May 2012 - tz - lists.iana.org

Stable fixed length identifiers for IANA time zones
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

Steven, Mark, I checked the latest timezone.xml contained in core.zip linked from http://cldr.unicode.org/index/bcp47-extension Are the values for the names that are not /[a-z]{5}/ , e.g. <type name="mxstis" ... > already permanently fixed? What happens if Santa Isabel gets an UN/LOCODE in the future? I am using UN/LOCODEs since at least 2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UN/LOCODE&diff=prev&oldid=1414613 In my system the first two letters never map into a set of ISO 3166-1 countries (current and former) without one set member being or having been the country for the location, e.g. "jeruslm", the first letters, JE, stand for Jersey, which never was a country where Jerusalem was located. If there is "usnavajo" placing "navajo" below "us", then <type name="jeruslm" alias="Asia/Jerusalem Asia/Tel_Aviv Israel" description="Jerusalem"/> is inconsistent, since Asia/Jerusalem is used for Israel, which would lead to "iljerusalem" or so and instead of "hebron" and "gaza" it would be "pshebron" and "psgaza" Since UN/LOCODE doesn't use the numbers 0 and 1, I created private codes using "1" in third position, so for Santa Isabel I would use MX1SI or in lower case mx1si for Hebron PS1HB, Gaza PS1GZ That way the codes all can be of the same length, namely 5 characters. Tobias On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Steven R. Loomis <srl(a)icu-project.org> wrote: > On 05/24/2012 04:27 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote: ... > E.g. CLDR has created UN/LOCODE based codes: > http://cldr.unicode.org/development/development-process/design-proposals/bc… > > > This a draft design document proposing what is now the 'tz' field of IETF > BCP 47 Extension U < https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6067> referencing UTS35 > and data < > http://unicode.org/reports/tr35/#Unicode_Language_and_Locale_Identifiers>. > However, it is not relevant to simply the discussion of "." and "-", > instead, the UN/LOCODE based codes (with some additions) were needed due to > length restrictions. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Bug - Statement by Paul Eggert (a TZ Coordinator) on update process not agreeing with IANA sources
by SM May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

At 10:56 26-05-2012, Tobias Conradi wrote: >Restricted by the following: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6557 >BCP 175 [snip] >"The TZ Coordinator is an IANA Designated Expert" In my opinion RFC 6557 was an attempt to document some of the details about the "TZ Database" and it is self-contained except for two explicit references about the work. A lot of stuff is left to the discretion of the TZ coordinator. There are some guidelines to allow resolution if there is an extreme case. Regards, -sm

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Proposal to deprecate "." and "-" in zone names
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

CURRENT ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/code/Theory says "Within a file name component, use only ASCII letters, `.', `-' and `_'." In ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/zone.tab I found none having "." I found three having "-": America/Blanc-Sablon Africa/Porto-Novo America/Port-au-Prince PROPOSED Change ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/code/Theory "Within a file name component, use only ASCII letters and `_'." REASONING @"." "." is not used, document current usage. Reduce number of possible variations. @"-" Reduce number of possible variations. Avoid discussions about names as happened with the zone proposal for the Crozet Islands "Alfred-Faure" vs "Alfred Faure". @both Some environments don't allow "/". Since "/" is part of the zone name, a replacement may be needed. If "." and "-" are not allowed for zone names anymore, then they can be used for replacing "/". -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Bug - Statement by Paul Eggert (a TZ Coordinator) on update process not agreeing with IANA sources
by SM May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

Arthur David Olson posted a message about a new home for time zone stuff in August 2009 [1]. The time zone stuff used to be called the Olson database. Robert Elz provided a temporary home for the Olson database in October 2011 [2]. Paul Eggert was suggested as TZ coordinator in March 2012 [3]. The mailing list was supposed to be be used just as it has been: to learn of, discuss, and confirm TZ definition changes, as well as to serve as an announcement list for new versions of the database. In my humble opinion it is up to the TZ coordinator to determine what to do about the details of the Olson database. Regards, -sm 1. http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-August/015734.html 2. http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/016898.html 3. http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-March/017597.html

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Proposal to define a Private Use Area within the zone naming scheme
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

CURRENT: No private use area defined. PROPOSAL: Define a private use area. Use AA or Aa to have the name start with the same letter as most other Areas that represent continents do (America, Africa, Asia, Australia) Since AA is an ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 private code, it can be used by CLDR, that uses UN/LOCODEs, too, to define a private range. The private range would be defined on the top level, so it is not affected by any change to the Area names (America, Africa, Asia, Australia, etc.) Organizations are then free to have their own subareas inside, e.g. i Aa/NorwayGov/Bouvet/ Aa/RussiaGov/Barnaul/ Aa/GemBuesingen/Buesingen/ Aa/Pre1970project/ Aa/JohnDoe/ Aa/Legal/ (legal time instead of majority observed time) REASONING: Allow people to create zones having names that will not be the same as IANA time zone names. This is helpful when the IANA time zone database maintainers do not fix bugs (e.g. West Siberia) and do not create zones for regions solely because they have no permanent population, despite the time there being defined by law of the sovereign state to which it belongs (Bouvet Island). == Systems having a private use area == === Country codes === ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 AA, QM ... QZ, XA ...XZ, ZZ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#User-assigned_code_elements ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 AAA ... AAZ, QMA ... QZZ, XAA ... XZZ, ZZA ... ZZZ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-3#User-assigned_code_elements ISO 3166-1 numeric 900 ... 999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_numeric#User-assigned_code_elements === Script codes === ISO 15924 Qaaa ... Qabx (900 ... 949): 50 Codes reserved for private use. === Language codes === ISO 639-3 Private Use Area (range qaa to qtz) -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Infrastructure - bug tracking system
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

Kim, apart from TZ Coordinator Paul Eggert you are the only person I know of that has an official position involved with the IANA time zone database. Is it possible for IANA to provide a bug tracking system for the IANA time zone database maintenance? Currently there are several unfixed bugs, but I can see no full listing of them. So same bugs may get reported several times or stay unfixed without being reported again for a long time. I am aware of several bugs, inconsistencies and suggestions for possible improvements I sent to the mailing list and also of some sent by other people e.g. Alexander Krivenyshev (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008798.html) Andrew Paprocki (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017854.html) Guy Harris (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017756.html) Ian Abbott (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017725.html) But these or only from the time when I was member of the mailing list. Maybe there are several more bugs that are still not fixed. Tobias -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Bugs in Russia - West Siberia - Eight months past since 2011-09-17
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

Just a reminder for Tobias Conradi Wed Apr 18 20:10:55 UTC 2012 http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-April/017638.html [tz] Bugs in Russia - Seven month past since 2011-09-17 - still not fixed -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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"Discussion of Tobias Conradi"
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

was: Bug - Statement by Paul Eggert (a TZ Coordinator) on update process not agreeing with IANA sources On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 2:50 PM, John Hawkinson <jhawk(a)mit.edu> wrote: > In the absence of direction to the contrary, > could we please keep > discussion of Tobias Conradi off of the list? direction is here http://www.iana.org/time-zones "A higher volume discussion list used for discussing proposals for updates to the Database. Contributions to this list may be emailed to tz(a)iana.org." It doesn't mention "discussion of Tobias Conradi". -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Re: [tz] Bug - Statement by Paul Eggert (a TZ Coordinator) on update process not agreeing with IANA sources
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu> wrote: > On 05/25/2012 05:20 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote: >>> this sort of behavior is >>> > counterproductive. >> Counterproductive to what? > > Taunting and personal attacks > are counterproductive to the > primary purpose of this mailing list, which is maintaining > the tz code and data. To judge objectively if one person did do that more often than others, it would be needed to at first identify occurrences of such behavior. Furthermore it would be needed to have a complete list of what constitutes counterproductive behavior, since otherwise actions may be taken on counterproductive behavior that is to be found in one person, but not on counterproductive behavior of another. I for one would claim that asking a person that sends lots of reports of bugs to the mailing list which is mentioned on http://www.iana.org/time-zones as "A higher volume discussion list used for discussing proposals for updates to the Database. Contributions to this list may be emailed to tz(a)iana.org." to stop sending them to be counterproductive. It would be more productive to change the description on the website about what the mailing list is to be used for. > If this pattern continues, then I'm > afraid we'll have to part ways. You are free to leave the project. I would regret that some of your knowledge would leave too, since the documentation is in some points inconsistent, but probably it would be possible to sort that out. > We should not be wasting > our time on argumentation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentation_theory ... argumentation, is the interdisciplinary study of how conclusions can be reached through logical reasoning I am here to improve the IANA time zone database by logical reasoning. If that is wasting your time, why are you TZ Coordinator? Do you want to maintain the database without logical reasoning? I don't see that defined in Theory file or BCP 175. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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Bug - Statement by Paul Eggert (a TZ Coordinator) on update process not agreeing with IANA sources
by Tobias Conradi May 26, 2012

May 26, 2012

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 6:06 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu> wrote: > On 05/24/2012 03:46 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote: > You should I think I should nothing. I do what I want. > consider taking a step backwards > and refraining from sending email to the tz list > for a while, If you fix all bugs, I will stop emailing. Wasn't it a Paul Eggert who introduced the Idaho bug http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017897.html ? And now a Paul Eggert doesn't like bugs being reported by Tobias Conradi? >as this sort of behavior is > counterproductive. Counterproductive to what? Counterproductive to fixing bugs? http://www.iana.org/time-zones has the text: ------------------ Mailing Lists ... Submissions/Discussions A higher volume discussion list used for discussing proposals for updates to the Database. Contributions to this list may be emailed to tz(a)iana.org. ----------------- That's exactly what I do. If that's not wanted, the page text is wrong. But if one thinks the page text is defining what is wanted, then Paul Eggert may be wrong. At which end is the bug, Paul Eggert or IANA? The page also has the text: TZ Coordinator The IESG-designated TZ Coordinator is Paul Eggert. Would that be you? If so, then here is a part of your role description: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6557 TZ Coordinator: The person or people who maintain and manage release of the TZ Database. I don't see any release at ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/releases/ since 2012-04-13 "The IESG has approved Paul Eggert (eggert at cs.ucla.edu) as the new Time Zone coordinator." (Source: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017853.html ) ========================= Delivered-To: tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com Received: by 10.14.96.144 with SMTP id r16csp81028eef; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.221.74 with SMTP id qc10mr28159196pbc.31.1337918798479; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu> Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu (smtp.cs.ucla.edu. [131.179.128.62]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id hs4si4058777pbc.296.2012.05.24.21.06.37; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu designates 131.179.128.62 as permitted sender) client-ip=131.179.128.62; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu designates 131.179.128.62 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D7C39E800D for <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com>; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gPsEGneTXkIk for <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com>; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (pool-71-189-109-235.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [71.189.109.235]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2942E39E8007 for <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com>; Thu, 24 May 2012 21:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FBF054C.50108(a)cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 21:06:36 -0700 From: Paul Eggert <eggert(a)cs.ucla.edu> Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [tz] Sascha Wildner, asking about working privately and about patching, being on the wrong mailing list References: <CAAGevbVExSqCJPN4p0gBg-TsKSWRZ-pNpjW1zN8OUv-CS_M3HQ(a)mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAAGevbVExSqCJPN4p0gBg-TsKSWRZ-pNpjW1zN8OUv-CS_M3HQ(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/24/2012 03:46 PM, Tobias Conradi wrote: > Mirror mirror on the wall. You should consider taking a step backwards and refraining from sending email to the tz list for a while, as this sort of behavior is counterproductive. ========================================= -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/

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