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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Bennett Todd <bet(a)rahul.net> wrote: > Please stop unproductive provocation on this list. Any quote for an "unproductive provocation on this list"? >It doesn't advance the > maintenance of the zoneinfo database, Can be tested after you give a quote. >and it doesn't make you look good. I don't care about how I look, when mailing to the tz mailing list. When I email to the tz mailing list, I care about the correctness of the tzdb and statements made in other mailings related to that. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Theory - typo - simplifes -> simplyfies
by Tobias Conradi May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

Even bug reports can contain bugs. T On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:03 PM, David Zülke <david.zuelke(a)bitextender.com> wrote: > On 08.05.2012, at 19:29, Tobias Conradi wrote: > >> tzcode2012b/Theory >> >> Indicate to humans as to where that region is. This simplifes use. >> >> simplifes -> simplyfies > > It's "simplifies". Get your own facts straight before you waste everyone's time with nonsensical "input" like this. I bet you'll follow up with another message in two months, subject "Two month past [sic] - still not fixed". > > David > > -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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As long as we're looking at the Theory file...
by Guy Harris May 8, 2012

May 8, 2012

It says * This package is already part of many POSIX-compliant hosts, including BSD, HP, Linux, Network Appliance, SCO, SGI, and Sun. On such hosts, the primary use of this package is to update obsolete time zone rule tables. To do this, you may need to compile the time zone compiler `zic' supplied with this package instead of using the system `zic', since the format of zic's input changed slightly in late 1994, and many vendors still do not support the new input format. NetApp's machines aren't POSIX-compliant - the original Data ONTAP was a very specialized OS, and ONTAP GX or whatever it's called may be FreeBSD-based (with, I think, the NetApp-specific stuff running in special kernel-mode code rather than atop standard FreeBSD) but I'm not sure it supports arbitrary applications. I'm not sure whether the right solution is to drop "POSIX-compliant" or to put NetApp's machines into a separate category; I'm inclined towards the latter. In addition, OS X and iOS could be considered to fall under the heading of "BSD", but it might be worth mentioning OS X separately (you wouldn't be able to install zic-compiled tables on non-jailbroken iOS, so I wouldn't mention it). (Oh, and you might want to say "Solaris" or "Oracle" rather than "Sun", given that Sun Microsystems no longer exists.)

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Sakha Republic bugs - eight months passed - still not fixed
by Tobias Conradi May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

1) Since September 2011 - at least - there is disagreement between reported law and tzdb for current offsets in Bulunsky Ulus, Oymyakonsky Ulus, Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus which are located in Russia. On 2012-04-29 (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-April/017639.html) it was defined by a TZ maintainer that: "The first order of business is to ensure that current (2012) time stamps are handled correctly throughout Russia." So, I assume the below could fall under first order of business. 2012-09-16 Alexander Krivenyshev reported differences http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html 2012-09-16 Tobias Conradi wondered whether there was a change in offset or the TZ DB simply contained false data Two zones are proposed in case the data is correct for the time before the decree took effect Asia/Khandyga (setup changed later) Asia/Ust-Nera containing Oymyakonsky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008799.html 2012-09-17 Arthur David Olson makes a summary http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008818.html 2012-09-20 Tobias Conradi changes the proposal for Asia/Khandyga to only contain Tomponsky, Ust-Maysky http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008836.html 2012-09-27 Arthur David Olson asks for old decree "Decree #725 indicates that it abrogates Decree #23 of January 8, 1992 (among other things abrogated); is the abrogated decree available online?" http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008898.html 2012-09-27 Sanjeev Gupta provides a link to the scan http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008899.html 2012-10-02 Arthur David Olson makes some analysis of the data http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008933.html 2012-10-02 Yury Tarasievich clarifies that the sections contain border descriptions and additionally writes "BTW, the document only notes the possibility, but doesn't explicitly refer to the then actual (Soviet) practice for the large territories to observe the zonal time of the neighbouring timezone." http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008935.html Now follows my interpretation of http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 (granitsa mezhdy = border between) page 5 section about Zone 8 - Zone 9 border Zone 8/left: Bulunsky Raion Zone 9/right: Ust-Maysky Raion + Tomponsky Raion page 6 section about Zone 9 - Zone 10 border Zone 10/right: Oymyakonsky Raion Which, except for Bulunsky Raion, is what according to "tzdata2012c/europe" Oscar van Vlijmen did report, but no sources were cited for. That would mean that: A) two zones need to be created: Asia/Ust-Nera Oymyakonsky Ulus Asia/Khandyga Tomponsky Ulus, Ust-Maysky Ulus both zones observing a change in offset towards Moscow Time in September 2011, exact time see below. B) Bulunsky Ulus needs a fix. Either 2009-11-29 Oscar van Vlijmen report is correct, then a new zone is needed or it is not correct, then the report should be removed or marked deprecated and the data from the 1992 decree could be used for the time before the 2011 decree became effective. Time of change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oymyakonsky_District#cite_note-RuTime-7 "Опубликован: "Российская Газета", No.197, 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: ~Published ..... 2011-09-06 "Effective as of after 7 days following the day of the official publication." which would mean the law became effective 2011-09-13 a Tuesday. http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/06/chas-zona-dok.html "Дата первой официальной публикации: 6 сентября 2011 г" My translation: First official publication 2011-09-06. Note: That all leaves out effects as mentioned in the above cited 2012-10-02 comment by Yury Tarasievich. Maybe there was no offset change relative to Moscow Time, so no zones are needed. But in absence of reports supporting deviation from the 1992 decree boundaries for any of the four raion/ulus I would follow the 1992 decreed zone boundaries. 2) Law 2011 Sakha Republic is split by decree #725 http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ between Zone 7 - Moscow Time + 6 ...Bulunskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij... Zone 8 - Moscow Time + 7 ...Ojmyakonskij... Zone 9 - Moscow Time + 8 3) TZDB 2012 tzdata2012c\europe splits Sakha as follows # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Aldanskij, Amginskij, Anabarskij, # Verkhnevilyujskij, Vilyujskij, Gornyj, # Zhiganskij, Kobyajskij, Lenskij, Megino-Kangalasskij, Mirninskij, # Namskij, Nyurbinskij, Olenyokskij, Olyokminskij, # Suntarskij, Tattinskij, Ust'-Aldanskij, Khangalasskij, # Churapchinskij, Eveno-Bytantajskij Natsional'nij. Zone Asia/Yakutsk (zone.tab: Moscow+06) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Bulunskij, Verkhoyanskij, Tomponskij, Ust'-Majskij, # Ust'-Yanskij. Zone Asia/Vladivostok (zone.tab: Moscow+07) # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2009-11-29): # The Sakha districts are: Abyjskij, Allaikhovskij, Verkhhhnekolymskij, Momskij, # Nizhnekolymskij, Ojmyakonskij, Srednekolymskij. Zone Asia/Magadan (zone.tab: Moscow+08) -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Unsubscribe
by Brenda Burnell (bburnell) May 7, 2012

May 7, 2012

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Re: [tz] Comments and mapping of tz zones to the real world
by Steve Jones May 6, 2012

May 6, 2012

At 02:55 5/6/2012, Tobias Conradi wrote: >If a majority in a given country does not observe what the law >mandates, I would ask on the tz mailing list, whether the >information for that area should be changed. Not sure if this adds to or distracts from the conversation, but when I set out to provide accurate time zone borders for North America and eventually realized any such effort needed the sort of caveat I include for <http://ontimezone.com/>http://ontimezone.com: Ours is really just an "interpretation" of time zone data, because current time zone boundary data is elusive. And once you think you have nailed down the official "legislated" time zone, you learn about differences between that and the locally "observed" time zone... Wherever locally "observed" time differs from official, the main borders in OnTimeZone.com follow the observed time - which is what a traveler is likely to actually encounter. A problem with that is that unofficial "observed" differences typically follow vague "areas of influence" which defy precise definition. But we had to draw them somewhere. Usually these borders are in very lightly settled areas - and we took pains to draw them on the correct side of any area which may have businesses or services. That was our intent anyway - corrections appreciated! Wherever these areas are in the US, the official border is also drawn in green, for reference purposes. No attempt was made to do this for other countries, because distinctions between official and unofficial blur a bit in the various political subdivisions within most countries. In the US all official time zone borders are well and clearly documented by a single source - the US Dept. of Transportation. But be aware that within an area where observed practice differs from official, there are often internal exceptions such as Polling places, Post Offices or other federal offices, and sometimes law enforcement or various other levels of government -- who may observe official time even if the rest of the community does not. Commonly bars or liquor stores in these areas observe official time. This can provide quite a competitive advantage for properly situated bars, when last-call sojourners migrate across an official time zone border to cadge one more hour of bliss. Cheers, Steve Jones

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proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts
by OvV_HN May 5, 2012

May 5, 2012

A couple of additional tidbits, probably not really contributing to the Russian timezones discussion, but possibly interesting to some. Most details are from memory; I have not the time to look up all references. 1) Back then another contributor to the TZ list looked up which districts (ulusy) of Sakha (Jakutija) were in which timezone. I merely incorporated his research into my report on all Russian timezones. I tried to give him credits, but his name was somehow lost in the comments in the TZ file. I forgot, I have lost the emails, if reference is needed: please look it up yourself in the TZ mail archive. 2) Transliteration scheme: back then I chose for the Chemical Abstracts transliteration which had 2 advantages: (a) two-way, (b) Posix 1 compatible. Two-way means: the transliterated text can be transformed back into Russian again. With schemes like GOST 7.79 (ISO 9) and several other schemes, only one-way transliteration is possible. Why Posix 1? Because the text files in the TZ distribution have no document type definition, nor any character set designation. Furthermore, the rest of the database and the software should be Posix 1 compatible, I learned from the TZ maintainers. Hence: thou shalt not use any characters beyond 7-bits ASCII or so. 3) Districts in Sakha are in this republic called ulusy (nominative case; singular: ulus), in several other Russian publications they are called rajony (singular: rajon). The law (see my point 5) gives both terms. I think "districts" is close enough for a text comment in English. 4) With respect to the transliteration scheme in the comments: what are we talking about? At any rate not about any vital part of the TZ software. I wouldn't give it much more attention, if I may suggest. 5) The law (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/) states very clearly which Sakha districts are in which timezone. Please check this for current times in the TZ database, if not done already. There is however one not so clear part, namely the Newsiberian Islands. From memory I recall that one TZ contributor said they are administered from the central government of the republic. Heaving read several texts and looked at a couple of Russian maps, I'm inclined to believe the islands are part of the Bulunskij Ulus. Regretfully I have no definitive reference for you. Then again: how many people actually live in this reserve? So, what is the effect if we put it into the wrong timezone? Oscar van Vlijmen

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Revised proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts
by Arthur David Olson May 5, 2012

May 5, 2012

I've attached revised proposed changes for past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts; they also appear below (with tab characters mangled). I've added references provided by Dmitry V. Lenin to the "europe" file. I've changed "west Siberia" to "Omsk" in the "zone.tab" file. I've left unchanged the quote from "translate.google.com (since it is a quote.) For now, I've left unchanged the names provided by Oscar van Vlijmen; I hope we can defer issues of translation and transliteration until finishing the work on past changes in western Siberia and on 2011 changes. --ado diff -r -c old/europe new/europe *** old/europe 2012-05-02 17:54:22.581472200 -0400 --- new/europe 2012-05-05 09:40:53.091364400 -0400 *************** *** 1,5 **** # <pre> ! # @(#)europe 8.41 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. --- 1,5 ---- # <pre> ! # @(#)europe 8.43 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. *************** *** 2164,2182 **** 4:00 Russia SVE%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 5:00 Russia YEK%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 6:00 - YEKT # Yekaterinburg Time ! # ! # From Oscar van Vlijmen (2001-08-25): [This region consists of] ! # Respublika Altaj, Altajskij kraj, Omskaya oblast'. Zone Asia/Omsk 4:53:36 - LMT 1919 Nov 14 5:00 - OMST 1930 Jun 21 # Omsk TIme 6:00 Russia OMS%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 5:00 Russia OMS%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 6:00 Russia OMS%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 7:00 - OMST ! # ! # From Paul Eggert (2006-08-19): I'm guessing about Tomsk here; it's ! # not clear when it switched from +7 to +6. ! # Novosibirskaya oblast', Tomskaya oblast'. Zone Asia/Novosibirsk 5:31:40 - LMT 1919 Dec 14 6:00 6:00 - NOVT 1930 Jun 21 # Novosibirsk Time 7:00 Russia NOV%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s --- 2164,2223 ---- 4:00 Russia SVE%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 5:00 Russia YEK%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 6:00 - YEKT # Yekaterinburg Time ! ! # From Tobias Conradi (2011-09-17): ! # I know that Wikipedia is not reliable, still I would like to start with: ! # <a href=" http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0… "> ! # http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0… ! # </a> ! ! # From Arthur David Olson (2012-05-02): ! # According to ! # <a href=" http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://ru.wikipedia.org… "> ! # http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://ru.wikipedia.org… ! # </a>: "...the regions of Western Siberia, ! # formerly stationed in the area of MSK+4, ! # switched to the time of MSK+3, joining the Omsk Time: ! # Novosibirsk Region May 23, 1993 at 00:00, ! # Altai and the Altai Republic May 28, 1995 at 4:00 am, ! # Tomsk Region May 1, 2002 at 3:00 am." ! ! # From Dmitry V. Levin (2012-05-03): ! # ! # Novosibirsk Region May 23, 1993 at 00:00 ! # An article in a newspaper archive (in Russian): ! # <a href="http://vedomosti.sfo.ru/articles/?article=20345"> ! # http://vedomosti.sfo.ru/articles/?article=20345 ! # </a> ! # (Refers to a resolution of the Legislative Assembly of Novosibirsk Region ! # On Transferring to the Fifth Time Zone). ! # ! # ! # Altai and the Altai Republic May 28, 1995 at 4:00 am ! # Text of the Resolution (in Russian): ! # <a href="http://altai.regionz.ru/index.php?ds=1326596"> ! # http://altai.regionz.ru/index.php?ds=1326596 ! # </a> ! # (State Assembly-El Kurultai of the Altai Republic Resolution #8-11 of ! # 6 April 1995 On Transferring the Altai Republic to the Fifth Time Zone. ! # Mentions: Altai Krai Legislative Assembly Resolution #35 of 3 March 1995 ! # On Transferring Altai Krai to the Fifth Time Zone). ! # ! # ! # Tomsk Region May 1, 2002 at 3:00 am ! # Text of the Resolution (in Russian): ! # <a href="http://docs.kodeks.ru/document/901815739"> ! # http://docs.kodeks.ru/document/901815739 ! # </a> ! # (Government of the Russian Federation. Resolution #246 of 17 April 2002 ! # On Using the Time of the Fifth Time Zone on the Territory of Tomsk Oblast). ! ! # Omskaya oblast'. Zone Asia/Omsk 4:53:36 - LMT 1919 Nov 14 5:00 - OMST 1930 Jun 21 # Omsk TIme 6:00 Russia OMS%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 5:00 Russia OMS%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 6:00 Russia OMS%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 7:00 - OMST ! ! # Novosibirskaya oblast'. Zone Asia/Novosibirsk 5:31:40 - LMT 1919 Dec 14 6:00 6:00 - NOVT 1930 Jun 21 # Novosibirsk Time 7:00 Russia NOV%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s *************** *** 2185,2190 **** --- 2226,2249 ---- 6:00 Russia NOV%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s 7:00 - NOVT + # Respublika Altaj, Altajskij kraj. + Zone Asia/Barnaul 5:35:00 - LMT 1919 Nov 14 + 6:00 - BART 1930 Jun 21 # Barnaul Time + 7:00 Russia BAR%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s + 6:00 Russia BAR%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s + 7:00 Russia BAR%sT 1995 May 28 4:00s # wikipedia.ru + 6:00 Russia OMS%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s + 7:00 - OMST + + # Tomskaya oblast'. + Zone Asia/Tomsk 5:39:52 - LMT 1919 Dec 14 6:00 + 6:00 - TOMT 1930 Jun 21 # Tomsk Time + 7:00 Russia TOM%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s + 6:00 Russia TOM%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s + 7:00 Russia TOM%sT 2002 May 1 3:00s # wikipedia.ru + 6:00 Russia OMS%sT 2011 Mar 27 2:00s + 7:00 - OMST + # From Alexander Krivenyshev (2009-10-13): # Kemerovo oblast' (Kemerovo region) in Russia will change current time zone on # March 28, 2010: diff -r -c old/zone.tab new/zone.tab *** old/zone.tab 2012-05-02 17:54:34.515493100 -0400 --- new/zone.tab 2012-05-05 09:40:50.719228800 -0400 *************** *** 1,5 **** # <pre> ! # @(#)zone.tab 8.55 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. # --- 1,5 ---- # <pre> ! # @(#)zone.tab 8.57 # This file is in the public domain, so clarified as of # 2009-05-17 by Arthur David Olson. # *************** *** 336,343 **** RU +4844+04425 Europe/Volgograd Moscow+00 - Caspian Sea RU +5312+05009 Europe/Samara Moscow+00 - Samara, Udmurtia RU +5651+06036 Asia/Yekaterinburg Moscow+02 - Urals ! RU +5500+07324 Asia/Omsk Moscow+03 - west Siberia RU +5502+08255 Asia/Novosibirsk Moscow+03 - Novosibirsk RU +5345+08707 Asia/Novokuznetsk Moscow+03 - Novokuznetsk RU +5601+09250 Asia/Krasnoyarsk Moscow+04 - Yenisei River RU +5216+10420 Asia/Irkutsk Moscow+05 - Lake Baikal --- 336,345 ---- RU +4844+04425 Europe/Volgograd Moscow+00 - Caspian Sea RU +5312+05009 Europe/Samara Moscow+00 - Samara, Udmurtia RU +5651+06036 Asia/Yekaterinburg Moscow+02 - Urals ! RU +5500+07324 Asia/Omsk Moscow+03 - Omsk RU +5502+08255 Asia/Novosibirsk Moscow+03 - Novosibirsk + RU +5322+08345 Asia/Barnaul Moscow+03 - Altai + RU +5800+08458 Asia/Tomsk Moscow+03 - Tomsk RU +5345+08707 Asia/Novokuznetsk Moscow+03 - Novokuznetsk RU +5601+09250 Asia/Krasnoyarsk Moscow+04 - Yenisei River RU +5216+10420 Asia/Irkutsk Moscow+05 - Lake Baikal

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Sakha Republic - raion, ulus, district
by Tobias Conradi May 4, 2012

May 4, 2012

In reply to Oscar van Vlijmen 2012-05-04 (ca. 20:06 - not sure what offsets my mailer uses) ============= "[tz] proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts" >> http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/ >> ???? (ulus) not found on that page > > Them trolls! Good you looked into this! > The complete text of the law is now published at: > http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ ============== The 1992 http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 only has raion as far as I could see. 2011 http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ for Sakha has ulus with raion in parentheses. while the summary at http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/ has only raion. All non-English Wikipedias use a form of "Ulus" for an article about an individual ulus, only the English WP does not, e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyysky_District I suggest using only transliteration (i.e. raion or ulus) instead of using the term "district" for the tz database. This avoids issues with other entities that may be translated as district. Following are two examples of other translations for the pair raion=district. Economic raion -> Economic region http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_regions_of_Russia Federal okrug -> Federal district http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_districts_of_Russia -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts
by OvV_HN May 4, 2012

May 4, 2012

Replying to: [tz] proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts Tobias Conradi tobias.conradi at gmail.com Fri May 4 16:43:02 UTC 2012 2) > ISO_9 is two way, isn't it? System A and B of ISO 9 are meant to be 2-way, but System A cannot be represented in ASCII 7-bits. System B can. Be my guest. 3) > http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/ > ???? (ulus) not found on that page Them trolls! Good you looked into this! The complete text of the law is now published at: http://government.ru/gov/results/16355/ Oscar van Vlijmen

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