's not related to Japanese locale at all. Since Paul and others have given another examples, like "Pacific War Time". I don't think I'd need to give additional examples. It is confusing to produce *correct* (past) local time with the current time zone name as if the current GMT offset and DST rules were applied to the local time. Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I am just not quite understanding what you are getting at. In CLDR, the >English translation of the TZID Asia/Singapore would be in the en >locale data; the Japanese translation of TZID Asia/Singapore would be in the ja locale file, etc. >(Note: we don't necessarily have the data for everything yet, but the >LDML format allows all of that.) > >The best I can make out, it sounds like what you want would be the 1942 >Japanese names for the TZID Asia/Singapore, etc.. While it would >certainly be possible to do that with CLDR by providing a variant >locale (ja-JP-1942), it seems rather odd. When I generate a date right >now, and the date happens to be in the past at some time, I don't >generate it with the conventions that would have applied in *on that >date* (unless I am doing a historical novel, for example). I don't >write 1624-1-15 as "The Fifteenth Day of January in the Year of Our >Lord Nineteen-Hundred Four-and-Twenty", or whatever would have been >accepted usage at the time: I write it (in en_US) as "January 15th, 1624" (or some other modern equivalent). > >So I must still be misunderstanding you. > >(Also, we looked at using the Olson TZID abbreviations, but they don't >appear to have wide currency -- people in the countries in question >didn't seem to be familiar with them -- so we decided not to use them.) > >Mark > >(BTW, I will be on a trip next week, and won't be able to reply very >often on this subject) > >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Sun, 2004 Jun 13 05:36 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >Probably *my* comment wasn't clear enough for you. But I believe that >I've been talking about the same thing as what was pointed out by Paul >(the second bullet of Message-id: <87isdxxm5a.fsf(a)penguin.cs.ucla.edu>). >I *am* talking about the names part, not the computing part. > >For example, Java is capable of *computing* correct local time as of >1942-02-16 in Asia/Singapore. However, since Java has only the last >time zone (display) names (i.e., "Singapore Time" and "SGT" for >Asia/Singapore), Java date/time formatting produces "Singapore Time" or >"SGT" for 1942-02-16, which should be "Japan Standard Time" or "JST". >(tzcode is capable of producing correct abbreviations. But I didn't >think that abbreviation only support for historic names was appropriate >for Java and I didn't add them in 1.4.) I see the same issue in the >LDML spec in <timeZoneNames> as Java currently has. > >My earlier comment included the following which may explain what I'd >like to see in the LDML spec. > ><timeZoneNames> > <zone type="America/Los_Angeles" > > <zoneNameSet format="SGT"> > <long> > <generic>Singapore Time</generic> > ... > </long> > <short> > <generic>SGT</generic> > ... > </short> > </zoneNameSet> > ... > <zoneNameSet format="LMT"> > <long> > <generic>Local Mean Time</generic> > ... > </long> > <short> > <generic>LMT</generic> > ... > </short> > </zoneNameSet> > </zone> >... ></timeZoneNames> > >The format="..." may be problematic. But I haven't thought out any real >syntax for the requirement. > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>I think we may be talking past one another. LDML provide for a way to >> >> >*localize* > > >>the Olson TZIDs. For example, you can localize the term >>"Asia/Singapore". That latter ID is the thing that identifies a timezone. >> >>It does not at all attempt to provide an alternative to *computing* >>the results of applying the Olson TZID to any given point in time. >>That is left to the implementation of the Olson time zone database. >>There is no need, nor desire, >> >> >to > > >>duplicate that in the LDML. >> >>As far as we are concerned, 'historic' time zone support simply means >>the ability for the time zone computation to reflect differences in >>behavior that existed in the past but no longer exist. An >>implementation that was only >> >> >limited > > >>to 'modern' time zones (like Windows, or older Java or ICU) would not >>be able >> >> >to > > >>distinguish between two zones that have the same behavior now, but >>differed at some time in the past. So the Olson time zone database >>encompasses historic >> >> >time > > >>zones, and has historic time zone IDs that LDML allows people to >>attach localizations to. >> >>Is that clearer? >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Sat, 2004 Jun 12 07:35 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>It's strange. I responded to your message about 13 hours ago, but it >>doesn't show up yet... Let me try again (with a short version). >> >>I believe you misunderstood my first question. It's simply an invalid >>assumption that a zone (in the Olson zoneinfo) represents a single >>time zone. How do you describe the following with the LDML spec, for example? >> >># Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] >>Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 >> 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. >> 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time >> 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 >> 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 >> 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 >> 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 >> 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence >> 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time >> 8:00 - SGT >> >>If the given date is, for example, 1942-02-16, the local time zone >>name has to be "JST" (in the short form). I didn't think LDML would >>allow for defining historical time zone names. I didn't mean >>"historical" tome zone *IDs*. (I really don't understand "modern" and >>"historical" in your message, though. All of (most of?) the zones are >>modern. They just have their own history. And we just don't know what >>will happen to zones in the future. What you think is "modern" today might be "historical" >>tomorrow.) >> >>Thanks, >>Masayoshi >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >>>IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >>>as matching the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>IDs >> >> >> >> >>>in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >>>http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >>>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >>> >>> >>>Mark Davis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>>>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>>>does >>>> >>>> >allow > > >>>>for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >>>LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way >>>to talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Masayoshi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that >>>>the sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>>>languages just >>>> >>>> >don't > > >>>>have corresponding terms. And we didn't give guidance before as to >>>>which IDs were the most important to translate, so the translations >>>>that are in CLDR >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>were >> >> >> >> >>>>not done in any kind of priority order. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>>__________________________________ >>>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>>>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>>>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>>>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>>>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >>>> >>>> >>>>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >>>> >>>>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >>>><timeZoneNames> >>>>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>>>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>>>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>>>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>>>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>>>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but >>>>I couldn't due to another commitment. >>>> >>>>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>>>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>-- >>>>Masayoshi Okutsu >>>>Java Internationalization >>>>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >>>> >>>>Mark Davis wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for >>>>>translations of time zone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>IDs, >> >> >> >> >>>>>based on the public domain time zone database at >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>A >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>>>goal would be to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>make >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of >>>>>this >>>>> >>>>> >year. > > >>>>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>>>> >>>>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/forma >>>>>tting/tim >>>>> >>>>> >e > > >>>>> >>>>> >>_ >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>z >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>one_localization.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>>>> >>>>>Mark >>>>>__________________________________ >>>>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 8:37 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Probably *my* comment wasn't clear enough for you. But I believe that I've been talking about the same thing as what was pointed out by Paul (the second bullet of Message-id: <87isdxxm5a.fsf(a)penguin.cs.ucla.edu>). I *am* talking about the names part, not the computing part. For example, Java is capable of *computing* correct local time as of 1942-02-16 in Asia/Singapore. However, since Java has only the last time zone (display) names (i.e., "Singapore Time" and "SGT" for Asia/Singapore), Java date/time formatting produces "Singapore Time" or "SGT" for 1942-02-16, which should be "Japan Standard Time" or "JST". (tzcode is capable of producing correct abbreviations. But I didn't think that abbreviation only support for historic names was appropriate for Java and I didn't add them in 1.4.) I see the same issue in the LDML spec in <timeZoneNames> as Java currently has. My earlier comment included the following which may explain what I'd like to see in the LDML spec. <timeZoneNames> <zone type="America/Los_Angeles" > <zoneNameSet format="SGT"> <long> <generic>Singapore Time</generic> ... </long> <short> <generic>SGT</generic> ... </short> </zoneNameSet> ... <zoneNameSet format="LMT"> <long> <generic>Local Mean Time</generic> ... </long> <short> <generic>LMT</generic> ... </short> </zoneNameSet> </zone> ... </timeZoneNames> The format="..." may be problematic. But I haven't thought out any real syntax for the requirement. Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I think we may be talking past one another. LDML provide for a way to >*localize* the Olson TZIDs. For example, you can localize the term >"Asia/Singapore". That latter ID is the thing that identifies a timezone. > >It does not at all attempt to provide an alternative to *computing* the >results of applying the Olson TZID to any given point in time. That is >left to the implementation of the Olson time zone database. There is no >need, nor desire, to duplicate that in the LDML. > >As far as we are concerned, 'historic' time zone support simply means >the ability for the time zone computation to reflect differences in >behavior that existed in the past but no longer exist. An >implementation that was only limited to 'modern' time zones (like >Windows, or older Java or ICU) would not be able to distinguish between >two zones that have the same behavior now, but differed at some time in >the past. So the Olson time zone database encompasses historic time >zones, and has historic time zone IDs that LDML allows people to attach localizations to. > >Is that clearer? > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Sat, 2004 Jun 12 07:35 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >It's strange. I responded to your message about 13 hours ago, but it >doesn't show up yet... Let me try again (with a short version). > >I believe you misunderstood my first question. It's simply an invalid >assumption that a zone (in the Olson zoneinfo) represents a single time >zone. How do you describe the following with the LDML spec, for example? > ># Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] >Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 > 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. > 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time > 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 > 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 > 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 > 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 > 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence > 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time > 8:00 - SGT > >If the given date is, for example, 1942-02-16, the local time zone name >has to be "JST" (in the short form). I didn't think LDML would allow >for defining historical time zone names. I didn't mean "historical" >tome zone *IDs*. (I really don't understand "modern" and "historical" >in your message, though. All of (most of?) the zones are modern. They >just have their own history. And we just don't know what will happen to >zones in the future. What you think is "modern" today might be "historical" >tomorrow.) > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >>IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >>as matching the >> >> >IDs > > >>in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >>http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>>does allow for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >>LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way >>to talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? >> >>Thanks, >>Masayoshi >> >> >> >> >> >>>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that the >>>sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>>languages just don't have corresponding terms. And we didn't give >>>guidance before as to which IDs were the most important to translate, >>>so the translations that are in CLDR >>> >>> >were > > >>>not done in any kind of priority order. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >>> >>> >>>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >>> >>>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >>><timeZoneNames> >>>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but >>>I couldn't due to another commitment. >>> >>>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >>> >>>Thanks, >>>-- >>>Masayoshi Okutsu >>>Java Internationalization >>>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >>> >>>Mark Davis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations >>>>of time zone >>>> >>>> >IDs, > > >>>>based on the public domain time zone database at >>>> >>>> >ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>A >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>>goal would be to >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>make >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >>>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>>> >>>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/format >>>>ting/time >>>> >>>> >_ > > >>>> >>>> >>z >> >> >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>one_localization.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>>__________________________________ >>>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 10:35 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations It's strange. I responded to your message about 13 hours ago, but it doesn't show up yet... Let me try again (with a short version). I believe you misunderstood my first question. It's simply an invalid assumption that a zone (in the Olson zoneinfo) represents a single time zone. How do you describe the following with the LDML spec, for example? # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time 8:00 - SGT If the given date is, for example, 1942-02-16, the local time zone name has to be "JST" (in the short form). I didn't think LDML would allow for defining historical time zone names. I didn't mean "historical" tome zone *IDs*. (I really don't understand "modern" and "historical" in your message, though. All of (most of?) the zones are modern. They just have their own history. And we just don't know what will happen to zones in the future. What you think is "modern" today might be "historical" tomorrow.) Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >as matching the IDs in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>does allow for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >> >> >> >> >I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way to >talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > > > >>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that the >>sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>languages just don't have corresponding terms. And we didn't give >>guidance before as to which IDs were the most important to translate, >>so the translations that are in CLDR were not done in any kind of priority order. >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >> >>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >><timeZoneNames> >>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but I >>couldn't due to another commitment. >> >>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >> >>Thanks, >>-- >>Masayoshi Okutsu >>Java Internationalization >>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations >>>of time zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>A >> >> >> >> >>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>goal would be to >>> >>> >>> >>> >>make >> >> >> >> >>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>> >>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatt >>>ing/time_ >>> >>> >z > > >>> >>> >>one_localization.html >> >> >> >> >>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0