Dear Sirs and Madams, I've noticed the Timezone error , the correct spelling according to orthographic rules is Kyiv not Kiev. I hope this accidental mistake will be amended urgently , taking into consideration Ukrainian-Russian relations nowadays as well as your strive to improvement and lightning-fast response to error corrections Hope to see the correct variant Kyiv very soon Sincerely, *Yana Sukhoversha*
It's beginning to look like there's an organized group of trolls who expect to force a name-only release by being annoying. It probably won't do any good to respond to them at all. Pointing out for the umpteenth time that the change has already been made and will appear in the next release won't make them go away. On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:16 AM Yana Sukhoversha via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Dear Sirs and Madams, I've noticed the Timezone error , the correct spelling according to orthographic rules is Kyiv not Kiev. I hope this accidental mistake will be amended urgently , taking into consideration Ukrainian-Russian relations nowadays as well as your strive to improvement and lightning-fast response to error corrections Hope to see the correct variant Kyiv very soon Sincerely,
*Yana Sukhoversha*
I am in favor of releasing the change. The current situation is only comparable to September 1939 and setting a precedent can not be feared. Best Regards Marc Bill Seymour via tz wrote:
It's beginning to look like there's an organized group of trolls who expect to force a name-only release by being annoying.
It probably won't do any good to respond to them at all. Pointing out for the umpteenth time that the change has already been made and will appear in the next release won't make them go away.
On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:16 AM Yana Sukhoversha via tz <tz@iana.org <mailto:tz@iana.org>> wrote:
Dear Sirs and Madams, I've noticed the Timezone error , the correct spelling according to orthographic rules is Kyiv not Kiev. I hope this accidental mistake will be amended urgently , taking into consideration Ukrainian-Russian relations nowadays as well as your strive to improvement and lightning-fast response to error corrections Hope to see the correct variant Kyiv very soon Sincerely,
*/Yana Sukhoversha/**//*
Bill Seymour wrote:
It's beginning to look like there's an organized group of trolls who expect to force a name-only release by being annoying.
It’s been evident for many months, even before the invasion, that this is a concerted letter-writing campaign. These are usually organized by people who believe the same request, repeated enough times, will influence technical decisions. Some telltale signs that requesters are reading from the same script are the common tagline (“Kyiv not Kiev”), the common insistence that the use of “Kiev” is an “error” rather than simply an obsoletism, retained up until now for stability, and the common, self-evident pattern of brand-new participants posting without first reading the list archives or documentation. More recently, there is also the common appeal that this change should be made not on the basis of “mainstream English spelling,” but as a protest against the 2014 and 2022 invasions. Technical decisions are much more justifiably made by a single contributor with sound rationale and evidence than by a thousand visitors who act as though they are signing a petition. Marc Wick wrote:
I am in favor of releasing the change.
The change will be released.
The current situation is only comparable to September 1939 and setting a precedent can not be feared.
No matter how strongly we oppose the current and 2014 invasions, or the actions of the Third Reich, time zone identifiers are not political statements. -- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
Doug Ewell wrote:
No matter how strongly we oppose the current and 2014 invasions, or the actions of the Third Reich, time zone identifiers are not political statements.
Indeed they are not. Well said. (In fact it's right up there with Jamie Lee Curtis's line from A Fish Called Wanda: "The London Underground is not a political movement.") As regulars well know, but newcomers may not, time zone identifiers are just that: identifiers. They're somewhat arbitrary; they're not primarily intended for human consumption. If you can imagine for a moment that the identifier for the zone of interest here was not the string "Europe/Kyiv", but rather, the number 7252, we wouldn't be having these internecine and unnecessarily politicized debates over spelling. What end-user interfaces are there that present raw tz identifiers for selection, and that might therefore confuse or offend users if the spellings are culturally inappropriate? If the time and energy being spent lobbying this list for unnecessary changes to the database could instead be directed towards rooting out and correcting those interfaces, it would be far more productive. (A while back, I went and implemented the old suggestion that we augment or replace the tz names by arbitrary numbers like 7252. I suppose I should post that code for consideration.)
No matter how strongly we oppose the current and 2014 invasions, or the actions of the Third Reich, time zone identifiers are not political statements.
Indeed they are not. For those of you who have no social, cultural and historical background with the current KyivNotKiev issue, it is not an error.
they're not primarily intended for human consumption. And yet I can see it as a user; it bothers me that it is wrong.
was not the string "Europe/Kyiv", but rather, the number 7252, I would (personally) rather prefer it as a number than an incorrect identifier.
вт, 5 июл. 2022 г. в 22:46, Steve Summit via tz <tz@iana.org>:
Doug Ewell wrote:
No matter how strongly we oppose the current and 2014 invasions, or the actions of the Third Reich, time zone identifiers are not political statements.
Indeed they are not. Well said. (In fact it's right up there with Jamie Lee Curtis's line from A Fish Called Wanda: "The London Underground is not a political movement.")
As regulars well know, but newcomers may not, time zone identifiers are just that: identifiers. They're somewhat arbitrary; they're not primarily intended for human consumption. If you can imagine for a moment that the identifier for the zone of interest here was not the string "Europe/Kyiv", but rather, the number 7252, we wouldn't be having these internecine and unnecessarily politicized debates over spelling.
What end-user interfaces are there that present raw tz identifiers for selection, and that might therefore confuse or offend users if the spellings are culturally inappropriate? If the time and energy being spent lobbying this list for unnecessary changes to the database could instead be directed towards rooting out and correcting those interfaces, it would be far more productive.
(A while back, I went and implemented the old suggestion that we augment or replace the tz names by arbitrary numbers like 7252. I suppose I should post that code for consideration.)
Dear TZ WG, Hope this email finds you in good health! ...i would first like to thank you all for your voluntary dedication to maintaining the Timezone data & codes. Please see my comments below, inline... Thanks. Le mardi 5 juillet 2022, Doug Ewell via tz <tz@iana.org> a écrit :
Bill Seymour wrote:
[...]
Technical decisions are much more justifiably made by a single contributor with sound rationale and evidence than by a thousand visitors who act as though they are signing a petition.
Hi Doug, Thanks for mentionning these basics of consensus [1] based decision making working groups, brother! __ [1]: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282> Shalom, --sb.
Marc Wick wrote:
I am in favor of releasing the change.
The change will be released.
The current situation is only comparable to September 1939 and setting a precedent can not be feared.
No matter how strongly we oppose the current and 2014 invasions, or the actions of the Third Reich, time zone identifiers are not political statements.
-- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
-- Best Regards ! __ baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|<https://cmnog.cm/dokuwiki/Structure> Subscribe to Mailing List: <https://lists.cmnog.cm/mailman/listinfo/cmnog/> __ #LASAINTEBIBLE|#Romains15:33«Que LE #DIEU de #Paix soit avec vous tous! #Amen!» #MaPrière est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chrétiennement «Comme une biche soupire après des courants d’eau, ainsi mon âme soupire après TOI, ô DIEU!»(#Psaumes42:2)
More recently, there is also the common appeal that this change should be made not on the basis of “mainstream English spelling,”
Neither Kyiv nor Kiev is an English spelling word, it is a Roman-letter (Latin) spelling word.
but as a protest against the 2014 and 2022 invasions For years people cannot separate Ukraine from russia. Kiev is something that was in soviet union and continues to be in russia. But Ukraine is an independent country, we always have Kyiv. And keeping Kiev instead of Kyiv is your way of saying that we do not consider you as a country. Up until 2014 some of you have never heard about Ukraine, but it does not mean that there were no errors in naming Kyiv as Kiev. It has always been an error. Considering it as a protest is your way to dissociate yourself from reality.
вт, 5 июл. 2022 г. в 21:14, Doug Ewell via tz <tz@iana.org>:
Bill Seymour wrote:
It's beginning to look like there's an organized group of trolls who expect to force a name-only release by being annoying.
It’s been evident for many months, even before the invasion, that this is a concerted letter-writing campaign. These are usually organized by people who believe the same request, repeated enough times, will influence technical decisions.
Some telltale signs that requesters are reading from the same script are the common tagline (“Kyiv not Kiev”), the common insistence that the use of “Kiev” is an “error” rather than simply an obsoletism, retained up until now for stability, and the common, self-evident pattern of brand-new participants posting without first reading the list archives or documentation.
More recently, there is also the common appeal that this change should be made not on the basis of “mainstream English spelling,” but as a protest against the 2014 and 2022 invasions.
Technical decisions are much more justifiably made by a single contributor with sound rationale and evidence than by a thousand visitors who act as though they are signing a petition.
Marc Wick wrote:
I am in favor of releasing the change.
The change will be released.
The current situation is only comparable to September 1939 and setting a precedent can not be feared.
No matter how strongly we oppose the current and 2014 invasions, or the actions of the Third Reich, time zone identifiers are not political statements.
-- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
Petro Ord wrote:
More recently, there is also the common appeal that this change should be made not on the basis of “mainstream English spelling,”
Neither Kyiv nor Kiev is an English spelling word, it is a Roman- letter (Latin) spelling word.
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically spelled in English-language contexts. It does not imply that every word within that context must be a native English word.
And keeping Kiev instead of Kyiv is your way of saying that we do not consider you as a country. [...] Considering it as a protest is your way to dissociate yourself from reality.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list. -- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically spelled in English-language contexts. It does not say so, it is your interpretation.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list. You may think differently or have other intent, but it does not change the fact that prompt updated in Crimea in 2014 and persistent KyivNotKiev error are done for political reason in favor of terrorist country - russia
ср, 6 июл. 2022 г. в 00:31, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>:
Petro Ord wrote:
More recently, there is also the common appeal that this change should be made not on the basis of “mainstream English spelling,”
Neither Kyiv nor Kiev is an English spelling word, it is a Roman- letter (Latin) spelling word.
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically spelled in English-language contexts. It does not imply that every word within that context must be a native English word.
And keeping Kiev instead of Kyiv is your way of saying that we do not consider you as a country. [...] Considering it as a protest is your way to dissociate yourself from reality.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list.
-- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
On 5 July 2022 22:50:01 BST, Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically spelled in English-language contexts. It does not say so, it is your interpretation.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list. You may think differently or have other intent, but it does not change the fact that prompt updated in Crimea in 2014 and persistent KyivNotKiev error are done for political reason in favor of terrorist country - russia
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed. Reading anything else into this is incorrect. Now please shut up and wait until a next release of tzdata is made. cheers Derick
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed. Time in the Crimea was changed solely in support of the russian invasion (and in a few days). Name Kyiv has not been corrected also to show support of the terrorist country (this error persists in the tzdb since 1991).
Nowhere in the "theory and pragmatics of the tz code and data" it is explained or clarified why Kyiv was chosen over Kiev. “Mainstream English spelling” does not have any hidden meanings, it says "spelling" not "usage", "popularity" or else, it says "spelling". ср, 6 июл. 2022 г. в 01:03, Derick Rethans <tz@derickrethans.nl>:
On 5 July 2022 22:50:01 BST, Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically spelled in English-language contexts. It does not say so, it is your interpretation.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list. You may think differently or have other intent, but it does not change the fact that prompt updated in Crimea in 2014 and persistent KyivNotKiev error are done for political reason in favor of terrorist country - russia
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed.
Reading anything else into this is incorrect.
Now please shut up and wait until a next release of tzdata is made.
cheers Derick
I feel it necessary to reiterate my call for not engaging. This "argument" is meritless and circular. There is nothing new to add from anyone. As someone who is subscribed to this list to stay up-to-date with changes to tzdb, I find this thread in particular extremely annoying and spammy. At some point I will be working on support for tzdb in Rust's most widely used time handling library. If I am not subscribed to this list, it will impact far more people than just me: it will affect an entire programming language. Ultimately there is a choice to be made, and it's not on my end. I should not have to resort to this, but I'm not wasting my time handling repetitive, insulting, and derogatory emails. The choice is yours. Jacob Pratt On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 19:39 Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed. Time in the Crimea was changed solely in support of the russian invasion (and in a few days). Name Kyiv has not been corrected also to show support of the terrorist country (this error persists in the tzdb since 1991).
Nowhere in the "theory and pragmatics of the tz code and data" it is explained or clarified why Kyiv was chosen over Kiev. “Mainstream English spelling” does not have any hidden meanings, it says "spelling" not "usage", "popularity" or else, it says "spelling".
ср, 6 июл. 2022 г. в 01:03, Derick Rethans <tz@derickrethans.nl>:
On 5 July 2022 22:50:01 BST, Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically
spelled in English-language contexts.
It does not say so, it is your interpretation.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list. You may think differently or have other intent, but it does not change the fact that prompt updated in Crimea in 2014 and persistent KyivNotKiev error are done for political reason in favor of terrorist country - russia
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed.
Reading anything else into this is incorrect.
Now please shut up and wait until a next release of tzdata is made.
cheers Derick
As someone who is subscribed to this list to stay up-to-date with changes to tzdb, I find this thread in particular extremely annoying and spammy. At some point I will be working on support for tzdb in Rust's most widely used time handling library. If I am not subscribed to this list, it will impact far more people than just me: it will affect an entire programming language. Ultimately there is a choice to be made, and it's not on my end. I should not have to resort to this, but I'm not wasting my time handling repetitive, insulting, and derogatory emails. The choice is yours.
The use of Kiev instead of Kyiv is also insulting and derogatory, but you choose to close your eyes and run away. The fact that timezone coordinators support terrorist country (russia) can be considered as annoying and spamming, but this is the truth. Persistent use of Kiev, Zaporozhie, Uzhgorod is the way to please russia, prompt time change in Crimea is the way to please russia. Remember silence is also killing people. вт, 12 июл. 2022 г. в 02:48, Jacob Pratt <jacob@jhpratt.dev>:
I feel it necessary to reiterate my call for not engaging. This "argument" is meritless and circular. There is nothing new to add from anyone.
As someone who is subscribed to this list to stay up-to-date with changes to tzdb, I find this thread in particular extremely annoying and spammy. At some point I will be working on support for tzdb in Rust's most widely used time handling library. If I am not subscribed to this list, it will impact far more people than just me: it will affect an entire programming language. Ultimately there is a choice to be made, and it's not on my end. I should not have to resort to this, but I'm not wasting my time handling repetitive, insulting, and derogatory emails. The choice is yours.
Jacob Pratt
On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 19:39 Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed. Time in the Crimea was changed solely in support of the russian invasion (and in a few days). Name Kyiv has not been corrected also to show support of the terrorist country (this error persists in the tzdb since 1991).
Nowhere in the "theory and pragmatics of the tz code and data" it is explained or clarified why Kyiv was chosen over Kiev. “Mainstream English spelling” does not have any hidden meanings, it says "spelling" not "usage", "popularity" or else, it says "spelling".
ср, 6 июл. 2022 г. в 01:03, Derick Rethans <tz@derickrethans.nl>:
On 5 July 2022 22:50:01 BST, Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
“Mainstream English spelling” refers to how a word is typically spelled in English-language contexts. It does not say so, it is your interpretation.
It is neither of those, and you are far out of line for making these baseless accusations about my intent or that of anyone else on this list. You may think differently or have other intent, but it does not change the fact that prompt updated in Crimea in 2014 and persistent KyivNotKiev error are done for political reason in favor of terrorist country - russia
No. It was updated because information on the ground indicates that the local time had changed.
Reading anything else into this is incorrect.
Now please shut up and wait until a next release of tzdata is made.
cheers Derick
The use of Kiev instead of Kyiv is also insulting and derogatory, but you choose to close your eyes and run away.
I found that there are significantly more websites using the 2LD .kiev.ua than .kyiv.ua. Therefore I don't think the use of Kiev is an error. https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A.kiev.ua https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A.kyiv.ua ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, July 12th, 2022 at AM 11:38, Petro Ord via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
As someone who is subscribed to this list to stay up-to-date with changes to tzdb, I find this thread in particular extremely annoying and spammy. At some point I will be working on support for tzdb in Rust's most widely used time handling library. If I am not subscribed to this list, it will impact far more people than just me: it will affect an entire programming language. Ultimately there is a choice to be made, and it's not on my end. I should not have to resort to this, but I'm not wasting my time handling repetitive, insulting, and derogatory emails. The choice is yours.
The use of Kiev instead of Kyiv is also insulting and derogatory, but you choose to close your eyes and run away.
The fact that timezone coordinators support terrorist country (russia) can be considered as annoying and spamming, but this is the truth. Persistent use of Kiev, Zaporozhie, Uzhgorod is the way to please russia, prompt time change in Crimea is the way to please russia.
Remember silence is also killing people.
вт, 12 июл. 2022 г. в 02:48, Jacob Pratt jacob@jhpratt.dev:
I feel it necessary to reiterate my call for not engaging. This "argument" is meritless and circular. There is nothing new to add from anyone.
As someone who is subscribed to this list to stay up-to-date with changes to tzdb, I find this thread in particular extremely annoying and spammy. At some point I will be working on support for tzdb in Rust's most widely used time handling library. If I am not subscribed to this list, it will impact far more people than just me: it will affect an entire programming language. Ultimately there is a choice to be made, and it's not on my end. I should not have to resort to this, but I'm not wasting my time handling repetitive, insulting, and derogatory emails. The choice is yours.
Jacob Pratt
participants (10)
-
Bill Seymour -
Derick Rethans -
Doug Ewell -
Jacob Pratt -
Marc Wick -
Petro Ord -
Pierre Cashon -
scs＠eskimo.com -
Sylvain Baya -
Yana Sukhoversha