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Re: Proposal for new ISO C 9x time API
by Markus Kuhn Sept. 20, 1998

Sept. 20, 1998

Chris Newman wrote on 1998-09-16 18:51 UTC: > I think it would be useful to have a function which returns the time and > duration of the next transition given time X and timezone Y (e.g., 2 AM > Mar 30 -1 hour). OK, that sounds like a good idea. I have just added a function tz_jump() to my proposal that I hope does what you want. It allows you to iterate through both leap seconds and timezone changes, perhaps even calendar exceptions. Please have a look at section 1.3.4 in http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/c-time/ Markus -- Markus G. Kuhn, Security Group, Computer Lab, Cambridge University, UK email: mkuhn at acm.org, home page: <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/>

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questions about FORMAT
by Kenneth Zadeck Sept. 18, 1998

Sept. 18, 1998

# Belize # Whitman entirely disagrees with Shanks; go with Shanks. # Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER/S Rule Belize 1918 1942 - Oct Sun>=2 0:00 0:30 HD Rule Belize 1919 1943 - Feb Sun>=9 0:00 0 S Rule Belize 1973 only - Dec 5 0:00 1:00 D Rule Belize 1974 only - Feb 9 0:00 0 S Rule Belize 1982 only - Dec 18 0:00 1:00 D Rule Belize 1983 only - Feb 12 0:00 0 S # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] Zone America/Belize -5:52:48 - LMT 1912 Apr -6:00 Belize C%sT The belize entry does not have a current rule and I take this to mean that they currently do not observe daylight savings time. The problem is, what is the value that is to be substituted into C%sT if there is no rule? Should the formatted name of the time zone be "CT" or "CST"? If it is supposed to be CST, how are you to know this? I am using Belize as an example, there are several timezones that have this same problem: Asia/Yerevan America/Buenos_Aires America/Barbados America/Belize Asia/Harbin America/Bogota America/Costa_Rica Africa/Accra America/Guatemala America/Tegucigalpa Asia/Tehran Asia/Seoul Asia/Macao America/Lima Asia/Manila Africa/Khartoum Africa/Freetown America/El_Salvador Africa/Tunis Asia/Taipei America/Montevideo Pacific/Efate As an extreme example of this problem is exhibited by Africa/Accra Africa/Freetown # Ghana # Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER/S # Whitman says DST was observed from 1931 to ``the present''; go with Shanks. Rule Ghana 1936 1942 - Sep 1 0:00 0:20 GHST Rule Ghana 1936 1942 - Dec 31 0:00 0 GMT # Zone NAME GMTOFF RULES FORMAT [UNTIL] Zone Africa/Accra -0:00:52 - LMT 1918 0:00 Ghana %s

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Re: Proposal for new ISO C 9x time API
by Rich Wales Sept. 18, 1998

Sept. 18, 1998

Antoine Leca wrote: Coca is the brand name under which Coke is know here in (Latin) Europe. Coca also happen to be the name of a traditional cake made in the region of my wife. Should the cake shop vendors change the name of the product . . . ? I see two big differences between the above example and the suggestion that the new API should be called "Timex". First, the traditional cake is a very different item from the beverage, so there is unlikely to be any confusion in the average person's mind as to whether the "coca" cake has anything at all to do with "Coca" cola. Second, the name "coca", as a traditional cake, was around long before "Coca" came into use as a beverage trademark. In North America, at least, my understanding is that these issues are considered significant in trademark law. for example, back in the days when "UNIX" was a trademark at various times of Bell Labs, AT&T, and others, I recall hearing it said that someone could (if they so desired) probably market "UNIX" brand ice cream (!) without infringing the trade- mark -- but using the term "UNIX" to identify any computer-related item (even something other than an OS) most likely wouldn't fly. I would view the "TIMEX" proposal in the same way. Using "TIMEX", "Timex", or "timex_" to identify anything having any relationship at all to time would, I assume, almost certainly provoke an unfriendly response by Timex Corporation's legal staff. First, Timex Corp. has already been venturing somewhat into the computer field with their "Data Link" line of watches with builtin personal information managers. Hence, they would probably be sensitive to =any= computer-related use of the "Timex" name by anyone but themselves. Second, even if the new API were obviously not going to compete for Timex's market share, they would surely put up a fight on principle, lest their precious registered trademark end up falling into common generic use (as has already happened with Kleenex, Xerox, and Coke). Just my (non-lawyer) opinion, of course. Rich Wales richw(a)webcom.com http://www.webcom.com/richw/ *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

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Re: Proposal for new ISO C 9x time API
by INFOMAN Inc. Sept. 18, 1998

Sept. 18, 1998

As an addendum to my earlier note, I was informed that "TIMEX" or "Timex" is likely a registered trademark of a watch manufacturer. Consequnetly to avoid difficulties, I suggest that we use the term "timex_" as the reference. To this we can then add "format" "resolve", etc. Another alternative would be to use "timx" as the term Regards - Jake Knoppers <mpereira(a)istar.ca>

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Re: (SC22WG14.6158) (SC22WG14.6131) (SC22WG14.6130) Summary of problems with draft C9x <time.h>, and a proposed fix
by Douglas.Walls＠Eng.Sun.COM Sept. 17, 1998

Sept. 17, 1998

We can do this in Santa Cruz, formally. >From gwyn(a)arl.mil Thu Sep 17 13:42:50 1998 > >I think we need to poll the voting members to determine whether >anybody insists on having struct tmx in C9x. If not, since there >has been some formal objection to it, backing out the struct tmx >related changes seems like an appropriate way to respond to >(adverse) public comment. > >Personally I'd rather see a completely satisfactory technical >solution than layering on a still-not-satisfactory solution. >Since I doubt the former can be done within the C9x schedule, >leaving <time.h> pretty much the way it was in C89 seems proper. >

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Re: (SC22WG14.6131) (SC22WG14.6130) Summary of problems with draft C9x <time.h>, and a proposed fix
by Douglas A. Gwyn (IST) Sept. 17, 1998

Sept. 17, 1998

I think we need to poll the voting members to determine whether anybody insists on having struct tmx in C9x. If not, since there has been some formal objection to it, backing out the struct tmx related changes seems like an appropriate way to respond to (adverse) public comment. Personally I'd rather see a completely satisfactory technical solution than layering on a still-not-satisfactory solution. Since I doubt the former can be done within the C9x schedule, leaving <time.h> pretty much the way it was in C89 seems proper.

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Re: Proposal for new ISO C 9x time API
by INFOMAN Inc. Sept. 17, 1998

Sept. 17, 1998

I would recommend using the term "timex". It is a invented term, a.k.a. coined term or neoligism, to which can be attached the apprpriate definition as well as a note at the end of such defintion of " Formerly known as xtime". "Time" as word is used with multiple meanings and its use can quickly become confusing and inadvertently may have unforeseen results. Having the x precede the _resolves the ambiguity resulting from the x after _ . Trust that this is of some help - Jake Knoppers P.S. For questions of this nature you may find ISO 2788 - Guidelines for the establishment and development of monoligual thesauri and ISO 5964 Guidelines for the establishment and development of multilingual thesauri to be of some help. They include rules for the establishment of terms and controlled vocabularies. If I can be of help elsewhere, SVP let me know.

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About the changes in the counting of time in The Republic of Latvia
by Liene Kanepe Sept. 17, 1998

Sept. 17, 1998

I have tried to collect information about all changes in the counting of time in Latvia. I asked about this matter Scientific Secretary of the Institute of Astronomy of The University of Latvia Dr. paed Mr. Ilgonis Vilks. I also searched the correct data in juridical acts and I found some juridical documents about changes in the counting of time in Latvia from 1981: - Act No.35 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 January,1981 on the order of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR; - Act No.592 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 24 September, 1984 on changes in the Act No.35 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 January,1981 on the order of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR; - Act No.81 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 March,1989 on the changes of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR; - Regulations of the Cabinet of Ministers of the Republic of Latvia of 21 January, 1997 on transition to Summer time. Act No.35 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 January,1981 on the order of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR according to the Act No. 925 of the Council of Ministers of USSR of 24 October, 1980 established such order of counting of time: all year round the time of 2nd time zona + 1 hour, in addition turning the hands of the clock 1 hour forward on the 1st April at 0.00 o'clock (GMT 31st March 21:00) and 1 hour backward on the 1st October at 0.00 o'clock (GMT 30 September 20:00). Act No.592 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 24 September, 1984 on changes in the Act No.35 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 January,1981 on the order of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR according to the Act No. 967 of the Council of Ministers of USSR of 13 September, 1984 established such order of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR: all year round the time of 2nd time zona + 1 hour, in addition turning the hands of the clock 1 hour forward on the last Sunday of March at 02.00 o'clock (GMT 23:00 on the previous day) and 1 hour backward on the last Sunday of September at 03.00 o'clock (GMT 23:00 on the previous day). Act No.81 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 March,1989 on the changes of counting of time on the territory of Latvian SSR according to the Act No. 227 of the Council of Ministers of USSR of 14 March, 1989 established such order of counting of time: since the last Sunday of March, 1989 in Lithuanian SSR, Latvian SSR, Estonian SSR and Kaliningrad region of Russian Federation all year round the time of 2nd time zona (Moscow time minus one hour). On the territory of Latvia transition to summer time is performed on the last Sunday of March at 02.00 o'clock (GMT 0:00), turning the hands of the clock 1 hour forward . The end of daylight saving time is performed on the last Sunday of September at 03.00 o'clock (GMT 0:00), turning the hands of the clock 1 hour backward. Exception is 26 March of 1989, when we must not turn the hands of the clock. According the Act No.81 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 March,1989 Act No.35 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 January,1981 and Act No.592 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 24 September, 1984 lost validity. In 1996, when the European Union changed the end of daylight savings time to the last Sunday of October, Latvia had not changed the end of daylight savings time. And this is pardonable for Latvia, because it is not a member - state of the European Union. Latvia changed the end of daylight savings time to the last Sunday of October only in 1997. Then were accepted the Regulations of the Cabinet of Ministers of the Republic of Latvia of 21 January, 1997 on transition to Summer time. According these regulations Act No.81 of the Council of Ministers of Latvian SSR of 22 March,1989 lost validity and was established the same order of daylight savings time settings as in the States of the European Union. From the 1997 Latvia changes from Winter time to Summer time on the last Sunday of March at 3 a.m.(Latvian time) or 1.00 GMT. It changes from Summer time to Winter time on the last Sunday of October at 4 a.m. (Latvian time) or 1 GMT. Here are exact data for Latvia in the period from 1981. |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |The date when |The hour (GMT)|The character |Time offset | |time changes |when time |of time |from GMT for | |were performed|changes were |changes |the Republic | | |performed | |of Latvia | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| |Time offset | |from GMT for | |Moscow | |(Russia) | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |31st March, | 21:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1981 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 September, | 20:00 | (-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1981 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |31 st March, | 21:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1982 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 September, | 20:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1982 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |31 st March, | 21:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1983 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 September,| 20:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1983 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |31 st March, | 21:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1984 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |29 September, | 23:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1984 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 th March, | 23:00 | (+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1985 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |28 September,| 23:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1985 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |29 th March, | 23:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1986 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |27 September, | 23:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1986 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |28 th March, | 23:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1987 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |26 September, | 23:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1987 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |26 th March, | 23:00 |(+1 h Summer | 4 hours | |1988 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |24 September, | 23:00 |(-1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1988 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |25 th March, | 23:00 |(+1 h Summer | | |1989 | |time in all | 3 hours | | | |territory of | | | | |USSR and -1 | | | | |hour in | | | | |Latvia, | | | | |Lithuania and | | | | |Estonia) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | | | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |24 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1989 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |24 th March, | 0:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1990 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |29 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1990 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 th March, | 0:00 |(-1 h Decree | 3 hours | |1991 | |time in | | | | |Russia, but | | | | |not in Latvia | | | | |and +1 h | | | | |Summer time in| | | | |both states) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |29 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1991 | |time), | | | | | | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 2 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |19 th January,| 01:00 |(+ 1 h Decree | 2 hours | |1992 | |time in | | | | |Russia, but no| | | | |changes in | | | | |Latvia) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |28 th March, | 0:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1992 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |26 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1992 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |27 th March, | 0:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1993 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |25 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1993 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |26 th March, | 0:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1994 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |24 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1994 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |25 th March, | 0:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1995 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |23 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1995 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 th March, | 0:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1996 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |28 September, | 0:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1996 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |30 th March, | 01:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1997 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |26 October, | 01:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1997 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |29 th March, | 01:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1998 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |25 October, | 01:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1998 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |28 th March, | 01:00 |(+1 h Summer | 3 hours | |1999 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 4 hours | >--------------| |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> |31 October, | 01:00 |(-1 h Summer | 2 hours | |1999 | |time) | | |--------------+--------------+--------------+--------------> >--------------| | 3 hours | >--------------| In the period from the end of the Second World War on the territory of Latvia (13 October, 1944 for Riga) until the 31st March, 1981, GMT 21:00 the time offset from GMT for Latvia was 3 hours. It seems, that before 13 October, 1944 it was 2 hours, except the period, when Latvia was incorporated in the Soviet Union (approximatly from 05 August, 1940 until 21 June, 1941) and the period, when during the Second World War Latvia was occupied by Germany. If I find the more correct data about the time offset from GMT for Latvia in the period before 1944, I will mail You. With the best regards from The Republic of Latvia, Riga Liene Kanepe

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Re: Proposal for new ISO C 9x time API
by Ken Pizzini Sept. 16, 1998

Sept. 16, 1998

In message <13823.62501.12960.906883@localhost>, Nathan Myers <ncm(a)cantrip.org> wrote: > The names strfxtime, xtime_make, and xtime_breakup are inconsistent > and not ideally chosen. May I suggest instead > > xtime_format: "To plan or arrange in a specified form" > xtime_compose: "To make or create by putting together parts or elements." > xtime_resolve: "To separate (something) into constituent parts." > > respectively? (Quotes are from the Random House unabridged dictionary.) There is an old tradition of language design that the language and its libraries strongly avoid using identifiers starting with the letter "x" --- a desperate application writer can then blithely prepenend an "x" to all its first-choice identifiers and be safe. I'd much prefer to see this tradition upheld; perhaps: timex_format, timex_compose, timex_resolve or time_xformat, time_xcompose, time_xresolve instead? --Ken Pizzini

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Tony Milton/Technology/UK/PARIBAS is out of the office.
by Tony_Milton＠paribas.com Sept. 15, 1998

Sept. 15, 1998

I will be out of the office from 12 September 1998 until 21 September 1998. I will respond to your message when I return. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message is confidential; its contents do not constitute a commitment by Paribas except where provided for in a written agreement between you and Paribas. Any unauthorised disclosure, use or dissemination, either whole or partial, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of the message, please notify the sender immediately. Ce message est confidentiel ; son contenu ne repr�sente en aucun cas un engagement de la part de Paribas sous r�serve de tout accord conclu par �crit entre vous et Paribas. Toute publication, utilisation ou diffusion, m�me partielle, doit �tre autoris�e pr�alablement. Si vous n'�tes pas destinataire de ce message, merci d'en avertir imm�diatement l'exp�diteur.

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