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Timezone error (Kyiv not Kiev)
by Yana Sukhoversha July 12, 2022

July 12, 2022

Dear Sirs and Madams, I've noticed the Timezone error , the correct spelling according to orthographic rules is Kyiv not Kiev. I hope this accidental mistake will be amended urgently , taking into consideration Ukrainian-Russian relations nowadays as well as your strive to improvement and lightning-fast response to error corrections Hope to see the correct variant Kyiv very soon Sincerely, *Yana Sukhoversha*

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Moderation note
by Kim Davies July 12, 2022

July 12, 2022

We have temporarily introduced some moderation controls in light of the repetitive and externally coordinated nature of the Kyiv naming requests being sent to this group. This is not a measure we take lightly. Continuous restatement of the same talking points and casting aspersions at people's motives does not advance productive discussion and drives well intentioned participants away. I would encourage all participants to not relitigate the same arguments back and forth that are now very familiar to list members. It is useful to consider ICANN's expected standards of behavior which can be reviewed at https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/expected-standards-2016-06-28-en kim -- Kim Davies VP, IANA Services, ICANN President, PTI

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Why Kyiv has not been changed yet?
by Artur Nakonia July 10, 2022

July 10, 2022

Hello, What is the problem with Kyiv? Why it is still as Kiev? Thank you, Artur Nakonia

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Absolute error to use Kiev instead of Kyiv
by Pavlo Neberelytskyi July 10, 2022

July 10, 2022

Hi, There is an error in naming Kiev instead of Kyiv. Kyiv is the only correct variant since 1992, please correct. Thanks, Pavlo

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Re: [tz] Moving more zones to 'backzone'
by dpatte July 9, 2022

July 9, 2022

Thank you. This is something I have been trying to say as well. The db format should allow us to collect historical tz information for any region, even locations that are only different before 1970. This is of use for those that do historical time-of-day research in any field, such as astronomy. Eventually all locations on earth, going backward, revert to local solar (sundial) time, so we only need to collect data which is other than local solar time, generally going back to the dates of implementation of local mean time for various locations. Obviously, such a collection can never be complete, like any historical data, but it does provide information which is useful to some, and constantly improving. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christos Zoulas via tz [mailto:tz@iana.org] To: "Time zone mailing list" <tz(a)iana.org> Sent: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 07:01:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [tz] Moving more zones to 'backzone' I view maintaining the pre-1970 data as an exercise in improving the historical record of timezone information. Historians don't simply discard information when they are not certain about its accuracy. They constantly work to make it better. In extreme cases it is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism. I don't see any other group of people trying to do this work, so like it or not we are the best positioned group to maintain this information right now. I believe that we should provide the best information to our knowledge instead of giving up and discarding it because of convenience. I also agree with kre that the arcane zic format needs to be redesigned to ease maintenance. Best, christos

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On simultaneously experiencing daylight
by Tim Parenti July 8, 2022

July 8, 2022

A friend shared an article investigating a recent claim on Reddit that earlier today, 8 July 2022, at 11:15 UTC, "99% of the world’s population" would simultaneously find themselves between dawn and dusk. This claim was soon popularized into a related claim that a similar percentage would "experience daylight" at that time. https://earthsky.org/earth/99-percent-worlds-population-receive-sunlight/ Spoiler: The original claim of 99% holds only if you use the most *technical* definition of twilight — including civil, nautical, and astronomical. In practice, most folks living in areas falling into the latter categories would perceive nighttime. But, as the article goes on to explore, however you slice it, it's still an impressive percentage of the global population "experiencing daylight" by any definition. -- Tim Parenti

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question re zone America/Punta_Arenas in Chile
by Alois Treindl July 7, 2022

July 7, 2022

In 2016, Chile introduced a new time zone for it south-most province Magallanes, and for this reason a new zone Zone America/Punta_Arenas -4:43:40 - LMT 1890 -4:42:46 - SMT 1910 Jan 10 -5:00 - -05 1916 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1918 Sep 10 -4:00 - -04 1919 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1927 Sep 1 -5:00 Chile -05/-04 1932 Sep 1 -4:00 - -04 1942 Jun 1 -5:00 - -05 1942 Aug 1 -4:00 - -04 1947 Apr 1 -5:00 - -05 1947 May 21 23:00 -4:00 Chile -04/-03 2016 Dec 4 -3:00 - -03 has been created. before it followed Zone America/Santiago -4:42:46 - LMT 1890 -4:42:46 - SMT 1910 Jan 10 # Santiago Mean Time -5:00 - -05 1916 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1918 Sep 10 -4:00 - -04 1919 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1927 Sep 1 -5:00 Chile -05/-04 1932 Sep 1 -4:00 - -04 1942 Jun 1 -5:00 - -05 1942 Aug 1 -4:00 - -04 1946 Jul 15 -4:00 1:00 -03 1946 Sep 1 # central Chile -4:00 - -04 1947 Apr 1 -5:00 - -05 1947 May 21 23:00 -4:00 Chile -04/-03 The new zone differs from zone Santiago at two points: - it does not have the 1946/47 DST - it differs from 2016 Dec 4, the reason of its creation. I wonder on which basis the 1946/47 DST was left out for Puntas_Arenas? Is that documented somewhere? The main reason why I ask: My two sources Shanks and Gabriel have always claimed that zone America/Santiago is only good for the province of Santiago, but that the rest of Chile did not have DST between 1927 and 1932. This is why in my private pre-1970 TZ extension I have an extra zone for 'rest of Chile besides Santiago' Zone America/Chile/Antofagasta -4:41:36 - LMT 1890 -4:42:46 - SMT 1910 Jan 10 # Santiago Mean Time -5:00 - -05 1916 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1918 Sep 10 -4:00 - -04 1919 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1927 Sep 1 -5:00 - -05 1932 Sep 1 0 follow America/Santiago which leaves out the 1927-1932 DST. It has however the 1946/47 DST. I have another zone, based on Shanks and Gabriel, for Vaparaiso, which leaves out the 1946/47 DST, but has a one-summer 1931/1932 DST. Zone America/Chile/Vina_del_Mar -4:46:16 - LMT 1890 -4:42:46 - SMT 1910 Jan 10 # Santiago Mean Time -5:00 - -05 1916 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1918 Sep 10 -4:00 - -04 1919 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1927 Sep 1 -5:00 - -05 1931 Sep 1 -5:00 Chile -05/-04 1932 Sep 1 -4:00 - -04 1942 Jun 1 -5:00 - -05 1942 Aug 1 -4:00 - -04 1947 Apr 1 0 follow America/Santiago Sadly, I have currently no sources for that beyond Shanks and Gabriel. We would need local newspaper archives from a non-Santiago newspaper for 1927-1932 to confirm. But it this is true, we have to assume that province Magellanes behaved like 'the rest of Chile' and not like Santiago before the split in 2016. That means that it should be: Zone America/Punta_Arenas -4:43:40 - LMT 1890 -4:42:46 - SMT 1910 Jan 10 -5:00 - -05 1916 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1918 Sep 10 -4:00 - -04 1919 Jul 1 -4:42:46 - SMT 1927 Sep 1 -5:00 - -05 1932 Sep 1 -4:00 - -04 1942 Jun 1 -5:00 - -05 1942 Aug 1 -4:00 - -04 1947 Apr 1 -5:00 - -05 1947 May 21 23:00 -4:00 Chile -04/-03 2016 Dec 4 -3:00 - -03

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Re: [tz] Fixing GeoNames timezone errors
by dpatte July 6, 2022

July 6, 2022

I use the free geonames database in several of my projects. It is a user-contributed db, so all users are welcome to make corrections. They also have a paid version which is more heavily scrutinized for errors. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kerry Shetline via tz [mailto:tz@iana.org] To: <tz(a)iana.org> Sent: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 15:50:02 -0400 Subject: [tz] Fixing GeoNames timezone errors For those not familiar with the website, geonames.org provides a Creative Commons-licensed database of city, towns, geographic features, etc. Among other things, this DB provides latitude, longitude, and IANA timezone for millions of places around the world. The problem is I’m finding many of the timezone values provided in this DB are incorrect. This mostly seems to be caused by places with coordinates near timezone boundaries being incorrectly assigned a nearby but incorrect timezone. For example, Walpole Island, Ontario, Canada, right next to the US border, is set to America/Detroit instead of the correct value of America/Toronto. It’s at least easy to spot some errors like this, when a particular timezone is known to definitely belong to a different country, but there are many other errors at national, and state/province/prefect/etc. boundaries not so easy to spot. I was trying to create a timezone lookup based on country, state (admin level 1), and county (admin level 2) by going through the millions of entries in the database, building lists of which timezones were used where, but it quickly became apparent that the data was contaminated by many errors. Does anyone know of a more reliable source for determining the timezone of a location on Earth, either by its latitude and longitude, or by the country and other administrative hierarchy information? I’ve found downloads of shape files meant to define timezone boundaries, but they don’t seem to be very accurate. In fact, I suspect that the use of inaccurate timezone boundaries is the source of many of the errors in the Geonames DB, and that Geonames isn't even applying the help of the zone.tab file to rule out some of the errors caused by this.

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Fixing GeoNames timezone errors
by Kerry Shetline July 6, 2022

July 6, 2022

For those not familiar with the website, geonames.org provides a Creative Commons-licensed database of city, towns, geographic features, etc. Among other things, this DB provides latitude, longitude, and IANA timezone for millions of places around the world. The problem is I’m finding many of the timezone values provided in this DB are incorrect. This mostly seems to be caused by places with coordinates near timezone boundaries being incorrectly assigned a nearby but incorrect timezone. For example, Walpole Island, Ontario, Canada, right next to the US border, is set to America/Detroit instead of the correct value of America/Toronto. It’s at least easy to spot some errors like this, when a particular timezone is known to definitely belong to a different country, but there are many other errors at national, and state/province/prefect/etc. boundaries not so easy to spot. I was trying to create a timezone lookup based on country, state (admin level 1), and county (admin level 2) by going through the millions of entries in the database, building lists of which timezones were used where, but it quickly became apparent that the data was contaminated by many errors. Does anyone know of a more reliable source for determining the timezone of a location on Earth, either by its latitude and longitude, or by the country and other administrative hierarchy information? I’ve found downloads of shape files meant to define timezone boundaries, but they don’t seem to be very accurate. In fact, I suspect that the use of inaccurate timezone boundaries is the source of many of the errors in the Geonames DB, and that Geonames isn't even applying the help of the zone.tab file to rule out some of the errors caused by this.

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Re: [tz] Timezone error (Kyiv not Kiev)
by Stephen Trainor (Crookneck) July 6, 2022

July 6, 2022

Steve Summit wrote: > What end-user interfaces are there that present raw tz identifiers > for selection, and that might therefore confuse or offend users > if the spellings are culturally inappropriate? I’ve seen them shown (and have used them myself 'as-is') in multiple astronomy apps. (I double checked some apps today, and they are there.) I’ve never quite understood the "don’t show them to the user" argument. When I first became involved in using time zone data in a desktop application some years ago (via geonames and other downstream tzdata repackaging projects), from memory there was no mention of this guidance. It would be wrong to assume downstream consumers even know about it. And given that TZ IDs conspicuously pass the "duck test” it’s hardly surprising to see them making public appearances. They appear perfectly suited to show in a UI (with underscores replaced by spaces, I suppose). That said, replacing them with an anonymous identifier (e.g. 7252) would be a major negative for usability of the data (at least from a development/testing perspective). And while it would kick the problem downstream, it’s not going to eliminate it. I imagine many of the new set of downstream TZ ID-to-human readable translation errors or disputes that would undoubtedly ensue would land back on this list anyway. > As regulars well know, but newcomers may not, time zone identifiers > are just that: identifiers. True, but clearly there’s major inertia when it comes to changing them, as evidenced by the last several years of debate on K**v. So which is it? Easily mutable identifiers that users supposedly never see or human consumable ‘readable’ IDs?

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