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Time in Georgia
by Joseph S. Myers June 27, 2004

June 27, 2004

Seen at <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3843511.stm>: Times are a' changing in Georgia Georgia moved closer to Western Europe on Sunday - not physically but in terms of time. The former Soviet republic has changed its time zone back to that of Moscow. As a result it is now just four hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time, rather than five hours ahead. The switch was decreed by the pro-Western president of Georgia, Mikhail Saakashvili, who said the change was partly prompted by the process of integration into Europe. In the 1990s, Georgia switched to five rather than four hours ahead of GMT in an effort to combat the effects of a national energy crisis. The change back means Georgia is now three hours ahead of London and two hours ahead of Paris and Berlin. Georgia is about 1,600km (1,000 miles) south of the Russian capital, but only 400km to the east. -- Joseph S. Myers jsm(a)polyomino.org.uk

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pytz - Python World Timezones
by Stuart Bishop June 24, 2004

June 24, 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 http://sourceforge.net/projects/pytz/ pytz is a transformation of the public domain Olsen timezone database into pure Python code. This library allows accurate and cross platform timezone calculations using Python 2.3 or higher. This implementation solves the issue of ambiguous times at the end of daylight savings, which you can read more about in the Python Library Reference (datetime.tzinfo). The only remaining inaccuracy is that datetime.strftime only reports the UTC offset to the nearest minute (This is probably a feature - you have to draw a line somewhere). 536 of the Olsen timezones are supported. The missing few are for Riyadh Solar Time in 1987, 1988 and 1989. As Saudi Arabia gave up trying to cope with their timezone definition, I see no reason to complicate my code further to cope with them. (I understand the intention was to set sunset to 0:00 local time, the start of the Islamic day. In the best case caused the DST offset to change daily and worst case caused the DST offset to change each instant depending on how you interpreted the ruling.) Note that if you perform date arithmetic on local times that cross DST boundaries, the results may be in an incorrect timezone (ie. subtract 1 minute from 2002-10-27 1:00 EST and you get 2002-10-27 0:59 EST instead of the correct 2002-10-27 1:59 EDT). This cannot be resolved without modifying the Python datetime implementation. However, these tzinfo classes provide a normalize() method which allows you to correct these values. Installation ============ This is a standard Python distutils distribution. To install the package, run the following command as an administrative user:: python setup.py install License ======= BSD style license. I'm more than happy to relicense this code for inclusion in other open source projects. Example & Usage =============== >>> from datetime import datetime, timedelta >>> from pytz import timezone >>> utc = timezone('UTC') >>> eastern = timezone('US/Eastern') >>> utc_dt = datetime(2002, 10, 27, 6, 0, 0, tzinfo=utc) >>> loc_dt = utc_dt.astimezone(eastern) >>> fmt = '%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %Z (%z)' >>> loc_dt.strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 01:00:00 EST (-0500)' >>> (loc_dt - timedelta(minutes=10)).strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 00:50:00 EST (-0500)' >>> eastern.normalize(loc_dt - timedelta(minutes=10)).strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 01:50:00 EDT (-0400)' >>> (loc_dt + timedelta(minutes=10)).strftime(fmt) '2002-10-27 01:10:00 EST (-0500)' Latest Versions =============== This module will be updated after releases of the Olsen timezone database. The latest version can be downloaded from sourceforge_. .. _sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pytz/ Further Reading =============== More info than you want to know about timezones:: http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm Contact ======= Stuart Bishop <stuart(a)stuartbishop.net> - -- Stuart Bishop <stuart(a)stuartbishop.net> http://www.stuartbishop.net/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFA2bWTAfqZj7rGN0oRAjF0AJwMEwGDgODszthhjETIAUqXFSOxfACfbkeH hJh13lBU3ge5UYtes0niQu8= =sEx7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Re: 64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable
by WHarms＠bfs.de June 24, 2004

June 24, 2004

hi list, i see that a log of systems have moved to 64bit time_t (not only native 64bit systems). what happends if zdump move to mytime_t 64bit ? on 32bit that would extend the precission without any effect while 64bit system will be coverred automagicly. (hopes to ease fustration for ado :) walter - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: Paul Eggert <eggert(a)CS.UCLA.EDU> Subject: Re: 64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable Date: 06/18/04 23:29 Robert Elz <kre(a)munnari.oz.au> writes: > Certainly it isn't correct to simply cite the precedent of some > other (different) change, and act as if that was sufficient > justification for any new change. Sure. But here we've already seen precedent for this exact same change. Lots of operating systems have decided to use 64-bit time_t on 64-bit hosts. They all had their inevitable shakeout period. One (Tru64) distinguishes between time_t and time64_t, the way that ado proposed, but as far as I can tell, nobody else thought that the extra complexity is worth the hassle. These folks have already made their decision, in some cases many years ago, and they're unlikely to change their minds now no matter how much huffing and puffing we do. If we want to write code that is portable to 64-bit GNU/Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD 6, Microsoft Windows, etc., then we have to make sure it works with 64-bit time_t. > I can't imagine wanting to know about times that stretch from 1970 > to 1970 + 2.6 * 10^11, that's just absurd. I agree, and if we had to do it over again I'd design time_t differently, but it's too late to change this for the systems mentioned above.

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Argentina's timezone blues... aftermath
by Mariano Absatz June 23, 2004

June 23, 2004

Hi, I'm deeply sorry, I had a couple of completely maddening weeks and wasn't able to follow up on my postings... I couldn't even read if someone did... I'm posting old news so, if this has already been posted, please disregard my message (I'm not on my computer right now, and I can't easily access the list archive)... So... I know what's going on, but I couldn't find official sources... The 'official federal source', only says that the 'national' timezone is UTC-03:00 ( http://tinyurl.com/yvhh9 ). These media articles from a major newspaper mostly cover the current state http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/27/de_604825.asp http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/28/de_605203.asp The changes in Mendoza are those that Paul incorporated a couple of weeks ago. The following eight (8) provinces pulled clocks back to UTC-04:00 at midnight Monday May 31st. (that is, the night between 05/31 and 06/01). Catamarca Chubut La Rioja San Juan San Luis Santa Cruz Tierra del Fuego Tucumán Apparently, all nine provinces would go back to UTC-03:00 at the same time in October 17th. Sorry for providing so little info, so late.-- Mariano Absatz - El Baby mailto:baby@baby.com.ar http://www.baby.com.ar/ PGP KEYS: http://www.baby.com.ar/datos/personales.html#claves_pgp |\ _ _\\/'> Powered by Pegasus Mail /|__) http://www.pmail.com ) )\ ----------------------------------------------------------- The sex was so good that even the neighbors had a cigarette.

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64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 18, 2004

June 18, 2004

Given that time_t has been a 32-bit entity since day one of UNIX, there are a slew of binary executables out there that are built on the premise, as well as plenty of values stored in disk files (take UNIX accounting logs, please). That makes it an extremely bad idea to redefine time_t as a 64-bit value. This does not, of course, mean that it's a bad idea to have 64-bit time stamps available--as long as they're available under a different name (along with differently named functions to manipulate them). The historic precedent in the UNIX realm is the addition of the "lseek" system call once files got larger than good old "seek" could handle (even with the provision of seeks where the short-integer seek argument specified a block number rather than a byte number). So somewhere down the road we can expect to see entities such as ltime_t and lgmtime. Bottom line: we should probably not be doing a lot of work to support 64-bit time_t implementations since we don't want to encourage such implementations. --ado

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Time Zone Localizations
by Mark Davis June 18, 2004

June 18, 2004

The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations of time zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. A number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The goal would be to make changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. The current version of the proposal is at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatting/ti… I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄

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Re: 64-bit time_t must go--this is non-negotiable
by Paul Eggert June 18, 2004

June 18, 2004

matthew green <mrg(a)eterna.com.au> writes: > actually, no NetBSD platform uses a 64 bit time_t on any of the > several 64 bit machines it runs on. Sorry, my mistake. Thanks for correcting me. I was told in 1995 that NetBSD on Alpha used a 64-bit time_t, and never bothered to check (nor has anyone else corrected me despite my reporting this on Usenet for almost a decade, e.g., see <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=51ke97%2452d%40deck.twinsun.com>). I just checked Usenet, and FreeBSD started talking about the change to 64-bit time_t in 2001 and decided to do it one architecture at a time (sparc64 made the transition earlier this year). They're even making noises about using 64-bit time_t for x86, though that sounds a bit extreme. So I should have written "FreeBSD on some architectures" rather than "the BSDs".

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RE: zdump -v crashes with 64-bit time_t
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 17, 2004

June 17, 2004

> * Don't attempt to print out all the 64-bit time_t space, as that will > take nearly forever; instead, default to printing about 50 years > into the future, and don't bother to print times before about 1833. It might be better to cut off at something such as... 2050 + 100 * ((current_year - 1930) / 100) ...to ease regression testing; this would maintain a cutoff of 2050 until 2030, then boost the cutoff to 2150 until 2130, and so on. This way zdump output only changes every hundred years; the next change is set for eight years before 2038 and the miseries associated with T4G (you read the abbreviation here first) to provide ample time to catch bugs, while avoiding any output changes for the next 26 years. --ado

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FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 2:21 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Probably I've given you a confusing example. It's not related to Japanese locale at all. Since Paul and others have given another examples, like "Pacific War Time". I don't think I'd need to give additional examples. It is confusing to produce *correct* (past) local time with the current time zone name as if the current GMT offset and DST rules were applied to the local time. Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I am just not quite understanding what you are getting at. In CLDR, the >English translation of the TZID Asia/Singapore would be in the en >locale data; the Japanese translation of TZID Asia/Singapore would be in the ja locale file, etc. >(Note: we don't necessarily have the data for everything yet, but the >LDML format allows all of that.) > >The best I can make out, it sounds like what you want would be the 1942 >Japanese names for the TZID Asia/Singapore, etc.. While it would >certainly be possible to do that with CLDR by providing a variant >locale (ja-JP-1942), it seems rather odd. When I generate a date right >now, and the date happens to be in the past at some time, I don't >generate it with the conventions that would have applied in *on that >date* (unless I am doing a historical novel, for example). I don't >write 1624-1-15 as "The Fifteenth Day of January in the Year of Our >Lord Nineteen-Hundred Four-and-Twenty", or whatever would have been >accepted usage at the time: I write it (in en_US) as "January 15th, 1624" (or some other modern equivalent). > >So I must still be misunderstanding you. > >(Also, we looked at using the Olson TZID abbreviations, but they don't >appear to have wide currency -- people in the countries in question >didn't seem to be familiar with them -- so we decided not to use them.) > >Mark > >(BTW, I will be on a trip next week, and won't be able to reply very >often on this subject) > >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Sun, 2004 Jun 13 05:36 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >Probably *my* comment wasn't clear enough for you. But I believe that >I've been talking about the same thing as what was pointed out by Paul >(the second bullet of Message-id: <87isdxxm5a.fsf(a)penguin.cs.ucla.edu>). >I *am* talking about the names part, not the computing part. > >For example, Java is capable of *computing* correct local time as of >1942-02-16 in Asia/Singapore. However, since Java has only the last >time zone (display) names (i.e., "Singapore Time" and "SGT" for >Asia/Singapore), Java date/time formatting produces "Singapore Time" or >"SGT" for 1942-02-16, which should be "Japan Standard Time" or "JST". >(tzcode is capable of producing correct abbreviations. But I didn't >think that abbreviation only support for historic names was appropriate >for Java and I didn't add them in 1.4.) I see the same issue in the >LDML spec in <timeZoneNames> as Java currently has. > >My earlier comment included the following which may explain what I'd >like to see in the LDML spec. > ><timeZoneNames> > <zone type="America/Los_Angeles" > > <zoneNameSet format="SGT"> > <long> > <generic>Singapore Time</generic> > ... > </long> > <short> > <generic>SGT</generic> > ... > </short> > </zoneNameSet> > ... > <zoneNameSet format="LMT"> > <long> > <generic>Local Mean Time</generic> > ... > </long> > <short> > <generic>LMT</generic> > ... > </short> > </zoneNameSet> > </zone> >... ></timeZoneNames> > >The format="..." may be problematic. But I haven't thought out any real >syntax for the requirement. > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>I think we may be talking past one another. LDML provide for a way to >> >> >*localize* > > >>the Olson TZIDs. For example, you can localize the term >>"Asia/Singapore". That latter ID is the thing that identifies a timezone. >> >>It does not at all attempt to provide an alternative to *computing* >>the results of applying the Olson TZID to any given point in time. >>That is left to the implementation of the Olson time zone database. >>There is no need, nor desire, >> >> >to > > >>duplicate that in the LDML. >> >>As far as we are concerned, 'historic' time zone support simply means >>the ability for the time zone computation to reflect differences in >>behavior that existed in the past but no longer exist. An >>implementation that was only >> >> >limited > > >>to 'modern' time zones (like Windows, or older Java or ICU) would not >>be able >> >> >to > > >>distinguish between two zones that have the same behavior now, but >>differed at some time in the past. So the Olson time zone database >>encompasses historic >> >> >time > > >>zones, and has historic time zone IDs that LDML allows people to >>attach localizations to. >> >>Is that clearer? >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Sat, 2004 Jun 12 07:35 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>It's strange. I responded to your message about 13 hours ago, but it >>doesn't show up yet... Let me try again (with a short version). >> >>I believe you misunderstood my first question. It's simply an invalid >>assumption that a zone (in the Olson zoneinfo) represents a single >>time zone. How do you describe the following with the LDML spec, for example? >> >># Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] >>Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 >> 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. >> 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time >> 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 >> 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 >> 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 >> 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 >> 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence >> 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time >> 8:00 - SGT >> >>If the given date is, for example, 1942-02-16, the local time zone >>name has to be "JST" (in the short form). I didn't think LDML would >>allow for defining historical time zone names. I didn't mean >>"historical" tome zone *IDs*. (I really don't understand "modern" and >>"historical" in your message, though. All of (most of?) the zones are >>modern. They just have their own history. And we just don't know what >>will happen to zones in the future. What you think is "modern" today might be "historical" >>tomorrow.) >> >>Thanks, >>Masayoshi >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >>>IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >>>as matching the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>IDs >> >> >> >> >>>in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >>>http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >>>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >>> >>> >>>Mark Davis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>>>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>>>does >>>> >>>> >allow > > >>>>for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >>>LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way >>>to talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Masayoshi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that >>>>the sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>>>languages just >>>> >>>> >don't > > >>>>have corresponding terms. And we didn't give guidance before as to >>>>which IDs were the most important to translate, so the translations >>>>that are in CLDR >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>were >> >> >> >> >>>>not done in any kind of priority order. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>>__________________________________ >>>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>>>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>>>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>>>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>>>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >>>> >>>> >>>>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >>>> >>>>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >>>><timeZoneNames> >>>>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>>>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>>>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>>>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>>>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>>>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but >>>>I couldn't due to another commitment. >>>> >>>>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>>>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>>-- >>>>Masayoshi Okutsu >>>>Java Internationalization >>>>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >>>> >>>>Mark Davis wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for >>>>>translations of time zone >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>IDs, >> >> >> >> >>>>>based on the public domain time zone database at >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>A >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>>>goal would be to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>make >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of >>>>>this >>>>> >>>>> >year. > > >>>>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>>>> >>>>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/forma >>>>>tting/tim >>>>> >>>>> >e > > >>>>> >>>>> >>_ >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>z >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>one_localization.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>>>> >>>>>Mark >>>>>__________________________________ >>>>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

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FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 8:37 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Probably *my* comment wasn't clear enough for you. But I believe that I've been talking about the same thing as what was pointed out by Paul (the second bullet of Message-id: <87isdxxm5a.fsf(a)penguin.cs.ucla.edu>). I *am* talking about the names part, not the computing part. For example, Java is capable of *computing* correct local time as of 1942-02-16 in Asia/Singapore. However, since Java has only the last time zone (display) names (i.e., "Singapore Time" and "SGT" for Asia/Singapore), Java date/time formatting produces "Singapore Time" or "SGT" for 1942-02-16, which should be "Japan Standard Time" or "JST". (tzcode is capable of producing correct abbreviations. But I didn't think that abbreviation only support for historic names was appropriate for Java and I didn't add them in 1.4.) I see the same issue in the LDML spec in <timeZoneNames> as Java currently has. My earlier comment included the following which may explain what I'd like to see in the LDML spec. <timeZoneNames> <zone type="America/Los_Angeles" > <zoneNameSet format="SGT"> <long> <generic>Singapore Time</generic> ... </long> <short> <generic>SGT</generic> ... </short> </zoneNameSet> ... <zoneNameSet format="LMT"> <long> <generic>Local Mean Time</generic> ... </long> <short> <generic>LMT</generic> ... </short> </zoneNameSet> </zone> ... </timeZoneNames> The format="..." may be problematic. But I haven't thought out any real syntax for the requirement. Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I think we may be talking past one another. LDML provide for a way to >*localize* the Olson TZIDs. For example, you can localize the term >"Asia/Singapore". That latter ID is the thing that identifies a timezone. > >It does not at all attempt to provide an alternative to *computing* the >results of applying the Olson TZID to any given point in time. That is >left to the implementation of the Olson time zone database. There is no >need, nor desire, to duplicate that in the LDML. > >As far as we are concerned, 'historic' time zone support simply means >the ability for the time zone computation to reflect differences in >behavior that existed in the past but no longer exist. An >implementation that was only limited to 'modern' time zones (like >Windows, or older Java or ICU) would not be able to distinguish between >two zones that have the same behavior now, but differed at some time in >the past. So the Olson time zone database encompasses historic time >zones, and has historic time zone IDs that LDML allows people to attach localizations to. > >Is that clearer? > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Sat, 2004 Jun 12 07:35 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >It's strange. I responded to your message about 13 hours ago, but it >doesn't show up yet... Let me try again (with a short version). > >I believe you misunderstood my first question. It's simply an invalid >assumption that a zone (in the Olson zoneinfo) represents a single time >zone. How do you describe the following with the LDML spec, for example? > ># Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] >Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 > 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. > 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time > 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 > 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 > 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 > 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 > 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence > 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time > 8:00 - SGT > >If the given date is, for example, 1942-02-16, the local time zone name >has to be "JST" (in the short form). I didn't think LDML would allow >for defining historical time zone names. I didn't mean "historical" >tome zone *IDs*. (I really don't understand "modern" and "historical" >in your message, though. All of (most of?) the zones are modern. They >just have their own history. And we just don't know what will happen to >zones in the future. What you think is "modern" today might be "historical" >tomorrow.) > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >>IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >>as matching the >> >> >IDs > > >>in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >>http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>>does allow for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >>LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way >>to talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? >> >>Thanks, >>Masayoshi >> >> >> >> >> >>>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that the >>>sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>>languages just don't have corresponding terms. And we didn't give >>>guidance before as to which IDs were the most important to translate, >>>so the translations that are in CLDR >>> >>> >were > > >>>not done in any kind of priority order. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >>> >>> >>>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >>> >>>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >>><timeZoneNames> >>>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but >>>I couldn't due to another commitment. >>> >>>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >>> >>>Thanks, >>>-- >>>Masayoshi Okutsu >>>Java Internationalization >>>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >>> >>>Mark Davis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations >>>>of time zone >>>> >>>> >IDs, > > >>>>based on the public domain time zone database at >>>> >>>> >ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>A >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>>goal would be to >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>make >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >>>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>>> >>>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/format >>>>ting/time >>>> >>>> >_ > > >>>> >>>> >>z >> >> >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>one_localization.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>>> >>>>Mark >>>>__________________________________ >>>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 10:35 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations It's strange. I responded to your message about 13 hours ago, but it doesn't show up yet... Let me try again (with a short version). I believe you misunderstood my first question. It's simply an invalid assumption that a zone (in the Olson zoneinfo) represents a single time zone. How do you describe the following with the LDML spec, for example? # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time 8:00 - SGT If the given date is, for example, 1942-02-16, the local time zone name has to be "JST" (in the short form). I didn't think LDML would allow for defining historical time zone names. I didn't mean "historical" tome zone *IDs*. (I really don't understand "modern" and "historical" in your message, though. All of (most of?) the zones are modern. They just have their own history. And we just don't know what will happen to zones in the future. What you think is "modern" today might be "historical" tomorrow.) Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >as matching the IDs in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>does allow for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >> >> >> >> >I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way to >talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > > > >>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that the >>sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>languages just don't have corresponding terms. And we didn't give >>guidance before as to which IDs were the most important to translate, >>so the translations that are in CLDR were not done in any kind of priority order. >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >> >>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >><timeZoneNames> >>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but I >>couldn't due to another commitment. >> >>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >> >>Thanks, >>-- >>Masayoshi Okutsu >>Java Internationalization >>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations >>>of time zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>A >> >> >> >> >>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>goal would be to >>> >>> >>> >>> >>make >> >> >> >> >>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>> >>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatt >>>ing/time_ >>> >>> >z > > >>> >>> >>one_localization.html >> >> >> >> >>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 8:44 PM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Probably you have misunderstood my first question... Many zones have changed their time zones in their history. It's not a valid assumption that a single zone ID represents a single time zone. It may be confusing to say "zone changes time zones". Let me give you an example. Here's the history of Asia/Singapore. # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] Zone Asia/Singapore 6:55:25 - LMT 1901 Jan 1 6:55:25 - SMT 1905 Jun 1 # Singapore M.T. 7:00 - MALT 1933 Jan 1 # Malaya Time 7:00 0:20 MALST 1936 Jan 1 7:20 - MALT 1941 Sep 1 7:30 - MALT 1942 Feb 16 9:00 - JST 1945 Sep 12 7:30 - MALT 1965 Aug 9 # independence 7:30 - SGT 1982 Jan 1 # Singapore Time 8:00 - SGT During 1942-02-16 until 1945-09-12, Asia/Singapore's time zone was Japan Standard Time (GMT+09:00). (Sorry if this isn't a good example...) The LDML spec didn't look like supporting all historical time zones within a single zone. So what I'd like to see is something organized like: <zone type="Asia/Singapore" > <zoneNameSet format="SGT"> <long> <generic>Singapore Time</generic> <standard>Singapore Time</standard> <daylight>Singapore Time</daylight> </long> <short> <generic>SGT</generic> <standard>SGT</standard> <daylight>SGT</daylight> </short> </zoneNameSet> ... <zoneNameSet format="LMT"> <long> <generic>Local Mean Time</generic> ... <short> <generic>LMT</generic> ... </zoneNameSet> <exemplarCity>Singapore</exemplarCity> </zone> Obviously use of this structure involves redundant names. Probably it should have all name sets which can be referred to by <zone>. I got several bug reports on Java time zone support because it supports all historical changes since 1.4. Some customers were just confused with historically correct local time. Some of them could have been avoided if Java was capable of giving historically correct time zone names. Hope my question is now clearer. Thanks, Masayoshi Mark Davis wrote: >I don't know where you are getting that. They are *not* user-defined >IDs. The text in http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ defines the IDs >as matching the IDs in ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. See also >http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data_formats.html#Display_Names also. > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 08:41 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >>However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >>does allow for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. >> >> >> >> >I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that >LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way to >talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? > >Thanks, >Masayoshi > > > >>The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that the >>sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >>languages just don't have corresponding terms. And we didn't give >>guidance before as to which IDs were the most important to translate, >>so the translations that are in CLDR were not done in any kind of priority order. >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >>To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >>Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >>Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >>Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations >> >> >>This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. >> >>It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for >><timeZoneNames> >>(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes >>that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which >>assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >>Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >>supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >>time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but I >>couldn't due to another commitment. >> >>Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> >>spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? >> >>Thanks, >>-- >>Masayoshi Okutsu >>Java Internationalization >>Sun Microsystems (K.K.) >> >>Mark Davis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the >>>Unicode consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations >>>of time zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>A >> >> >> >> >>>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>>goal would be to >>> >>> >>> >>> >>make >> >> >> >> >>>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >>>The current version of the proposal is at: >>> >>>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatt >>>ing/time_ >>> >>> >z > > >>> >>> >>one_localization.html >> >> >> >> >>>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >>> >>>Mark >>>__________________________________ >>>http://www.macchiato.com >>>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 11:42 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Mark Davis wrote: >Actually, this is directly related, since LDML is the format used for CLDR. >However, the comment is based on a misunderstanding: LDML currently >does allow for translation of *all* of the timezone IDs, modern and historical. > > I guess you don't translate timezone IDs... Anyway, do you mean that LDML allows users to define DTD? (Sorry if this is not a correct way to talk about XML...) So the syntax of <zone> is really user-defined? Thanks, Masayoshi >The problems we are trying to address with this proposal are that the >sheer volume of translations is difficult to manage, *and* many >languages just don't have corresponding terms. And we didn't give >guidance before as to which IDs were the most important to translate, >so the translations that are in CLDR were not done in any kind of priority order. > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Masayoshi Okutsu" <Masayoshi.Okutsu(a)Sun.COM> >To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> >Cc: <tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov> >Sent: Fri, 2004 Jun 11 06:43 >Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations > > >This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. > >It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for ><timeZoneNames> >(http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes that >a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which assumption >is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. >Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it >supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" >time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but I >couldn't due to another commitment. > >Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> spec >so that it can represent all historical name changes? > >Thanks, >-- >Masayoshi Okutsu >Java Internationalization >Sun Microsystems (K.K.) > >Mark Davis wrote: > > > >>The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the Unicode >>consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations of time >>zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. >> >> >A > > >>number of issues have come up concerning those translations, and we >>have put together a proposal for changing the way that is done. The >>goal would be to >> >> >make > > >>changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >>The current version of the proposal is at: >> >>http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatti >>ng/time_z >> >> >one_localization.html > > >>I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. >> >>Mark >>__________________________________ >>http://www.macchiato.com >>► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 10:50 AM To: Chuck Soper Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations Chuck Soper wrote: > Are these tables informational or vital to the process? For example, > will the Aliases table be used to "Canonicalize the Olson ID" (step 1 > of the Fallback procedure)? If so, then the table should be based on > the current time zone data files instead of "current Java data". This > could turn into a serious maintenance issue. Ideally, I think that a > script could be run on the time zone data files to generate a new > aliases table each time the time zone data files are updated > (currently tzdata2004a). I agree. And it's unclear what the "current Java data" is. *My* current Java data is tzdata2004a, which is very unlikely to be shipped with 1.5... > Where did AET (line 2, Aliases table) for Australia/Sydney come from? > I can't find any reference to it in tzdata2004a. I guess it came from JDK1.1 compatibility names. Someone (not me!) invented 3-letter time zone IDs in JDK 1.1, which failed to support more time zones. Java uses the Olson zone IDs since 1.2. But we still have the JDK 1.1 compatibility names as far as they don't conflict with any Olson zone IDs. > ### Equivalent Modern Zones > My first reaction whenever I see a significant effort to simplify > something for the user is to think that it could lead to problems. I tend to agree with you. I think we should find out another way to reduce the number of localized time zone name strings. > How did you determine that "A lot of people just don't care about > historic differences"? Do most people use time zones merely to keep > track of the current time or current differences between another time > zone? How else do users use time zones? Right. And how can we define "current" for time zones which change their offsets some time in the future, like America/Mendoza in tzdata2004a? The day after tomorrow...? :-) Masayoshi

1 0

FW: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Masayoshi Okutsu has been added to the time zone mailing list; this is a message sent before Masayoshi was added. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Masayoshi Okutsu [mailto:Masayoshi.Okutsu@Sun.COM] Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:43 AM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations This is a bit off from the proposal, but related to time zone localizations. It appears that the Locale Data Markup Language spec for <timeZoneNames> (http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/#%3CtimeZoneNames%3E) assumes that a time zone has a single set of long and short names, which assumption is not valid if a system supports historical time zone changes. Actually, the time zone support in Java has this problem because it supports historical changes since 1.4 and always display the "latest" time zone names. I planned to fix it in J2SE 1.5 (a.k.a. Tiger), but I couldn't due to another commitment. Is it possible for CLDR to make corrections to the <timeZoneNames> spec so that it can represent all historical name changes? Thanks, -- Masayoshi Okutsu Java Internationalization Sun Microsystems (K.K.) Mark Davis wrote: >The common locale data repository project (CLDR) hosted by the Unicode >consortium (www.unicode.org/cldr/) provides for translations of time >zone IDs, based on the public domain time zone database at >ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/. A number of issues have come up >concerning those translations, and we have put together a proposal for >changing the way that is done. The goal would be to make changes in CLDR 1.1, which would be released around mid-October of this year. >The current version of the proposal is at: > >http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formattin >g/time_zone_localization.html > >I'd very much appreciate any feedback on the proposal. > >Mark >__________________________________ >http://www.macchiato.com >► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ > > > >

1 0

IERS Message No. 58: IERS Conventions Center: New discussion foru m and web site.
by IERS Central Bureau June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

*************************************************************************** IERS Message No. 58 June 15, 2004 *************************************************************************** IERS Conventions Center: New discussion forum and web site. The IERS Conventions center has developed a Discussion Forum and a new web and ftp site for the IERS Conventions, on a server at the BIPM. 1) The user discussion forum http://tai.bipm.org/iers/forum/ is open for users to offer their comments, criticism, and suggestions regarding the update of the IERS Conventions. It is organized in themes following the present structure of the IERS Conventions (2003). To post a contribution it is necessary to be registered. Registration is a very simple procedure. It is only necessary to provide a login_name and password, and a valid e-mail address. It is recommended that the login_name be representative of your real name because the login_name is used to identify the authors of contributions. Reading the contributions is open and anonymous. A number of contributions have been posted in advance of the public opening by Jim Ray in order to stimulate discussions. Responses and new contributions are welcome. 2) The new ftp site ftp://tai.bipm.org/iers/ has two directories: * ftp://tai.bipm.org/iers/conv2003/ is a mirror of the usual ftp site ftp://maia.usno.navy.mil/conv2003/ containing all files of the Conventions (2003) (Note that as of June 4, 2004 the pdf files of the chapters have not been updated on the USNO site). * ftp://tai.bipm.org/iers/convupdt/ is used to store material relative to future updates of the IERS Conventions. 3) The new web site http://tai.bipm.org/iers/ has two main pages: * http://tai.bipm.org/iers/conv2003/conv2003.html which ultimately points to the material of the Conventions (2003). * http://tai.bipm.org/iers/convupdt/convupdt.html which is used for Conventions updates. It is planned to save all the information on successive updates incrementing in the pages of each chapter. See an example version in http://tai.bipm.org/iers/convupdt/convupdt_c5.html Gérard Petit and Dennis D. McCarthy IERS Conventions Center *************************************************************************** IERS Messages are edited and distributed by the IERS Central Bureau. To subscribe or unsubscribe, please write to <central_bureau(a)iers.org>. Archives: http://www.iers.org/iers/publications/messages/ ***************************************************************************

1 0

RE: zdump -v crashes with 64-bit time_t
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 15, 2004

June 15, 2004

Here's a proposed change to zdump to avoid crashes when NULL is returned by asctime. --ado ------- zdump.c ------- *** /tmp/geta13866 Mon Jun 14 11:47:06 2004 --- /tmp/getb13866 Mon Jun 14 11:47:06 2004 *************** *** 1,4 **** ! static char elsieid[] = "@(#)zdump.c 7.31"; /* ** This code has been made independent of the rest of the time --- 1,4 ---- ! static char elsieid[] = "@(#)zdump.c 7.32"; /* ** This code has been made independent of the rest of the time *************** *** 334,339 **** --- 334,346 ---- return result; } + static char * + nonnull(s) + const char * const s; + { + return (s == NULL) ? "NULL" : s; + } + static void show(zone, t, v) char * zone; *************** *** 344,352 **** (void) printf("%-*s ", (int) longest, zone); if (v) ! (void) printf("%.24s UTC = ", asctime(gmtime(&t))); tmp = localtime(&t); ! (void) printf("%.24s", asctime(tmp)); if (*abbr(tmp) != '\0') (void) printf(" %s", abbr(tmp)); if (v) { --- 351,359 ---- (void) printf("%-*s ", (int) longest, zone); if (v) ! (void) printf("%.24s UTC = ", nonnull(asctime(gmtime(&t)))); tmp = localtime(&t); ! (void) printf("%.24s", nonnull(asctime(tmp))); if (*abbr(tmp) != '\0') (void) printf(" %s", abbr(tmp)); if (v) {

3 5

RE: Time Zone Localizations
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 14, 2004

June 14, 2004

Note, though, that there is foreseeable instability if I retire in 2012 as planned. (More on this when we reach 2007.) --ado -----Original Message----- From: Paul Eggert [mailto:eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU] Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:56 PM To: Mark Davis Cc: tz(a)lecserver.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Time Zone Localizations "Mark Davis" <mark.davis(a)jtcsv.com> writes: > ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/ > > Is there a stable link to a document that we could cite as the > specification for the IDs, instead of just pointing to an FTP site? When you ask for a "specification for the IDs", do you mean "which TZIDs are in the Olson database?" or "what syntax is allowed for the TZIDs?"? Either way, I'd say that the FTP site is the stable reference. According to my records that location dates back to April 25, 1992, so it's one of the most stable links on the planet.

3 2

FW: zdump -v crashes with 64-bit time_t
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 14, 2004

June 14, 2004

Andreas Schwab is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Schwab [mailto:schwab@suse.de] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:11 AM To: tz(a)elsie.nci.nih.gov Subject: zdump -v crashes with 64-bit time_t zdump does not cope with gmtime/localtime returning NULL, which can easily happen on systems having a 64-bit time_t when zdump tries to display the lowest/highest time_t value. GNU libc's implementation of gmtime/localtime returns NULL when tm_year would overflow. Also cf. the recent discussion on comp.std.c about asctime/ctime potentially writing beyond the internal buffer when the year is outside the range [-999, 9999] (although GNU libc's asctime does not have this particular problem). Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab(a)suse.de SuSE Linux AG, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different."

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proposed tz patch for Argentina, Aaland Islands, etc.
by Paul Eggert June 14, 2004

June 14, 2004

Here's a proposed patch to the tz database. It changes the Argentina data to reflect the June 1 time zone changes reported by Mariano Absatz. This patch also adds support for the new country code AX. To support these things, this patch adds the following Zone or Link lines: America/Rio_Gallegos America/Tucuman Europe/Mariehamn This patch also removes a few broken links from tz-link.htm, and adds a link to the new CLDR localization effort. =================================================================== RCS file: RCS/europe,v retrieving revision 2004.1 retrieving revision 2004.1.0.1 diff -pu -r2004.1 -r2004.1.0.1 --- europe 2004/05/27 16:00:30 2004.1 +++ europe 2004/06/14 07:46:16 2004.1.0.1 @@ -921,6 +921,10 @@ Zone Europe/Helsinki 1:39:52 - LMT 1878 2:00 Finland EE%sT 1981 Mar 29 2:00 2:00 EU EE%sT +# Aaland Is +Link Europe/Helsinki Europe/Mariehamn + + # France # From Ciro Discepolo (2000-12-20): =================================================================== RCS file: RCS/southamerica,v retrieving revision 2004.1 retrieving revision 2004.1.0.1 diff -pu -r2004.1 -r2004.1.0.1 --- southamerica 2004/05/27 16:00:30 2004.1 +++ southamerica 2004/06/14 07:46:16 2004.1.0.1 @@ -155,6 +155,19 @@ Rule Arg 2000 only - Mar Sun>=1 0:00 0 - # </a> says that standard time in Argentina from 1894-10-31 # to 1920-05-01 was -4:16:48.25. Go with this more-precise value # over Shanks. +# +# From Mariano Absatz (2004-06-05): +# These media articles from a major newspaper mostly cover the current state: +# http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/27/de_604825.asp +# http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/28/de_605203.asp +# +# The following eight (8) provinces pulled clocks back to UTC-04:00 at +# midnight Monday May 31st. (that is, the night between 05/31 and 06/01). +# Apparently, all nine provinces would go back to UTC-03:00 at the same +# time in October 17th. +# +# Catamarca, Chubut, La Rioja, San Juan, San Luis, Santa Cruz, +# Tierra del Fuego, Tucum # Unless otherwise specified, data are from Shanks through 1992, from # the IATA otherwise. As noted below, Shanks says that @@ -163,8 +176,7 @@ Rule Arg 2000 only - Mar Sun>=1 0:00 0 - # # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] # -# Buenos Aires (BA), Capital Federal (CF), Santa Cruz (SC), -# Tierra del Fuego, Antartida e Islas del Atlantico Sur (TF) +# Buenos Aires (BA), Capital Federal (CF), Zone America/Buenos_Aires -3:53:48 - LMT 1894 Oct 31 -4:16:48 - CMT 1920 May # Cordoba Mean Time -4:00 - ART 1930 Dec @@ -174,24 +186,37 @@ Zone America/Buenos_Aires -3:53:48 - LMT -3:00 - ART # # Santa Fe (SF), Entre Rios (ER), Corrientes (CN), Misiones (MN), Chaco (CC), -# Formosa (FM), Salta (SA), Tucuman (TM), Santiago del Estero (SE), -# Cordoba (CB), La Rioja (LR), San Juan (SJ), San Luis (SL), La Pampa (LP), -# Neuquen (NQ), Rio Negro (RN), Chubut (CH) +# Formosa (FM), Salta (SA), Santiago del Estero (SE), Cordoba (CB), +# La Pampa (LP), Neuquen (NQ), Rio Negro (RN) # # Shanks also makes the following claims, which we haven't verified: # - Formosa switched to -3:00 on 1991-01-07. -# - La Rioja and San Juan switched to -4:00 on 1991-03-01 -# and then to -3:00 on 1991-05-07. # - Misiones switched to -3:00 on 1990-12-29. # - Chaco switched to -3:00 on 1991-01-04. -# - San Luis switched to -4:00 on 1990-03-14, then to -3:00 on 1990-10-15, -# then to -4:00 on 1991-03-01, then to -3:00 on 1991-06-01. # - Santiago del Estero switched to -4:00 on 1991-04-01, # then to -3:00 on 1991-04-26. +# +Zone America/Cordoba -4:16:48 - LMT 1894 Oct 31 + -4:16:48 - CMT 1920 May + -4:00 - ART 1930 Dec + -4:00 Arg AR%sT 1969 Oct 5 + -3:00 Arg AR%sT 1991 Mar 3 + -4:00 - WART 1991 Oct 20 + -3:00 Arg AR%sT 1999 Oct 3 + -4:00 Arg AR%sT 2000 Mar 3 + -3:00 - ART +# +# Tucuman (TM), La Rioja (LR), San Juan (SJ), San Luis (SL), Chubut (CH) +# +# Shanks also makes the following claims, which we haven't verified: +# - La Rioja and San Juan switched to -4:00 on 1991-03-01 +# and then to -3:00 on 1991-05-07. +# - San Luis switched to -4:00 on 1990-03-14, then to -3:00 on 1990-10-15, +# then to -4:00 on 1991-03-01, then to -3:00 on 1991-06-01. # If we need to add Zones for these areas, we may need to have a subdirectory # for Argentina, as e.g. "America/San_Luis" is too ambiguious. # -Zone America/Cordoba -4:16:48 - LMT 1894 Oct 31 +Zone America/Tucuman -4:20:52 - LMT 1894 Oct 31 -4:16:48 - CMT 1920 May -4:00 - ART 1930 Dec -4:00 Arg AR%sT 1969 Oct 5 @@ -199,6 +224,8 @@ Zone America/Cordoba -4:16:48 - LMT 1894 -4:00 - WART 1991 Oct 20 -3:00 Arg AR%sT 1999 Oct 3 -4:00 Arg AR%sT 2000 Mar 3 + -3:00 - ART 2004 Jun 1 + -4:00 - WART 2004 Oct 17 -3:00 - ART # # Jujuy (JY) @@ -224,6 +251,8 @@ Zone America/Catamarca -4:23:08 - LMT 18 -4:00 - WART 1991 Oct 20 -3:00 Arg AR%sT 1999 Oct 3 -4:00 Arg AR%sT 2000 Mar 3 + -3:00 - ART 2004 Jun 1 + -4:00 - WART 2004 Oct 17 -3:00 - ART # # Mendoza (MZ) @@ -242,6 +271,17 @@ Zone America/Mendoza -4:35:16 - LMT 1894 -3:00 - ART 2004 May 23 -4:00 - WART 2004 Oct 17 -3:00 - ART +# +# Santa Cruz (SC), Tierra del Fuego, Antartida e Islas del Atlantico Sur (TF) +Zone America/Rio_Gallegos -4:36:52 - LMT 1894 Oct 31 + -4:16:48 - CMT 1920 May # Cordoba Mean Time + -4:00 - ART 1930 Dec + -4:00 Arg AR%sT 1969 Oct 5 + -3:00 Arg AR%sT 1999 Oct 3 + -4:00 Arg AR%sT 2000 Mar 3 + -3:00 - ART 2004 Jun 1 + -4:00 - WART 2004 Oct 17 + -3:00 - ART # Aruba # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] =================================================================== RCS file: RCS/iso3166.tab,v retrieving revision 2003.5 retrieving revision 2003.5.0.1 diff -pu -r2003.5 -r2003.5.0.1 --- iso3166.tab 2003/12/15 14:36:37 2003.5 +++ iso3166.tab 2004/06/14 07:46:16 2003.5.0.1 @@ -2,11 +2,11 @@ # # @(#)iso3166.tab 1.14 # -# From Paul Eggert <eggert(a)twinsun.com> (2003-02-04): +# From Paul Eggert <eggert(a)twinsun.com> (2004-06-14): # # This file contains a table with the following columns: # 1. ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 country code, current as of -# ISO 3166-1 Newsletter No. V-8 (2003-07-23). See: +# ISO 3166-1 Newsletter No. V-10 (2004-04-26). See: # <a href="http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/index.html"> # ISO 3166 Maintenance agency (ISO 3166/MA) # </a>. @@ -36,6 +36,7 @@ AS Samoa (American) AT Austria AU Australia AW Aruba +AX Aaland Islands AZ Azerbaijan BA Bosnia & Herzegovina BB Barbados =================================================================== RCS file: RCS/zone.tab,v retrieving revision 2003.4 retrieving revision 2003.4.0.1 diff -pu -r2003.4 -r2003.4.0.1 --- zone.tab 2003/10/06 13:32:21 2003.4 +++ zone.tab 2004/06/14 07:46:16 2003.4.0.1 @@ -41,11 +41,13 @@ AQ -6617+11031 Antarctica/Casey Casey St AQ -7824+10654 Antarctica/Vostok Vostok Station, S Magnetic Pole AQ -6640+14001 Antarctica/DumontDUrville Dumont-d'Urville Base, Terre Adelie AQ -690022+0393524 Antarctica/Syowa Syowa Station, E Ongul I -AR -3436-05827 America/Buenos_Aires E Argentina (BA, DF, SC, TF) -AR -3124-06411 America/Cordoba most locations (CB,CC,CH,CN,ER,FM,LP,LR,MN,NQ,RN,SA,SE,SF,SJ,SL,TM) +AR -3436-05827 America/Buenos_Aires Buenos Aires (BA, CF) +AR -3124-06411 America/Cordoba most locations (CB, CC, CN, ER, FM, LP, MN, NQ, RN, SA, SE, SF) +AR -3124-06411 America/Tucuman Tucuman, La Rioja, San Juan, San Luis, Chubut (CH, LR, SJ, SL, TM) AR -2411-06518 America/Jujuy Jujuy (JY) AR -2828-06547 America/Catamarca Catamarca (CT) AR -3253-06849 America/Mendoza Mendoza (MZ) +AR -5138-06913 America/Rio_Gallegos Santa Cruz, Tierra del Fuego (SC, TF) AS -1416-17042 Pacific/Pago_Pago AT +4813+01620 Europe/Vienna AU -3133+15905 Australia/Lord_Howe Lord Howe Island @@ -59,6 +61,7 @@ AU -3455+13835 Australia/Adelaide South AU -1228+13050 Australia/Darwin Northern Territory AU -3157+11551 Australia/Perth Western Australia AW +1230-06858 America/Aruba +AX +6006+01957 Europe/Mariehamn AZ +4023+04951 Asia/Baku BA +4352+01825 Europe/Sarajevo BB +1306-05937 America/Barbados =================================================================== RCS file: RCS/tz-link.htm,v retrieving revision 2004.1 retrieving revision 2004.1.0.1 diff -pu -r2004.1 -r2004.1.0.1 --- tz-link.htm 2004/05/27 16:00:30 2004.1 +++ tz-link.htm 2004/06/14 07:46:16 2004.1.0.1 @@ -9,7 +9,7 @@ <meta http-equiv="Content-type" content='text/html; charset="US-ASCII"' /> <meta name="DC.Creator" content="Eggert, Paul" /> <meta name="DC.Contributor" content="Olson, Arthur David" /> -<meta name="DC.Date" content="2004-05-24" /> +<meta name="DC.Date" content="2004-06-14" /> <meta name="DC.Description" content="Sources of information about time zones and daylight saving time" /> <meta name="DC.Identifier" content="http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm" /> @@ -109,9 +109,6 @@ World</a></li> <li><a href="http://www.convertit.com/Go/ConvertIt/World_Time/Current_Time.ASP">Current Time in 1000 Places</a></li> <li><a href="http://timezoneconverter.com/">Time Zone Converter</a></li> </ul></li> -<li><a href="http://www.holidayfestival.com/">The Worldwide Holiday -& Festival Site</a> lists DST-related clock changes along with -holidays.</li> <li><a href="http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/">The World Clock - Time Zones</a> is a web interface to a time zone database derived from @@ -152,9 +149,8 @@ contains a script <code>parse_olson</cod <code>tz</code> source into <a href="http://www.perl.org/">Perl</a> modules. It is part of the Perl <a href="http://datetime.perl.org/">DateTime Project</a>, which is freely -available under both the GPL and the Perl <a -href="http://www.perl.com/language/misc/Artistic.html">Artistic -License</a>. DateTime::TimeZone also contains a script +available under both the GPL and the Perl Artistic +License. DateTime::TimeZone also contains a script <code>tests_from_zdump</code> that generates test cases for each clock transition in the <code>tz</code> database.</li> <li><a href="http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/">International Components for @@ -184,7 +180,7 @@ is a <code>tz</code> binary file reader href="http://www.python.org/">Python</a>. It is freely available under a BSD-style license.</li> </ul> -<h2>Other <code>tz</code>-based time zone conversion software</h2> +<h2>Other <code>tz</code>-based time zone conversion software and standards</h2> <ul> <li><a href="http://java.sun.com/">Sun Java</a> releases since 1.4 contain a copy of a recent <samp>tz</samp> database in a Java-specific @@ -195,10 +191,16 @@ time zones calculator</a> is a HyperCard <li><a href="http://www.cimmyt.org/timezone/">World Time Explorer</a> is a Microsoft Windows program.</li> +<li><a +href="http://oss.software.ibm.com/cvs/icu/~checkout~/icuhtml/design/formatting/ti…">Time +Zone Localization</a> is a proposed mechanism for localizing time zone +labels and abbreviations; for example, one might use it to specify +Russian translations for "Eastern European Summer Time", "EEST", and +<code>Europe/Bucharest</code>.</li> </ul> <h2>Other time zone databases</h2> <ul> -<li><a href="http://www.astro.com/cgi-bin/atlw3/aq.cgi?lang=e">Atlas Query +<li><a href="http://www.astro.com/cgi/aq.cgi?lang=e">Atlas Query - Astrodienst</a> is Astrodienst's Web version of Shanks's excellent time zone history atlases published in both <a href="http://astrocom.com/software/pcatlas.php">computer</a> and <a @@ -217,7 +219,7 @@ for the <code>usno*</code> files in the <li><a href="http://www.airportcitycodes.com/aaa/">Airlines, Airplanes and Airports</a> lists current standard times for thousands of airports around the world. This seems to be derived from -the <a href="http://www.iata.org/sked/publications/">Standard +the <a href="http://www.iata.org/ps/publications/9179.htm">Standard Schedules Information Manual (SSIM)</a> of the the <a href="http://www.iata.org/">International Air Transport Association</a>, @@ -252,9 +254,7 @@ boundaries between time zones within cou <li>Manifold.net's <a href="http://www.manifold.net/download/freemaps.html">Free Maps and GIS Data</a> includes a Manifold-format map of world time zone -boundaries distributed under the GPL. The GeoCommunity's <a -href="http://software.geocomm.com/data/intl_timezones.html">International -Time Zones</a> publishes the same data in other formats.</li> +boundaries distributed under the GPL.</li> <li>The US Geological Survey's National Atlas of the United States publishes the <a href="http://www.nationalatlas.gov/timeznm.html">Time Zones of the United States</a> in the public domain.</li>

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another attempt to change the clocks in the UK
by Peter Ilieve June 9, 2004

June 9, 2004

The summer silly season is almost upon us, and here in the UK some MPs' thoughts are turning again to fiddling with the clocks. Yesterday (8 June) Nigel Beard MP introduced his Lighter Evenings Bill under what is called the ten minute rule. This would advance the clocks in England and Wales by one hour, still keeping summer time. The Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly could make a similar decision for their areas. One of the supporters of this Bill appears to be our old friend John Butterfill (now Sir John Butterfill), who has proposed his own Bill in the past. You can see the Commons order of business that includes this at <http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmagenda/ob040608.htm> and you can read Nigel Beard's speech in Hansard at <http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/cm040608/debtext… 08-05.htm#40608-05_head1>. I haven't found the text of the Bill itself yet. It will probably turn up on the Parliament website next week. Ten minute rule Bills have almost no chance of becoming law, so we don't have to worry too much about this yet. Peter Ilieve peter(a)aldie.co.uk

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FW: [Arthur David Olson: RE: tz list server problem?]
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) June 8, 2004

June 8, 2004

Dag-Erling is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately. --ado -----Original Message----- From: des(a)des.no [mailto:des@des.no] Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:08 PM To: Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) Cc: Garrett Wollman ... I was trying to suggest the following addition to etcetera: Index: etcetera =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/zoneinfo/etcetera,v retrieving revision 1.1.2.5 diff -u -r1.1.2.5 etcetera --- etcetera 6 Apr 2001 16:43:21 -0000 1.1.2.5 +++ etcetera 25 May 2004 16:38:14 -0000 @@ -16,6 +16,8 @@ # We want this to work even on installations that omit the other older names. Link Etc/GMT GMT +Link Etc/UTC UTC + Link Etc/UTC Etc/Universal Link Etc/UTC Etc/Zulu DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - des(a)des.no

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Argentina's timezones blues
by Mariano Absatz May 27, 2004

May 27, 2004

Hi, It's somehow hard to find the normative for each Province, but, according to the press, in the next days more Provinces will join Mendoza in setting the clocks back an hour to UTC-04:00. From http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/27/de_604825.asp http://www.clarin.com/diario/2004/05/27/elpais/p-00401.htm San Juan will do it at midnight Sunday 30th (yes, it's the night between Sunday and Monday, just don't ask, it gets worse yet) until October 17th. Tucumán will do it at midnight Monday 31th, and apparently, Chubut, La Rioja, Santa Cruz and Tierra del Fuego would do it also on Monday night. Santa Cruz is apparently waiting for a Provincial Congress confirmation (the other Provinces are using Governors' Decrees). San Luis would also change its tz on Monday night according to: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/04/05/27/de_604901.asp http://www.clarin.com/diario/2004/05/27/um/m-766786.htm The City of Buenos Aires, as well as the Provinces of Buenos Aires, Córdoba, Santa Fe, Entre Ríos and Corrientes confirmed they will NOT change the timezone this winter. The rest of the Provinces are supposed to be analyzing what to do... FWIW, Argentina consists of 23 Provinces and the Autonomous City of Buenos Aires: Ciudad de Buenos Aires (4) Buenos Aires (4) Catamarca Chaco Chubut (3) Córdoba (4) Corrientes (4) Entre Ríos (4) Formosa Jujuy La Pampa La Rioja (3) Mendoza (1) Misiones Neuquen Rio Negro Salta San Juan (2) San Luis (3) Santa Cruz (3) Santa Fe (4) Santiago del Estero Tierra del Fuego (3) Tucumán (3) (1) Already switched on May 23 (2) Would switch on May 30 (3) Would switch on May 31 (4) Would not switch this year FWIW, the districts included in (4) account for the most part of the population of the countries, including the cities where most corporations have their computers installed... Please... take into account that, except for (1) I'm taking this from the newspapers... I'll try to get some authoritative data, but I'm not sure if I'll be able... I'll keep informing you as this think develops... -- Mariano Absatz - El Baby mailto:baby@baby.com.ar http://www.baby.com.ar/ PGP KEYS: http://www.baby.com.ar/datos/personales.html#claves_pgp |\ _ _\\/'> Powered by Pegasus Mail /|__) http://www.pmail.com ) )\ ----------------------------------------------------------- Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -- Groucho Marx

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Re: America/Sao_Paulo DST problem
by Ruby Ballen May 27, 2004

May 27, 2004

I just tested in my system and the time was correctly reported before and after the transition on Feb 14 23:59:59. RBallen

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RE: America/Sao_Paulo DST problem
by Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) May 27, 2004

May 27, 2004

Here are a few lines of "zdump" output for America/Sao_Paulo: America/Sao_Paulo Sun Oct 19 03:00:00 2003 UTC = Sun Oct 19 01:00:00 2003 BRST isdst=1 America/Sao_Paulo Sun Feb 15 01:59:59 2004 UTC = Sat Feb 14 23:59:59 2004 BRST isdst=1 America/Sao_Paulo Sun Feb 15 02:00:00 2004 UTC = Sat Feb 14 23:00:00 2004 BRT isdst=0 America/Sao_Paulo Sun Oct 17 02:59:59 2004 UTC = Sat Oct 16 23:59:59 2004 BRT isdst=0 The important thing to note is at midnight on February 14 clocks are set back an hour. This means that there are two instants when a well-maintained Sao Paulo wall clock would read 11:00:00 PM on February 14 (as well as two instants when it would 11:00:01, 11:00:02, and so on through 11:59:59). The "my_date.c" program feeds year-mon-mday-hour-min-sec into mktime; the values being fed in lie in the "fall back" hour above. Mktime is supposed to return an instant when a wall clock shows the time that's been input to it; here, since there are two such instants (and since "tm_isdst" has been set to -1), mktime is allowed to pick either instant to return. It's luck of the draw that determines which instant mktime returns. --ado

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