September 2000 - tz - lists.iana.org

Re: (Cyprus), Nicosia is in Europe not Asia.
by Paul Eggert Sept. 28, 2000

Sept. 28, 2000

Antoine Leca <Antoine.Leca(a)renault.fr> writes: > Paul Eggert wrote: > > > I don't know of any current official dividing line between Europe and > > Asia [...] Geographically, Cyprus is > > clearly in Asia, and this has long been recognized. > > Sorry Paul: you are not consistent. Either you do not know of a dividing > line (as I do not, hence I do not comment on the issue). Or you do know > that "Cyprus is clearly in Asia", which in fact means that you know > of some line. What I was trying to say (perhaps infelicitously) is that the geographic dividing line is fuzzy in places (e.g. are the Mugadzhar mountains in Europe or in Asia?) but Cyprus is pretty clearly on the Asian side. Here's a quote that states things fairly accurately, I think: Geographically, Cyprus is considered to be a part of West Asia (this Mediterranean island is much closer to the mainland of Asia than to that of Europe). However, due to cultural, demographic, and historical reasons, it is often considered as a part of Europe. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~natinfo/asia3-2.htm#cyprus However, after some more research I agree that the point is disputable. In particular, the Encyclopedia Britannica flatly says that Cyprus is part of Europe. See <http://www.britannica.com/seo/e/europe/>. > The problem with Cyprus is that, at least as he said, Yiango was > unable to find Cyprus TZ because it cannot found it under > Europe/Nicosia. Yes, that's perhaps the best practical argument for putting it under Europe. I guess you have talked me into adding something like this: # Classically, Cyprus belongs to Asia; e.g. see Herodotus, Histories, I.72. # However, for various reasons many users expect to find it under Europe. Link Asia/Nicosia Europe/Nicosia

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Sao Paulo DST change this year?
by David Madeo Sept. 27, 2000

Sept. 27, 2000

Hi, Sorry to distract from the alternative names, but I have a report from a Sao Paulo colleague that they've changed the date for the transition again this year. According to him, As you may know we have the daylight savings for Sao Paulo/Brazil coming soon and as it happens every year the government has changed the dates again... It'll start on oct/8th and will end on February 18 both at 0:00. This doesn't seem to match up with this excerpt from 2000f/southamerica # Decree <a href="http://pcdsh01.on.br/DecHV99.gif">3,188</a> (1999-09-30) # adds SE, AL, PE, PR, RN, CE, PI, MA and RR. # These give only one year's rules. After that, the rules are guesses # and are quite possibly wrong, but are more likely than no DST at all. Rule Brazil 1999 max - Oct Sun>=1 0:00 1:00 S Rule Brazil 2000 max - Feb lastSun 0:00 0 - I can't believe I'm the first to report this. Did I miss an update? Is my colleague misinformed? Thanks, dmadeo

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Re: Alternative place names
by Paul Eggert Sept. 27, 2000

Sept. 27, 2000

"Gwillim Law" <gwil(a)mindspring.com> writes: > I hope we'll resist making frequent changes to the zone names. > Please remember that every change has a cost. In this case, there's > the labor of updating databases, resource files, source code, etc. Yes. For the two proposed changes Asia/Ashkhabad -> Asia/Ashgabat and Asia/Thimbu -> Asia/Thimphu, we'd definitely add entries to the "backward" file, so that any existing users could continue to use the old names. > Do not change established names unless they become ambiguous or shockingly > incorrect. That is a pretty conservative rule. I think I'm a bit more liberal, at least for names that are rarely used. I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone is currently using either of the two names in question as a TZ string. (Thimphu has 20,000 people and no stoplights. :-) The "backward" file let us survive the Great Renaming of 1993 (e.g. "US/Eastern" -> "America/New_York") with little problem, so I'm not to worried about renaming Thimbu. Also, a problem with this rule is that it's hard to define "shockingly incorrect" without going into politics. For example, if we had established the tz database in 1940 and had needed an entry for Asia/Peiping, would that name be "shockingly incorrect" by now? The name "Peiping" implies that Beijing is not the capital of China, and that would probably shock most Chinese; but it wouldn't shock most English-speakers because they don't have a feel for the Chinese etymology. This is an extreme case, but I hope you see what I mean. How about the following more liberal rules instead? Do not change established names if they only marginally violate the above rules. For example, don't change the existing name `Rome' to `Milan' merely because Milan's population has grown to be somewhat greater than Rome's. If a name is changed, put its old spelling in the `backward' file.

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Alternative place names
by Oscar van Vlijmen Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

To the discussion about possible alternative zone names in the tz-data files: I wrote: > If one doesn't like those names as zone names, just add them as a comment. And Paul Eggert replied: >> That has already been done in the latest tz sources. Sorry, I missed this one! It's good that this happened, because the alternative names are a valuable feature of the tz data, worth mentioning. About the Greenland names: >From the postal codes Greenland page (http://www.dpc.dk/Guide/PostalCodes.html) "3970 Pituffik (Dundas, Thule Air Base)" "3971 Qaanaaq (Thule)" See also: http://www.greenland-guide.dk/gt/maps/default.htm Paul Eggert wrote: > ... But this is another hint that perhaps we should > leave the tz Zone names alone, at least for now. In conclusion for the Greenland case I would like to suggest: Keep the current zone names because Thule and the other Danish names are globally more common, keep the commented Inuit names, but change Pituffik to Qaanaaq. However small Qaanaaq is, it refers to Thule; Pituffik refers to the air base. There are several other small inconsistencies in the zone names and comments of the tz data files. I took a look at the Asia file, with the latest Times atlas, the huge millennium edition, in front of me: * Bhutan: the name of the capital is Thimphu, not Thimbu. It is possible that Thimphu (not an f but an aspirated p) is a closer transliteration of the Dzongkha prononciation than the old British transliteration Thimbu. * Cambodia: Phnom Penh says the tz data, Phnum Penh is a more modern transliteration. * China: Chungking: seems to me an old and wrong French transliteration of Chongqing; the q is not a k-sound, but a ts-sound. * Cyprus: Nicosia. Isn't this called Lefkosia at the moment? * Kazakhstan: Aqtau: could be a pre-1940 transliteration; since the Cyrillic script was reused, the correct transliteration, according to the Times atlas, is Aktau. Where on earth is Aqtobe? TZ data says it's in the Aktyubinsk time zone. Since Aktyubinsk is on the map (both as an oblast' name and as the capital of that county), why not change Aqtobe to Aktyubinsk. * Kirgizstan: should be Kyrgyzstan. * Laos: Vientiane. Put in a comment the better transliteration of Lao name: Viangchan. * Qatar: Al Dawhah: it's Ad Dawhah or the more Latin alternative Doha. * Bahrain: no need for '-' in Al-Manamah, so: Al Manamah. * Syria: Damascus; comment: Dimashq. * Thailand: no, I won't suggest a comment for the (abbreviated) formal name Krung Thep; just Bangkok. If you really like the long one, here it comes: Krungthep Mahanakhon Amorn Rattanakosin Mahintara Yudthaya Mahadilok Pohp Noparat Rajathanee Bureerom Udomrajniwes Mahasatarn Amorn Pimarn Avaltarnsatit Sakatattiya Visanukram Prasit (ref.: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Flats/1233/bkk.htm) * Turkmenistan has since 1991 the Latin alphabet instead of the Cyrillic. I'm not sure if it's Ashkhabad or Ashgabat at the moment. I think the latter. * Vietnam: tzdata says: Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh. How nice, but isn't the capital Ha Noi? The fact that probably more Americans actually have been in Saigon should not play any role ;) So, there is still a bit of work to do if one would like to dot some i's. Oscar van Vlijmen 2000-09-26

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Re: Alternative place names
by Paul Eggert Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

Vadim Vygonets <vadik(a)cs.huji.ac.il> writes: > I just asked a Chinese guy, who says that Chongqing is the > official transliteration used in China. So maybe we should go > with the Chinese government. That is an argument for switching, all other things being equal. But I'm not convinced that we should switch entirely to Pinyin. For example, should we change Asia/Harbin to Asia/Haerbin (or Asia/Haerbin_Shi -- it's not clear to me which is right)? The word "Harbin" isn't derived from Chinese, which makes matters even more interesting. In English, "Harbin" is by far the dominant form -- 50 times more common, according to Altavista -- so I'm not inclined to switch it. For Asia/Hong_Kong and Asia/Macao, it's even clearer to me that we shouldn't switch to Pinyin. We have this problem with Asia/Urumqi and Asia/Kashgar too; in both cases I chose the form that I found to be more popular in English at the time (in the first case Pinyin, in the second case conventional). Perhaps the worst example of this problem is Mongolia. Places like Hovd and Choybalsan seem to have dozens of spellings each. With cases like this we have to just close our eyes and pick a name, to some extent. > 'i' and 'y' are different sounds, at least in Russian. Kirgizia > and Kirgizstan are Russian names, Kyrgyzstan is Kyrgyzian > (Kirgizian?). Hmm, also Altavista says that "Kyrgyzstan" is much more popular. So let's prefer "Kyrgyzstan" in the comment and in iso3166.tab. The CIA prefers "Kyrgyzstan" as well, and they seem to be relatively up-to-date in these matters. (_The Economist_ prefers "Kirgizstan", which is where I got the spelling originally.) > > Ho Chi Minh City aka Saigon is far more populous than Hanoi, so that's > > why we use it. (Just as we use Los Angeles and not Sacramento. :-) > > However, Asia/Jerusalem and not Asia/Tel_Aviv is the official > time zone for Israel. It used to be Asia/Tel_Aviv, but someone reported that Jerusalem's population is now greater than Tel Aviv's, at least by some measures. Jerusalem is much better-known, so that was enough to get us to switch. If Jerusalem becomes a divided city with different daylight-saving rules, then we'll need to revisit this issue.

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Re: Alternative place names
by Paul Eggert Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

Oscar van Vlijmen <o.van.vlijmen(a)tip.nl> writes: > Keep the current zone names because Thule and the other Danish names are > globally more common, keep the commented Inuit names, but change Pituffik to > Qaanaaq. However small Qaanaaq is, it refers to Thule; Pituffik refers to > the air base. The "Thule" entry refers to the airbase, not the town. Until recently, Thule was the only time zone region whose most populous location was an airbase. Even now the populations of the town and the airbase are neck and neck, so I'd leave it alone for now. However, I'll append "air base" to the comment, to make it clearer. > * Bhutan: the name of the capital is Thimphu, not Thimbu. Good point. By Altavista's count, "Thimphu" is now far more popular than "Thimbu" in English. I'll change this in my next proposed patch. > * Cambodia: Phnom Penh says the tz data, Phnum Penh is a more modern > transliteration. Altavista says that "Phnom Penh" is still more popular in English, by a wide, wide margin. So let's stick with it. (Besides, we can't put the accent over the "e" in a Posix name. :-) > * China: Chungking: seems to me an old and wrong French transliteration of > Chongqing; the q is not a k-sound, but a ts-sound. Chungking is the traditional English name; e.g. see <http://www.sinistra.net/els/sup/transcript.html>, which gives the following examples, among others: (Postal) (Pinyin) Canton Guangzhou Chungking Chongqing Hong Kong Xianggang Macao Aomen Peking Beijing Szechuan Sichuan Of these examples, I think "Beijing" is clearly more popular than "Peking" in English these days. At the other extreme is "Xianggang", which few English-speakers have ever heard of. "Chungking" is somewhere in the middle -- still more popular than the Pinyin name in movie titles (e.g. Chungking Express [1994], a movie made in Hong Kong) but less popular in, say, English-language travel web sites produced in the PRC. For now I'm slightly inclined to leave it as "Chungking" for a little while longer, but put "Chongqing" in as a comment. Similarly for the other Postal names. > * Cyprus: Nicosia. Isn't this called Lefkosia at the moment? That's news to me. I often see English-language news dispatches with a Nicosia dateline. Perhaps it depends on whether you're looking at the city from a European or an Asian viewpoint? I can just see it now: Europe/Nicosia as an alias for Asia/Lefkosia. (No, no, forget that I mentioned it. :-) > * Kazakhstan: Aqtau: could be a pre-1940 transliteration; since the Cyrillic > script was reused, the correct transliteration, according to the Times > atlas, is Aktau. The CIA spells it "Aqtau". The Times of Central Asia (the only online English-language newspaper in the area that I could find) also spells it "Aqtau"; see <http://www.times.kg/web-guide/kazakhstan/>. The Lonely Planet guide also calls it "Aqtau" (and I can't resist repeating its remark that the town is "for the perverse and JG Ballard lovers only"). But a lot of Russian-derived sources do indeed spell it "Aktau", and I think the oil companies tend to follow the Russians. Currently "Aktau" is present as a comment; I'm inclined to leave it that way for now. > Where on earth is Aqtobe? TZ data says it's in the > Aktyubinsk time zone. Since Aktyubinsk is on the map (both as an oblast' > name and as the capital of that county), why not change Aqtobe to > Aktyubinsk. Aktyubinsk is the old (Russian) name, and Aqtobe is the new (Kazakh) one. Google says "Aqtobe" is more popular these days (not surprising, as "Aktyubinsk" is a pain to spell :-). > * Kirgizstan: should be Kyrgyzstan. The official name indeed has "y" but I think "i" is quite popular in English. It's just a comment, so it doesn't matter all that much. I'll include both spellings in the comment. > * Laos: Vientiane. Put in a comment the better transliteration of Lao name: > Viangchan. > * Qatar: Al Dawhah: it's Ad Dawhah or the more Latin alternative Doha. > * Bahrain: no need for '-' in Al-Manamah, so: Al Manamah. > * Syria: Damascus; comment: Dimashq. Thanks; I'll add/fix these comments. > * Turkmenistan has since 1991 the Latin alphabet instead of the Cyrillic. > I'm not sure if it's Ashkhabad or Ashgabat at the moment. Altavista says that Ashgabat is much more common, and the CIA uses Ashgabat. This looks like we should change the name too. > * Vietnam: tzdata says: Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh. How > nice, but isn't the capital Ha Noi? The fact that probably more Americans > actually have been in Saigon should not play any role ;) Ho Chi Minh City aka Saigon is far more populous than Hanoi, so that's why we use it. (Just as we use Los Angeles and not Sacramento. :-)

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Defense for Ho Chi Minh
by Jesper Nørgaard Sept. 26, 2000

Sept. 26, 2000

Oscar van Vlijmen wrote: ======================= * Vietnam: tzdata says: Saigon's official name is Thanh-Pho Ho Chi Minh. How nice, but isn't the capital Ha Noi? The fact that probably more Americans actually have been in Saigon should not play any role ;) ======================= I believe that tz data has an (unstated?) policy of defining the default city of a country not necessarily to be the capital, but the city with the highest number of inhabitants, as in the concrete example where Ho Chi Minh city has around 3 million inhabitants, whereas the capital Hanoi (or Ha Noi) has only 1 million inhabitants. That probably also explains why there has been more Americans in Saigon ... Regards, Jesper Nørgaard Email: jnorgard(a)Prodigy.Net.mx Programador/Analista CIMMYT - Centro Internacional de Mejoramiento de Maíz y Trigo Dirección: CIMMYT, Lisboa 27, 06600 Mexico, D.F. Tel.: +52 (5) 58-04-20-04 ext. 1374 Fax: +52 (5) 58-04-75-58 Tel. Casa: 53-10-05-95 ó 53-10-97-78 CIMMYT home page: http://cimmyt.cgiar.org Check out my Time Zone Converter: http://timezone50.homepage.com

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Peace Time
by Olson, Arthur David (NCI) Sept. 25, 2000

Sept. 25, 2000

The information provided by Garrett Wollman suggests the change below. Given the location of the international date line, the document was signed when it was 1945-09-01 in the United States. --ado *** 7.52/northamerica Mon Sep 25 16:29:52 2000 --- 7.53/northamerica Mon Sep 25 16:29:52 2000 *************** *** 1,4 **** ! # @(#)northamerica 7.52 # also includes Central America and the Caribbean # This data is by no means authoritative; if you think you know better, --- 1,4 ---- ! # @(#)northamerica 7.53 # also includes Central America and the Caribbean # This data is by no means authoritative; if you think you know better, *************** *** 58,67 **** --- 58,89 ---- # Before the Uniform Time Act of 1966 took effect in 1967, observance of # Daylight Saving Time in the US was by local option, except during wartime. + # From Arthur David Olson (2000-09-25): + # After the end of World War II, "Peace" replaced "War" in the time zone names + # used on at least some radio broadcasts. We'll assume this kicked in on the + # signing on 1945-09-02 of the document ending the war. According to + # <a href="http://spclevents.com/ships/missouri/bb63_pod.html"> + # http://spclevents.com/ships/missouri/bb63_pod.html + # </a> + # sunrise was 05:14 and sunset was 18:07; according to + # <a href="http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/japansur/js-8g.htm" > + # http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/japansur/js-8g.htm + # </a> + # "All signatures were in place by 9:22." According to the United States + # Naval Observatory's Astronomical Aplications Department's Sunrise and Sunset + # Calculator, + # <a href="http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA"> + # http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA + # </a> + # sunrise at 35o42'N, 139o46'E on 1945-09-02 was at 05:13 and sunset was at + # 18:08; these values are close enough to 05:14 and 18:07 to let us know that + # the Missouri was operating on Tokyo time. + # Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER/S Rule US 1918 1919 - Mar lastSun 2:00 1:00 W # War Rule US 1918 1919 - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S Rule US 1942 only - Feb 9 2:00 1:00 W # War + Rule US 1945 only - Sep 2 0:22u 1:00 P # Peace Rule US 1945 only - Sep 30 2:00 0 S Rule US 1967 max - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S Rule US 1967 1973 - Apr lastSun 2:00 1:00 D

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Eastern Peace Time
by Olson, Arthur David (NCI) Sept. 25, 2000

Sept. 25, 2000

Last night I heard part of a rebroadcast of a 1945 Arch Oboler radio drama. In the introduction, Oboler spoke of "Eastern Peace Time." An AltaVista search turned up http://rowayton.org/rhs/hstaug45.html by way of confirmation. The "northamerica" time zone file already has information about Eastern War Time during World War II... Rule US 1942 only - Feb 9 2:00 1:00 W # War Rule US 1945 only - Sep 30 2:00 0 S ...and presumably what's needed is a line between these two such as... Rule US 1945 only - Sep 2 h:mmu 1:00 P # Peace ...where h:mm is the time that the document ending the war was signed. And so, two questions: 1. What are the correct values for h and mm above? 2. Was that indeed the instant when the switch from War Time to Peace Time occurred? Thanks in advance for any light that folks can shed! --ado

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