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CLDR UN/LOCODE usage
by Tobias Conradi April 21, 2013

April 21, 2013

Was: Re: [tz] Proposal to change Macquarie Island to be Australian territory A reply to :http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2013-April/019135.html First LOCODE message in the thread was at http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2013-April/019114.html ------------ On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Mark Davis ☕ <mark(a)macchiato.com> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Tobias Conradi > <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Mark Davis ☕ <mark(a)macchiato.com> wrote: >> >> Variable length and inconsistent country code usage: >> > >> > This is a misunderstanding. >> Of the UN LOCODE system, on the side of CLDR designers. >> >> > CLDR is specified to use 5 letter UN LOCODEs where they exist. Where >> > they do >> > not exist, it is specified to use a non-5-letter code, precisely so that >> > they do not overlap with future UN LOCODEs. >> That could have been easily achieved with 5-letter codes, as has been >> shown at: >> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017974.html and >> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017980.html >> >> If overlap prevention the goal, then there was misunderstanding of the >> UN LOCODE system on the side of CLDR. > > > The only way that there would be a problem for CLDR is if the UN LOCODEs > could be other than 5 alphanumerics. It may be true that there is no /problem for CLDR/ - but the claim was that CLDR has "Variable length and inconsistent country code usage" > > According to > http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/cefact/locode/unlocode_manual.pdf, the UN > LOCODE would be 5 letters and possibly numbers (in positions 3-5). As long > as any additional CLDR identifiers did not match that, there wouldn't be an > overlap. > > So I don't understand your contention. Are you saying that UN LOCODEs, can > in fact consist of other than 5 alphanumerics? I don't say so, and AFAICS never said so. >> > When the codes are not 5 >> > letters, the first two letters have no meaning. >> Except where they have. And for some from the US, even the first 4 >> have a meaning: >> debsngn: de = Germany >> gldkshvn: gl = Greenland >> mxstis: mx = Mexico >> rukhndg: ru = Russia >> ruunera: ru = Russia >> usinvev: us = US (usin = Indiana) >> usnavajo: us = US >> usndcnt: us = US (usnd = North Dakota) >> usndnsl: us = US (usnd = North Dakota) > > > I should have said: When the codes are not 5 alphanumerics, the first two > letters do not *necessarily* denote a country code. That was my starting claim: "inconsistent country code usage" >> > The codes are stablized, meaning that they will not change no matter >> > what >> > changes happen in the base codes. So if Hawaii leaves the US and joins >> > Canada as a new province, "ushnl" would not change in CLDR even if the >> > UN >> > LOCODE changes to "cahnl" or something else. >> And combining this with "When the codes are not 5 letters, the first >> two letters have no meaning.", assuming that, if they have 5 letters >> they /may/ have a meaning, leads to the fact that the meaning in CLDR >> would be different from the meaning in the UN LOCODE system. > > > I don't understand what you are saying: that would only be an issue if there > were overlaps. What don't you understand in : "the meaning in CLDR would be different from the meaning in the UN LOCODE system"? The meaning of the first two letters in the UN/LOCODE system, except for private range codes, is to show the current valid ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 country code for the country the location identified by the UN/LOCODE is located in. >> A statement on why a country relation was not seen suitable for time >> zone identifiers can be found at: >> ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/code/Theory >> "Be robust in the presence of political changes." > > > That's fine for TZ codes. As far as CLDR is concerned, however, the main > goal is to have an unambiguous, stable ID that is from 3-8 ASCII > alphanumerics long and maps to TZ codes. The 3-8 ASCII limitation is imposed > by BCP47, so we could not use the TZ codes unmodified. We could have chosen > to simply number them, but decided that the UN LOCODEs would be a bit > simpler to deal with. A "3-8 ASCII limitation [...] imposed by BCP47" would have allowed for fixed length 5-digit codes. As emailed here: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2013-April/019117.html "It is common for identifiers created by ISO to have fixed length, e.g. ISWC, ISSN, ISMN, ISRC, ISBN, ISNI, ISAN, ISO country codes, ISO language codes." But CLDR for an unstated reason did choose variable length. If one lists them in a table, the column containing them is unnecessarily wider. If one puts them as labels on a map, they are harder to fit. In both cases, the non-5-character codes draw extra attention by the reader to them. Maybe all new assignments can be restricted to 5-character codes? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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Re: [tz] Proposal to use Asia/Tel_Aviv for Israel - Jerusalem is not internationally recognized as part of Israel
by SM April 20, 2013

April 20, 2013

At 06:21 20-04-2013, Tobias Conradi wrote: >== Problem == >Jerusalem is internationally not recognized as part of Israel. Using >Jerusalem as reference location for Israel in the IANA time zone >database may thus violate UN resolutions. If I recall correctly the argument was to use population size. Regards, -sm

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tzcode2013c and tzdata2013c available
by Paul Eggert April 20, 2013

April 20, 2013

The 2013c release of the tz code and data is available. It reflects the following changes circulated on the tz mailing list: Changes affecting current and future time stamps: Palestine observed DST starting March 29, 2013. (Thanks to Steffen Thorsen.) From 2013 on, Gaza and Hebron both observe DST, with the predicted rules being the last Thursday in March at 24:00 to the first Friday on or after September 21 at 01:00. Assume that the recent change to Paraguay's DST rules is permanent, by moving the end of DST to the 4th Sunday in March every year. (Thanks to Carlos Raúl Perasso.) Changes affecting past time stamps: Fix some historical data for Palestine to agree with that of timeanddate.com, as follows: The spring 2008 change in Gaza and Hebron was on 00:00 Mar 28, not 00:00 Apr 1. The fall 2009 change in Gaza and Hebron on Sep 4 was at 01:00, not 02:00. The spring 2010 change in Hebron was 00:00 Mar 26, not 00:01 Mar 27. The spring 2011 change in Gaza was 00:01 Apr 1, not 12:01 Apr 2. The spring 2011 change in Hebron on Apr 1 was at 00:01, not 12:01. The fall 2011 change in Hebron on Sep 30 was at 00:00, not 03:00. Fix times of habitation for Macquarie to agree with the Tasmania Parks & Wildlife Service history, which indicates that permanent habitation was 1899-1919 and 1948 on. Changing affecting metadata only: Macquarie Island is politically part of Australia, not Antarctica. (Thanks to Tobias Conradi.) Sort Macquarie more-consistently with other parts of Australia. (Thanks to Tim Parenti.) Here are links to the release files: http://www.iana.org/time-zones/repository/releases/tzcode2013c.tar.gz http://www.iana.org/time-zones/repository/releases/tzdata2013c.tar.gz ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/releases/tzcode2013c.tar.gz ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/releases/tzdata2013c.tar.gz Each release file has a GPG signature, which can be retrieved by appending ".asc" to the above URLs. Copies of these signatures are appended to this message. As usual, links to the latest release files are here: http://www.iana.org/time-zones/repository/tzcode-latest.tar.gz http://www.iana.org/time-zones/repository/tzdata-latest.tar.gz ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/tzcode-latest.tar.gz ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/tzdata-latest.tar.gz This release corresponds to commit f599ad15ce247473d28c179ff4d836dfcdbd0ca5 dated 2013-04-19 in the unofficial github repository at <https://github.com/eggert/tz>. Here are the GPG checksums for the release files: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAABAgAGBQJRcdDFAAoJEO2X6Q5iqn409ZYP/jNMuGfRb/3qwqDeUaiMUKrS yBWCYkME/oYLWSHdThGNKCRBhS8Hyr1qgOCm5YfYRTP2ZRKKOIAYPEWFUm5BvRYs r1nVmJVTea6/6jJq3yx5rAunb2C1ZRnyvHBBONRYEpAOm2EMiCMeDAXtXIpwqP7e VaAX5TFAKnxn6WJFZduU6TkCr1oWcNoFu7mZN0jy/9K1K8SLT95TLNtGAI9LtETk 3Ra9omCGy9hn/cV+PQcRa1P62uVYtyQat9Vx+nsYWluAbEofcK2wsdcIeqPlBY4X EdN66JmTrfJTrkZN425/0WIFxhr6X/nrS9LuQidzMy1PrU+0dvIWFxyUx0vE5bL5 p4NB41nu/jGs8H5ziEzDgLzMnKrMv+FzvWtcP9mYGVEzokUujxIARdUUiXoy/o4h xU111amQuDb/bmQJzdef1/SrTFqKJNwRikamDGdV+XmOJUKg1I/xP7U18c8J3qJd bgahir1f49jcglmN/W+/ViKVFZiJE/XeMSG3dGVcf3Ji9J1CHIlNjrTeTAHeilGI B+6gl/KPi6xrP8MtWs6jBVrGwzOL1zS7o+AFigWSEVU7a3UcqhGim18GXS4VjjTy lck/baoHF85mS9pig0lMxYLFa0+g/x5X7+nFAC8b6fLT/zmxwYXfuEOp35LixVC/ o330alvZudQDmy0vvwVY =h5yf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAABAgAGBQJRcdDFAAoJEO2X6Q5iqn40p78P/371Lir9rfTXas0Z6lvp3Lp9 KRv7+yzpNMh1toxsUmkeswvdRxn7v+r+l7F5G0oLlK7CN88nW8uUua+R/YNvMcRG v4UOxaIhCRrM2PG/JGiXF/6kjHP9m0l3206HJzxnhW1atl8DCVEz93jyUbVXtf20 IYlDv7DOqLj9GW5VoK8KlExnymUKgtGBuLlyROoKomGlWt851d05mrAMLTeVQ/Nh RasevczuqFhpGgB444/mJZ4KOTCElYyl9sau9qXXr5MfA5MmtOKaeg8O2r3PZl2x 0oto97okGITNu5hrhJ1dYk7WjM27HfDUHcIvGdsmXmdebA703O5sk4M2R3F/dYNL 79N+sFOfs8qBp4Knclv8eMVoptKJ/ARLkkdduU2ZE/I4oai4YaIYNLi+r9NFQWdU ihVsYdcPTvRAK/6+RaINPwS6JhHsbKWBqyFS+80q268WyC/gfPPH61/ZrJ+fiRiT FeBD1LYs+n1LO9gvtUzsVpJipc07OMWUR8RTFuhkBXMhRuOKk0ClkulV50bMDll9 M27pr4DlRohiCbCUVLIUkOYJNUfcLGGCfN33EWQf2h9E+9DEgsKcnYwv7y3384vQ lj0xHcGLwYj9xBnVQZwiVBIkeblzToWJ4pYSu7Lv0bUd/CE3paBTN1vSh8RmeMQc JV78TcXpv14qn9s04/n6 =ID32 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Proposal to change Antarctica/Macquarie to Pacific/Macquarie
by Tobias Conradi April 20, 2013

April 20, 2013

Some repition of former emails and one use case/practical implication. Correctness: 1) Macquarie is outside the territory covered by The Antarctic Treaty 1959-12-01 http://www.ats.aq/documents/ats/treaty_original.pdf "The provisions of the present Treaty shall apply to the area south of 60° South Latitude" 2) Macquarie is the only location to have the Area Antarctic and be not south of 60° South Latitude Fix: 3) The distance from Macquarie to Australian mainland (~2000 km) is larger than from Madagascar to Africa. Madagascar is placed in the surrounding ocean under Indian/ , so Macquarie can be placed in the surrounding ocean. 4) TZ identifiers have been changed if localities have been renamed. That is, the identifiers have been adapted to new real world situation. Here, the adaption would be a correction in the data, as is the change for Macquarie from ISO country AQ to AU. It has been wrong from the beginning. If one wants to freeze the identifiers, then please not for actual errors, especially not before a freeze is officially announced and data be checked. The location part of the tzid is not necessarily matching anything in the real world, since there is the 14 character limit and some limits in the choice of characters. But the area part normally matches the real world name of the area. Problem: 5) I just opened tz_world_mp in QGis and when opening the Attribute Table and sorting by TZID Macquarie is listed out of place. This will happen in any environment that does sorting by TZID. Here it is special, since geographic Antarctica is not included in tz_world_mp leading to only one TZID under Antarctica/.... In map projections Antarctica often gets a special treatment. It may also be excluded as in * tz_world_mp (no time zones for Antarctica) * http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm In programming a simple string matching on the IDs could remove time zones located in geographic Antarctica, if Macquarie would be moved out of Antarctica/.... So this has an effect on programming work. Summary: Fixing it now will avoid many discussions or annoyances caused by Macquarie being placed in an, as far as general definitions of Antarctica are concerned wrong area. It will help programmers and other people that work with the data. This is a very special case of tzid change. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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tzcode for windows?
by random832＠fastmail.us April 19, 2013

April 19, 2013

It came up as an aside in the earlier discussion about moving to uintmax_t, but I was wondering - is there any interest in a port to windows? I've got most of the way to a successful zic port (other tools don't work so well yet - everything compiles, but there are subtle incompatibilities that cause problems for the library functions) -- Random832

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Not sure how to add to thread...
by Marvel, Jim (CPCOE) April 19, 2013

April 19, 2013

Hi, I posted before about Asia/Khandyga and Asia/Ust-Nera, wondering if they will show up in the efele tz_database with their own Tzid Can't find them as of October 8th file. Please let me know which polygons to be assigned to each of these Tzid. Thanks Jim Marvel Software Engineer II Honeywell ESEA/CMS/CP/CoE 8323 Lindbergh Court Sarasota FL 34243 Phone - 941.360.6209 (alt: 941.360.6213) Fax - 941.355.9241 Jim.Marvel(a)Honeywell.com<mailto:nancy.ramm@honeywell.com>

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Re: [tz] EST/EDT vs AEST/AEDT in AQ [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
by Timothy Arceri April 18, 2013

April 18, 2013

>From: tobias.conradi(a)gmail.com [mailto:tobias.conradi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Conradi > >>> This is a vote to use AEST/AEDT, or switch completely to Internationalized time point unique abbreviations. >> >> I have been very clear since my very first email that may main concern is with the daylight savings abbreviations. >>Again switching completely to Internationalized time point unique abbreviations is outside the scope of the tz database. >Again? Where did you say it is outside the scope of the tz database before? >Where is the scope defined to have EDT? Going for "out of scope" >without citing policy looks like trying to conceal that fact that it is only outside your scope. For the scope of changes that can be made to the tz database please read: http://www.iana.org/go/rfc6557 No one is trying to conceal anything I'm simply following the procedures outlined in that document. > You seem to not care about anything outside Australia and deteriorating the database by introducing new meanings of D is not problem for you. I can accuse you of trying to introduce a new meaning to Australians. Please show me where it says that we must use the abbreviations used elsewhere in the database. Your own table shows that the abbreviations letters can mean different things. AGAIN you are trying to enforce unique and standardised abbreviations, as I have said this would be great if the world as a whole decided to use such standards but there is no such thing currently, if I'm wrong please enlighten me. Again: "Changes to existing entries SHALL reflect the consensus on the ground in the region covered by that entry." >> We are simply trying to get the daylight savings abbreviations changed >> to what is *actually* used in Australia. >Macquarie Island in the IANA time zone database is AQ and not Australia. Macquarie island is part of Australia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island Timothy Arceri

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Request to apply patch for Russian Siberia and create Asia/Tomsk Asia/Barnaul
by Tobias Conradi April 18, 2013

April 18, 2013

Patch was mailed 2012-05-05 http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017696.html -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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[PATCH0/1] Propose new zone for Crozet Islands
by Antoine Leca April 18, 2013

April 18, 2013

Hi Paul, I also have a patch submitted some time ago which seems to have been forgotten. I reworked it to match git workflow. For easier work, I have also put it as a new branch on my github repository: https://github.com/antoineL/tz/commits/crozet About the content from the former discussion <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017804.html> that I scrapped from the commit message, there were a reference to an official reference (in French) that can be read at the bottom of page 30 of <http://www.taaf.fr/IMG/pdf/guidehivernant2011.pdf< (taaf.fr is the official site of the territory), which spells the rules using the old GMT+4 moniker, and as a reference to the Europe/Paris rules. Since that URL is likely to change (!) you might want to refer to http://www.taaf.fr instead; or just drop it completely, which was my option. Antoine

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Re: [tz] EST/EDT vs AEST/AEDT in AQ [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
by Tobias Conradi April 18, 2013

April 18, 2013

On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Garrett Wollman <wollman(a)csail.mit.edu> wrote: > <<On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:22:47 +0200, Tobias Conradi <mail.2012(a)tobiasconradi.com> said: > >>> It is entirely unimportant to "avoid ambiguity". >> How did you come to this conclusion? > > By watching you make an ass of yourself. How is that relevant for the IANA time zone database? -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com

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