FW: Updated Australian time zone names/strings
David Begley is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately. --ado -----Original Message----- From: David J N Begley [mailto:d.begley@uws.edu.au] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:40 AM To: Time Zone Database Subject: Updated Australian time zone names/strings To whom it may concern... Summary: I'd like to request the "EST/EST" time zone strings for Australian eastern standard and summer/daylight-savings time be changed to "AEST/AEDT", given that "EST/EST": - clashes with an existing U.S. time zone; - gives no indication of the difference between standard/d'light savings; - is unnecessarily confusing; - is incorrectly quoted from the time zone database as authoritative; and, - does not necessarily gel with "common practice" in Australia. Whilst it is arguable exactly what string/abbreviation should be used in the absence of formal standards, I present "common usage" examples below and argue that at the very least, the abbreviations for standard and daylight savings time should be *different*. Detail: Checking the tzdata2001a archive (and various UNIX systems), Australian eastern time zones (particularly "Australia/Sydney") use the time zone string "EST" for both standard and summer/daylight-savings time. Notionally, this is just a visual issue that doesn't really bring the IT industry to its knees if it's wrong since most decent systems work directly on the UTC offset instead. However, some systems use the time zone database as an "expert reference" from which to extrapolate incorrect information - it is this that triggered my submission to you. For example, the time zone database includes the following comment: # From John Mackin (1991-03-06): # We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as `daylight' time. # It is called `summer' time. Now by a happy coincidence, `summer' # and `standard' happen to start with the same letter; hence, the # abbreviation does _not_ change... I can't speak for Mr Mackin's direct experience, but I can most certainly contest the assertion that, "We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as `daylight' time" - certainly everyone I know (and myself, of course) have always used the term "daylight savings" rather than "summer time". I've used UNIX systems for years so to a certain degree I'm used to this "error" in the time zone database; however, now that people are using the database as an authoritative resource (despite the comments in the file to the contrary), I thought it only fair to request a correction (in the hope that those relying on the database will in turn correct their information). Mr Mackin continues: # The legislation does not actually define abbreviations, at least # in this State, but the abbreviation is just commonly taken to be the # initials of the phrase, and the legislation here uniformly uses # the phrase `summer time' and does not use the phrase `daylight # time'. Unfortunately Mr Mackin does not indicate to what State he refers, but in *this* State (New South Wales - NSW), the relevant legislation clearly uses both terms (summer time and daylight savings) interchangeably; for reference, see the Standard Time Act 1987 (NSW), which *predates* Mr Mackin's comment: "New South Wales Consolidated Acts - STANDARD TIME ACT 1987" http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/sta1987137/ Whilst the Act clearly defines "standard time" and "summer time", it also makes specific mention of "daylight saving": - the long title of the legislation is: "An Act relating to standard time and daylight saving in New South Wales." - part 3 of the Act, talking about summer time, is in fact entitled: "PART 3 - DAYLIGHT SAVING" For further evidence of the use of the term "daylight saving", see: "Time in New South Wales" (NSW Attorney General's Department) http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/crd.nsf/pages/time1 "Daylight Saving in New South Wales" (NSW Department of Public Works and Services) http://dir.gis.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/genobject/document/other/daylightsaving/ti gGmZITWr0 "When does daylight savings start in Australia?" (National Standards Commission) http://www.nsc.gov.au/PAGES/Info/info_faq.html#Daylight Savings "Daylight Saving" (National Standards Commission) http://www.nsc.gov.au/PDF_WORD/Info/IL27.pdf Clearly, the assertion that Australia always uses the term "summer time" instead of "daylight time" or "daylight savings" (and therefore, the time zone abbreviations must be the same) is *incorrect*. The confusion arises because in Australia it is the States (not the Federal/national government) that legislate time changes during the summer months; whilst technically it is a federal responsibility under the constitution (as a measure related to commerce), the parliament has never really been able to pass legislation on the matter due to the fear that the States would see this as removing some of their legislative powers (see Hansard, Commonwealth House of Representatives, 1991). Subsequently, there is no standard name for time zones or summer clock shifts just "common use" (for various definitions of "common") that sometimes vary from State to State. In the media you will experience all manner of phrases used such as "Eastern Time", "Summer Time", "Sydney Time" and numerous other variants; for example, C&W Optus (a large telco) uses abbreviations such as "AEDST" when referring to Australian eastern daylight savings time. I suspect, apart from Mr Mackin's comments above, that the local use of the phrase "Eastern Standard Time" (which is clearly local in context) is what has led to the use of the ambiguous "EST" in the time zone database. More recently, however, the media is recognising the global context (rather than local) and starting to prefix time zone references with "Australian" (more on this below). As noted above, this confusing lack of standards, local phrases and personal experiences have found their way into the time zone database, into nearly every UNIX system (well...) and has now created even more confusion, especially as some people start to quote the time zone database as authoritative. For example: "Australian time zones and their naming variants account for fully one quarter of all time zones in the Postgres time zone lookup table." http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/7.0/user/datetime-appendix.htm (Caused by wierd variants - many of which I must admit to never having seen in use - to the ambiguous "EST". Also note that they recognise "AEST".) More of a concern, is this: "4.5. The timezone string for Sydney/Australia is wrong since even when daylight saving time is in effect the timezone string is EST. "{UD} The problem for some timezones is that the local authorities decided to use the term 'summer time' instead of 'daylight saving time'. In this case the abbreviation character `S' is the same as the standard one. So, for Sydney we have Eastern Standard Time = EST Eastern Summer Time = EST Great! To get this bug fixed convince the authorities to change the laws and regulations of the country this effects. glibc behaves correctly." http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/FAQ.html This is clearly based on Mr Mackin's comment in the time zone database, and as I have demonstrated is wrong (in terms of the legislation and government use). Unfortunately, despite the evidence, the glibc authors simply point to the time zone database as authoritative and allow this error to continue. glibc is *not* behaving correctly, nor is the time zone database (but to correct glibc I need to get the time zone database updated). So.. by this time I hope I've demonstrated that it *is* legitimate (and correct) to use a different abbreviation for daylight savings/summer time; all that remains is to demonstrate why I've chosen "AEST" and "AEDT" to replace "EST" for standard and daylight savings time respectively. Well, ignoring my own use of these abbreviations, some "common use" includes: - Australian Broadcasting Corporation <http://www.abc.net.au/news/> - Browse the ABC News site and see the instances of "AEST" and "AEDT" (even "ACST" and "AWST" for central and western standard time) in reference to eastern standard or eastern summer time depending on whether that particular State observes daylight savings or not. - In particular, see the "Posted" timestamps at: <http://www.abc.net.au/news/state/nsw/default.htm> - The home page currently has a timestamp (towards page top-right) of: "This Bulletin: Thu, Mar 22 2001 4:15 PM AEDT". - Even at the bottom of the first news page is the explanation of "AEDT" (which may disappear this weekend when DST ends in NSW): "AEDT = Australian Eastern Daylight Time which is 11 hours ahead of UTC (Greenwich Mean Time)" - These pages also appear in a search of the Commonwealth Government's <http://www.fed.gov.au/> Web site. - Australian Department of Defence <http://www.defence.gov.au/> - See various media releases, for example, referring to times in either "AEST" or "AEDT", including: <http://www.defence.gov.au/media/1997/05797.html> <http://www.defence.gov.au/media/1997/01197.html> - National Library of Australia <http://www.nla.gov.au/> - Search their Web site for "AEST", references to contacting them give times in this time zone: <http://www.nla.gov.au/dss/libraries_os.html#express> - Australian Taxation Office (ATO) - http://www.ato.gov.au/content.asp?doc=/content/tax_reform/nat3402.htm - Australian Football League (AFL) - Fixture times: <http://www.afl.com.au/matches/season_111.htm> - Australian Cricket Board (ACB) - Live game coverage: <http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/NATIONAL/AUS/MATCHES/> - "The Australian" (and other Murdoch/News-owned newspapers) - Example: <http://australianit.news.com.au/common/storyPage/0,3811,902553%255E2184,00. html> - You have to "view source" to see the "Updated...AEST" - Visible at the very bottom, "All times AEDT" - Other (small sample) - NineMSN's News service <http://www.news.ninemsn.com.au/> (notice current time given in AEDT) - "...each fortnightly Sunday morning at 8am AEST/AEDT" http://news.ninemsn.com.au/smallbusiness/help/help9.asp - AAP IS/News, as viewed through <http://au.dailynews.yahoo.com/> (pick AAP-sourced articles and notice times in "AEDT" and "AEST") The examples go on and on. As you can see, it is not just government sites using the time zones "AEST" and "AEDT" in this manner. An argument could probably be mounted to have all the Australian time zones altered accordingly (probably along the lines used by the ABC and The Australian), but it's mainly the Australia/Sydney time zone that interests me at present. I hope this is sufficient information/examples for consideration, but would be happy to provide further info/examples if necessary. Thanks for your consideration (and sorry for this being so long); hope to hear your comments soon. Cheers.. dave
Thanks for your well-researched letter. May we include extracts from it in the next version of the tz database? I recently found a nice summary of the situation in <http://www.dstc.qut.edu.au/DST/marg/daylight-other.html#zones>. That summary contains a December 2000 letter from Richard Brittain of the Australian National Standards Commission endorsing a suggestion identical to yours. I had been meaning to bring this up on the tz list at some point and your letter provides a good opportunity. Your evidence and Brittain's letter both suggest that we should change the Australians abbreviations in the tz data. However, before changing things, I would like to hear from other Australians about this, as I don't have personal expertise on this apparently controversial subject. Can other Australians please comment, if you care to? Thanks.
From: David J N Begley [mailto:d.begley@uws.edu.au] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:40 AM
I can't speak for Mr Mackin's direct experience, but I can most certainly contest the assertion that, "We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as `daylight' time" - certainly everyone I know (and myself, of course) have always used the term "daylight savings" rather than "summer time".
I suspect that Mr Mackin was referring to the suffix used in time zone time zone names (e.g. phrases like "Eastern Daylight Time" versus "Eastern Summer Time"), not the general notion of daylight saving time. This may explain part of the discrepancy between his experience and yours. Another possible explanation is that Australians may now be using American time zone terminology more often than previously.
- Browse the ABC News site and see the instances of "AEST" and "AEDT" (even "ACST" and "AWST" for central and western standard time) in
ABC News also uses EAT/EAST on occasion; see <http://www.abc.net.au/tennis/1.htm>. The Australian Tranport Safety Bureau uses EST/ESuT; see e.g. <http://www.basi.gov.au/occurs/ob200000765.htm>. I assume the "Su" stands for "Summer". I've never seen that abbreviation before, but it is apparently common enough in Australia that Novell supports it; see <http://www.ithowto.com/Novell/clienttime.htm>. I even found a few instances of AEST/AESuT, though none by big organizations; e.g., see <http://www.fam.aust.com/watson/andrew/details.htm>. The Tasmanian Department of Education uses AET/AEST; see <http://www.tased.edu.au/tasfaq/geography/timezone.html>. AUSLIG, Australia's national mapping agency, uses EST/EDT; see <http://www.auslig.gov.au/geodesy/astro/sunrise.htm>. Clearly there is not a universal consensus, even among single organizations; all we can do is record the most common and best current practice (and with luck "most common" == "best current practice").
Paul Eggert writes: | Your evidence and Brittain's letter both suggest that we should change | the Australians abbreviations in the tz data. However, before | changing things, I would like to hear from other Australians about | this, as I don't have personal expertise on this apparently | controversial subject. Can other Australians please comment, if you | care to? Thanks. I have previously requested this change (and been shouted down by people who seemed to think that some holy grail of "correct" behaviour that they believed in was more important than doing something meaningful). I reiterate as strongly as possible that I want to see AEST/AEDT adopted for the eastern Australian zones.
- Browse the ABC News site and see the instances of "AEST" and "AEDT" (even "ACST" and "AWST" for central and western standard time) in
ABC News also uses EAT/EAST on occasion; see <http://www.abc.net.au/tennis/1.htm>.
They also use AET/AEST on occasion; see <http://www.abc.net.au/referendum99/abc.htm>. One more thought. An important goal of changing the abbreviations is to reduce ambiguity. "AEST" is ambiguous in practice, since some people use AEST/AEDT and others use AET/AEST. (ABC News uses both. :-) One solution would be to use unambiguous abbreviation pairs like AET/AEDT or AET/AESuT, but as far as I can tell these combinations are hardly ever used in practice.
On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Paul Eggert wrote:
Thanks for your well-researched letter.
You're welcome - sorry again that it's so long, but I didn't want to just say, "Hey, I reckon they should be changed" without giving some evidence that I wasn't dreaming up those abbreviations by myself.
That summary contains a December 2000 letter from Richard Brittain of the Australian National Standards Commission endorsing a suggestion identical to yours. I had been meaning to bring this up on the tz list at some point and your letter provides a good opportunity.
I have read some of the NSC's papers on time standards, which lead me to browsing the 1991(-ish) archives of the Commonwealth Hansard - the last instance the Federal Government tried to nationally legislate something about time. Basically what happened was that politicians representing States that do not adhere to daylight savings at all (such as Queensland) did not wish to see daylight savings imposed on them and so fought against the bill (one of the things the bill proposed to do was reduce the number of time zones across Australia). The end result is that the Commonwealth left the issue of time with the States and so the confusion about time zone names and abbreviations continues. [...use of term "daylight savings" vs "summer time"...]
I suspect that Mr Mackin was referring to the suffix used in time zone time zone names (e.g. phrases like "Eastern Daylight Time" versus "Eastern Summer Time"), not the general notion of daylight saving time. This may explain part of the discrepancy between his experience and yours.
Ahh, fair enough. I honestly didn't mean any disrespect to Mr Mackin, just disagreed with what I thought he was saying...
The Australian Tranport Safety Bureau uses EST/ESuT; see e.g. <http://www.basi.gov.au/occurs/ob200000765.htm>. I assume the "Su" stands for "Summer". I've never seen that abbreviation before...
Me neither! It could be a correction for the "EST/EST" ambiguity in the existing tz database...
...but it is apparently common enough in Australia that Novell supports it; see <http://www.ithowto.com/Novell/clienttime.htm>.
Probably as with PostgreSQL, someone's come up with their own "corrected" time zone abbreviations. Interesting to see both "AEST" and "AEDT" also included.
One more thought. An important goal of changing the abbreviations is to reduce ambiguity. "AEST" is ambiguous in practice, since some people use AEST/AEDT and others use AET/AEST. (ABC News uses both. :-)
Quite right! The best one could hope for is whatever seems "most common" (and yes, I accept that this is hard to measure). I hypothesise (and readily accept others may disagree) that in addition to the lack of standards, I suspect the time zone database's use of "EST" for both standard and summer times has contributed (even if just a little) to people creating their own abbreviations.
One solution would be to use unambiguous abbreviation pairs like AET/AEDT or AET/AESuT, but as far as I can tell these combinations are hardly ever used in practice.
I'm sure there's *someone* out there using them, just as with all the other variations. Apart from "EST" or "EDT" in various corners, I believe "AEST" and "AEDT" have the next most legitimate claim to being "in common use". On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Eric Ulevik wrote:
But the most common case is Eastern Standard Time / Eastern Summer Time.
Both terms are used in a local context, most assuredly; however, their obvious (EST) abbreviations are not necessarily "most common". For example, if Channel Nine is announcing the broadcast times for the cricket they will say something like "2:30pm eastern standard time" - the "Australian" is redundant/assumed in this context because it's not of relevance to New Zealand or anyone else. In cases whereby things get too complicated, they will simply say, "Check your local guides for details". Yet, if you look specifically at abbreviations, "AEST" and "AEDT" are quite common (even in Nine's own electronic news service); not universal, sure, but that's due to the lack of standards so everyone's making up their own. [...pause...] Okay, I just conducted a totally unscientific experiment with two colleagues who happened to be walking by (yeah, hard to prove, but anyway)... they both agreed on "EST" in the local context because "A" (Australian) was redundant, but would both use "AEST" in the global context. For summer/daylight savings time, one would use "EDT" whilst the other would use "EDST" - again, local context, prefixing with an "A" for the global context. When asked if they would recognise or accept "AEST" for standard time and "AEDT" for summer/daylight savings time, they both were happy to accept those abbreviations (since they had already encountered them elsewhere, such as the sources I've previously given as usage examples).
It's my view that the tz database should attempt to record current practice, rather than invent new systems.
I hope I have demonstrated in some small way (short of pointing to every URL, news clipping or other document that ever has, or ever will, use "AEST" or "AEDT") that by switching from "EST/EST" to "AEST/AEDT" is not really inventing a "new system" but just updating the "common usage" (acknowledged, not universal - but you'll never get a universal usage in the absence of a standard anyway). I don't know what sort of poll would be sufficient for the keepers of the tz database to decide one way or another; you could post to a newsgroup or two, but the results could always be argued to be skewed towards a certain type of user anyway. Whatever decision you ultimately make, thank you for at least being open to comment and discussion on the matter (unlike certain others). Cheers.. dave
| From: David J N Begley [mailto:d.begley@uws.edu.au] | Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:40 AM | To: Time Zone Database | Subject: Updated Australian time zone names/strings | I'd like to request the "EST/EST" time zone strings for Australian eastern | standard and summer/daylight-savings time be changed to "AEST/AEDT", given | that "EST/EST": This would be nice, except that EST/EST is correct. | - does not necessarily gel with "common practice" in Australia. Actually, it does. | However, some systems use the time zone database as an "expert reference" | from which to extrapolate incorrect information Extracting anything from timezone abbreviations is sheer luncay. Anything that does that is broken, almost by definition. | I can't speak for Mr Mackin's direct experience, but I can most certainly | contest the assertion that, "We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as | `daylight' time" - certainly everyone I know (and myself, of course) have | always used the term "daylight savings" rather than "summer time". In common speech, either is used, that's certainly true. What John meant I believe is what is defined in the legislation. he's no longer with us to speak for himself, but I think his views were much the same as mine. | Unfortunately Mr Mackin does not indicate to what State he refers, NSW. | but in *this* State (New South Wales - NSW), the relevant legislation | clearly uses both terms (summer time and daylight savings) interchangeably; It uses daulight savings only in a few headings, etc - the actual content of the act (had you bothered to quote that) uses and defines "New South Wales Summer Time". The Victorian Act (when I looked this up way back when this issue was first relevant) defines Eastern Summer Time (I think the Vic parliament felt it had a mandate to legislate for all of Eastern Australia... or perhaps hoped that it would at least be uniform.) I haven't checked it recently and don't have a URL for the Vic act, but I expect it is still pretty similar. | for reference, | see the Standard Time Act 1987 (NSW), which *predates* Mr Mackin's comment: | | "New South Wales Consolidated Acts - STANDARD TIME ACT 1987" | http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/sta1987137/ | | Whilst the Act clearly defines "standard time" and "summer time", it also | makes specific mention of "daylight saving": Yes, it does all of that - and it defines "summer time" not "daylight saving time" - the purpose of the time shift is for "daylight savings". | - part 3 of the Act, talking about summer time, is in fact entitled: | "PART 3 - DAYLIGHT SAVING" And in that, every section is headers "Summer Time in XXX" (for the various different XXX they have to deal with - the majority of NSW, Broken Hill, Lord Howe Island, etc). | Clearly, the assertion that Australia always uses the term "summer time" | instead of "daylight time" or "daylight savings" (and therefore, the time | zone abbreviations must be the same) is *incorrect*. The legislation defines Summer Time. There really is no doubt about that. And what's more, it doesn't define (anywhere that I'm aware of) "Australian" anything, si sticking an "A" in the abbreviation is also not correct. | The confusion arises because in Australia it is the States (not the | Federal/national government) that legislate time changes during the summer | months; whilst technically it is a federal responsibility under the | constitution (as a measure related to commerce), This might, or might not, be true. Defining the length of a second is clearly a measure, defining the time of day (or of the year) quite possibly is not. | Subsequently, there is no standard name for time zones or summer clock | shifts There is no common standard name - each state has defined its own however. | just "common use" (for various definitions of "common") that sometimes vary | from State to State. They're not just common use, the label "summer time" is quite clear in (at least) both the NSW and Vic acts. | In the media you will experience all manner of phrases | used such as "Eastern Time", "Summer Time", "Sydney Time" and numerous other | variants; for example, C&W Optus (a large telco) uses abbreviations such as | "AEDST" when referring to Australian eastern daylight savings time. People make up all kinds of rubbish. | I suspect, apart from Mr Mackin's comments above, that the local use of the | phrase "Eastern Standard Time" (which is clearly local in context) is what | has | led to the use of the ambiguous "EST" in the time zone database. More | recently, however, the media is recognising the global context (rather than | local) and starting to prefix time zone references with "Australian" (more | on this below). You will get me to accept that at exactly the same time as you get the UTS-0500 timezone name changed to "United States Eastern Standard Time" (and abbreviated as USEST). | As noted above, this confusing lack of standards, local phrases and personal | experiences have found their way into the time zone database, In much of the world, the concept of "time zone" is unknown, there is just "the time" - as there is only one time for the whole country (and local cultural group, in and outside the country perhaps). Many of the time zone names in the database are quite clearly simply made up by us, and reflect nothing at all other than our desire to give them a label. | Great! To get this bug fixed convince the authorities to change the laws | and regulations of the country this effects. glibc behaves correctly." The bug is in attempting to trun a timezone string into a numeric offset - that's simply crazy. | This is clearly based on Mr Mackin's comment in the time zone database, and | as I have demonstrated is wrong (in terms of the legislation and government | use). You attempted to, but you failed, as it is not wrong. kre
Earlier today, Robert Elz wrote:
This would be nice, except that EST/EST is correct.
By what definition? There is plenty of evidence to indicate that AEST/AEDT is in common use and even the quoted (not by me) message from the National Standards Commission suggests that AEST/AEDT is not only valid, but correct.
It uses daulight savings only in a few headings, etc - the actual content of the act (had you bothered to quote that) uses and defines "New South Wales Summer Time".
"Bothered"? The references to various sections of the Act plus a URL pointing to the Act in its entirety didn't make the original message long enough? If one was to be as literal as you and John would prefer, then the time zone abbreviations would probably be "NSWST/NSWST" for both standard time and summer time (see part 1, section 2 of the Act); the fact that *nobody* uses those abbreviations in practice has to call into question the whole justification for using "EST/EST". Just to be clear, here is the relevant part of the definitions in the Act: "In this Act: [...] New South Wales standard time means standard time as fixed by section 3. New South Wales summer time means summer time as fixed by section 7." No mention at all of "eastern" anything.
The Victorian Act (when I looked this up way back when this issue was first relevant) defines Eastern Summer Time (I think the Vic parliament felt it had a mandate to legislate for all of Eastern Australia... or perhaps hoped that it would at least be uniform.)
How does this relate to the abbreviations used for "Australia/Sydney" in the time zone database? ;-)
I haven't checked it recently and don't have a URL for the Vic act, but I expect it is still pretty similar.
I am only guessing that this is still correct given that it also shows up on a search of the Victorian Government's Web sites: "Summer Time Act 1972" http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol%5fact/sta1972147/ Herein the definitions are of "standard time" and "summer time", not "eastern" anything; again, if taken literally then the abbreviations for Victoria would be simply "ST/ST". Honestly, Robert, the legislation is not all that useful in determining time zone names or abbreviations (for the purposes of the tz database anyway) - all the laws do is give authority to the fact that those States will observe daylight savings time during summer, that's all. In my own defence at quoting from the NSW Act, I was arguing against the (only perceived?) suggestion that the term "daylight saving" is never used in Australia, that's all. Even a search for "Eastern Standard Time" on the Victorian Government's Web site (www.vic.gov.au) turns up references to "AEST" and "Australian Eastern Standard Time" (and yes, other variations for standard and summer time too). Heck, searching AustLII's and SCALEplus' databases (and no, I'm not going to bother quoting anything this time) shows appearances in legal proceedings of the following phrases/abbreviations in relation to time: - "AEST" in the Federal Court of Australia and the Migration Review Tribunal of Australia; - "AEDT" in the Supreme Court of New South Wales; - "Australian Eastern Standard Time" in the Federal Court of Australia and the Supreme Court of Victoria; and, - "Australian Eastern Daylight Saving Time" in the Commonwealth Administrative Appeals Tribunal and the Federal Court of Australia{*}. {*} Interestingly, here both the full name and a different abbreviation are given; the case is BHP Steel (AIS) Pty Ltd v Construction, Forestry, Mining & Energy Union [2000] FCA 1853 (15 December 2000), where Justice Kiefel wrote (presumably obiter dictum): Australian Eastern Daylight Saving Time ("AEDST") Further, some legislation *relies* on these abbreviations and phrases; for example, the Commonwealth Corporations (Unlisted Property Trusts) Amendment Act 1991 No. 200 of 1991, section 10: "'commencement' means 4.50 p.m. Australian Eastern Standard Time on 23 July" It's good enough for the courts and legislation... On the issue of whether or not the Commonwealth Government has the power to legislate time zones as a measure of commerce, clearly the NSC includes time as a measure of commerce and the Commonwealth has considered time zones within its power (which is why it tried to legislate to that effect in 1991 - see Hansard). As for "summer time" in the State legislation, this is clearly a definition for the legal purposes of interpreting the rest of the relevant Acts, not for defining common use beyond a local context (otherwise, how do you account for the Corporations Act amendment that refers to "Australian Eastern Standard Time"?). Some interesting papers on the topic of time in Australia (which at least once refer to "Eastern Standard Time") is available from the NSC: "The Australian National Time System" http://www.nsc.gov.au/PDF_Word/Info/L08.pdf "Daylight Saving" http://www.nsc.gov.au/PDF_Word/Info/L27.pdf
You will get me to accept that at exactly the same time as you get the UTS-0500 timezone name changed to "United States Eastern Standard Time" (and abbreviated as USEST).
I don't have any information on (or care about) that time zone. :-)
| Great! To get this bug fixed convince the authorities to change the laws | and regulations of the country this effects. glibc behaves correctly."
The bug is in attempting to trun a timezone string into a numeric offset - that's simply crazy.
I won't disagree with you on that point (and in case you're assuming that this is what I'm trying to do, you're wrong).
| This is clearly based on Mr Mackin's comment in the time zone database, and | as I have demonstrated is wrong (in terms of the legislation and government | use).
You attempted to, but you failed, as it is not wrong.
Given the evidence available that supports changing the time zone abbreviations from EST/EST to AEST/AEDT, by what authority do you claim to be correct? I've gone to great lengths to demonstrate that this is more than just my "personal preference" but is also in widespread (and legitimate) use; in response, you simply retort "it is wrong" and provide no evidence for this assertion. Come on, Robert - "knows and responds to everything" shouldn't be taken literally y'know... dave
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 02:20:25 +1100 (EST) From: David J N Begley <d.begley@uws.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0103242335210.8154-100000@avarice.nepean.uws.edu.au> | > This would be nice, except that EST/EST is correct. | By what definition? Just read the acts - they define summer time. Daylight savings is the reason (that's the objective) - it is mentioned in the NSW and SA acts (not in the Vic one which is where this all started incidentally), but in all of them, the "modified" time is called "summer time" not "daylight savings time" - not once, not anywhere. | There is plenty of evidence to indicate that AEST/AEDT is | in common use and even the quoted (not by me) message from the National | Standards Commission suggests that AEST/AEDT is not only valid, but correct. It isn't (currently anyway) their business - but there's no doubt (as has been demonstrated many times) that there are many different abbreviations in common use. We have to pick one of them. "Summer Time" is what the acts call it, so "summer time" is what it is in the tz database. | "Bothered"? Yes. | The references to various sections of the Act plus a URL pointing | to the Act in its entirety didn't make the original message long enough? You could have omitted the quotes from the act which made it seem as if it was in support of the use of "daylight savings time", which it isn't. Just giving the URL would have been quite sufficient. | If one was to be as literal as you and John would prefer, then the time zone | abbreviations would probably be "NSWST/NSWST" for both standard time and | summer time (see part 1, section 2 of the Act); Yes, I hadn't seen the NSW act before this, and I think that would be a reasonable label to give the timezone given that. the same is true for South Aus - but not for Vic. But ... | the fact that *nobody* uses those abbreviations in practice Yes, since we prefer to think of Aust (without summer time) as having three timezones, eastern, central, and western, those three labels are in common use. When summer time appeared, the temptation was clearly there to continue with that, but replacing "standard" with "summer". | has to call into question the whole | justification for using "EST/EST". I have always assumed this was a quite deliberate choice by the (various) parliaments - the idea of the summer time act (Vic) (and the others in the other states) is that all times as specified anywhere would simply apply as written with the one hour offset applied. Since "EST" (etc) is quite common the idea was (I assumed) to make it that "10 am EST" meant "10 am EST" (10 o'clock local time in eastern states according to the clock, at any time of the year) whether it was standard time or summer time. That is, the ambiguity was deliberate and very intentional. | How does this relate to the abbreviations used for "Australia/Sydney" in the | time zone database? ;-) Not a lot directly - except that it was the Vic act that inspired the use of EST/EST (and CST/CST WST/WST except there is only one WST...) in the first place in the tz database. Mackin's comments came later. The use of EST/EST in unix timezone code predates the tz database and the current tz database using tz code. | I am only guessing that this is still correct given that it also shows | up on a search of the Victorian Government's Web sites: It certainly looks to be - and I can't think of any reason they would have changed that. Thanks for finding the URL for the Vic act though. Note that in that one the "daylight savings" phrase doesn't occur at all. That's what I used when I first created EST/EST (back in an early BSD distribution when all of this was compiled into the ctime sources, with the kernel just indicating which timezone applied ... back then there was just one for eastern Australia). | Honestly, Robert, the legislation is not all that useful in determining | time zone names or abbreviations The legislation specifies what the time is called, so I'm not sure how you can just disregard it. | (for the purposes of the tz database anyway) - all | the laws do is give authority to the fact that those States will observe | daylight savings time during summer, that's all. They specify that all times from date X to date Y will be summer time, and the rest of the year will be standard time. | Even a search for "Eastern Standard Time" on the Victorian Government's Web | site (www.vic.gov.au) turns up references to "AEST" and "Australian Eastern | Standard Time" (and yes, other variations for standard and summer time too). There is no question but that it is Australian Eastern Summer Time. Just like it is Unites States Eastern Standard Time. No-one includes the country name (or region name since it also includes Canada, and I think Mexico as well). Country names are not typically included in time zone names, for the same reason that many countries don't have time zone names at all - historically there simply hasn't been that global a view of time zones, only the current local time, and other time zones in the same country have usually mattered. | Further, some legislation *relies* on these abbreviations and phrases; for | example, the Commonwealth Corporations (Unlisted Property Trusts) Amendment | Act 1991 No. 200 of 1991, section 10: | | "'commencement' means 4.50 p.m. Australian Eastern Standard Time | on 23 July" That's interesting, as I think we have managed to demonstrate that there is no such thing defined anywhere. | On the issue of whether or not the Commonwealth Government has the power to | legislate time zones as a measure of commerce, clearly the NSC includes time | as a measure of commerce and the Commonwealth has considered time zones within | its power (which is why it tried to legislate to that effect in 1991 - see | Hansard). The commonwealth parliament has attempted to legislate on lots of stuff for which they have no power. Until it is either tested in the High Court or the states actually explicitly transfer that power to the commonwealth I doubt we will ever know. You will note that the commonwealth only tried to legislate - they actually gave up on the attempt (largely, I believe, because they weren't actually certain that it was their responsibility). Unless the states manage to mess things up so badly that the commonwealth feels that it needs to step in and define common timezones for all of Aust and then it gets tested in the courts, we will never really be certain. What is clear though is that unless that happens, the NSC clearly has no power at all to attempt to specify what the timezones should be called. | As for "summer time" in the State legislation, this is clearly a definition | for the legal purposes of interpreting the rest of the relevant Acts, I'm not quite sure what to say to that ... the acts change the timezone for Vic/NSW/S.Aus (and I guess there's one for Tas as well), they say what the time is to be called (summer time, or standard time). | not for | defining common use beyond a local context (otherwise, how do you account | for the Corporations Act amendment that refers to "Australian Eastern | Standard Time"?). Huh? That's standard time - it was unambiguously specifying a particular time (and date). The "Australian" part of all of this (the regional part) is much less clear in general than the use of standard/summer as the different names for the timezones. Aside from that it was Standard Time, if it had said "daylight savings time" the argument may have been stronger, but it didn't (given it was in the middle of Winter, it also would have been srprising). | I don't have any information on (or care about) that time zone. :-) But you want to change the Aus abbreviations so they don't clash with it. | > The bug is in attempting to trun a timezone string into a numeric | > offset - that's simply crazy. | I won't disagree with you on that point (and in case you're assuming that | this is what I'm trying to do, you're wrong). If you're not trying to interpret the timezone string, then why does this matter to anything. As long as no-one does anything with these strings other than displaying them to users, then there really is no problem. There is no great user uprising complaining that they don't understand the abbreviations. | Given the evidence available that supports changing the time zone | abbreviations from EST/EST to AEST/AEDT, Absolutely nothing (other than the fact that some people use it, and are incorrect in doing so), nothing at all supports the "D". It is quite clearly summer time, not daylight time. Summer time is implemented for saving daylight (for daylight savings). The "A" part is less clear, it clearly is Australian EST, just as it is quite clear that UTC-0500 is US (and Canadian) EST. When we have USEST and CEST, then AEST will be the right thing to do. Not until then. | you simply retort "it is wrong" and provide no evidence for this | assertion. I didn't need to - you did already - the acts (for which you have given the URLs) are very clear that it is summer time, not daylight time. What else is possibly needed? kre
Earlier today, Robert Elz wrote:
| > This would be nice, except that EST/EST is correct. | By what definition?
Just read the acts - they define summer time.
Those same Acts say absolutely nothing that supports the use of the "E"; if one were to remain true to the Acts, then the tz database is wrong in any case. The fact that the tz database uses the "E" prefix at all demonstrates that "common use" should also play a part in determining the database's contents. Let's try and summarise your position (please correct me if I have misunderstood): - You argue that the names used in relevant legislation are the only valid source for the Australian time zones, and therefore "summer time" is correct whilst "daylight( saving(s|)) time" is incorrect. For this reason, both normal and DST abbreviations should be identical. - You further argue that "EST" is correct because some no-longer valid Victorian legislation used the term "Eastern Standard Time". - Finally, you argue that until the United States, Canada and possibly Mexico change "EST" to include a country-specific prefix, then "EST" should remain in use for Australia; and besides which, there is no major revolt amongst users so it doesn't hurt to leave the abbreviations as they are. In response, my position is this: - Relying entirely on the legislation of the States and territories that observe DST (namely, ACT, NSW, VIC, SA and TAS) there is no definition of time involving the words "east", "eastern" or anything of similar meaning; references can be found on AustLII or SCALEplus: ACT: STANDARD TIME AND SUMMER TIME ACT 1972 NSW: STANDARD TIME ACT 1987 VIC: SUMMER TIME ACT 1972 SA: DAYLIGHT SAVING ACT, 1971 TAS: DAYLIGHT SAVING ACT 1968 Therefore, if relying entirely on the legislation then the tz database contains incorrect time zone names and abbreviations for the affected Australian time zones (probably all of them). - The verbatim time references (and the obvious abbreviations thereof) taken from the legislation are not widely used (if at all), as the legislation is State/territory-specific whilst most references to time that include a time zone are of a national nature. - Given that the tz database is already out-of-sync with the legislation and the legislation does not match "common use", it is only reasonable to adopt the names and abbreviations from "common use" for the tz database. - The courts have scope to interpret the meanings of time zone names or abbreviations that are not otherwise explicitly defined in legislation, therefore citing a lack of explicit legislative definition is insufficient justification for arguing that "summer time" is correct whilst "daylight( saving(s|)) time" is incorrect (cf. Latimer, P., 1994, "Australian Business Law", 13th ed - "Interpretation of Statutes"). - In common use, the terms "daylight( saving(s|)) time" are just as widespread (more so in some cases) as the term "summer time"; this includes government use. - "AEST" and "AEDT" are two of the many time zone abbreviations used by government and industry when referring to UTC+10 and UTC+11 within Australia; their use is not limited to a specific group. Examples have been provided for independent verification/refutation. - Similarly, "Australian Eastern Standard Time" and "Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time" are phrases in widespread use (particularly the first phrase). Examples have been provided for independent verification/refutation. - There is no national standard nor universal usage of time zone names or abbreviations across Australia due to the historical reasons previously presented; therefore, it should be acceptable to, after some research, adopt what appears to be "common use". - The closest agency Australia has to a national measurement standards body is the National Standards Commission, which has indicated support for the use of "AEST" and "AEDT". Whilst Robert argues that it currently has no legislative power to decide or advise on such matters, it must be remembered that the use of EST/EST has no basis in current legislation either. - The world will not end without changing the time zone abbreviations; however, it will not end if they *are* changed. Given that some groups are starting to rely on the tz database as authoritative (wrong though that may be), it is only reasonable to reconsider whether or not EST/EST is still valid for Australian eastern time zones. - Changing zone names or abbreviations for any other country should not be a prerequisite for reconsidering Australian zone names or abbreviations. So, what happens now? It seems clear that Robert and I cannot agree and at last count it was at least two in favour of changing EST/EST to AEST/AEDT and definitely two against. Not that any further "common use" examples should really be necessary, but: - The other day in "The Daily Telegraph" (print media, newspaper) the stages for Mir's descent were noted at times clearly marked, "AEST". - On Sunday during a motorcar television broadcast, a Channel Ten announcer mentioned the time of a future broadcast being at "Australian Eastern Standard Time" (spoken in full). - Given that EST/EST for use in all Australian jurisdictions was based on Victorian legislation (the Victorian Government cannot legislate outside the State of Victoria), an exact string match of the VIC Government's Web sites for the following strings turns up: "Australian Eastern Summer Time" - 5 hits, all at the Melbourne Planetarium "Eastern Summer Time" - the same 5 hits as with "Australian" included "Australian Eastern Daylight" - 11 hits, all at the Melbourne Planetarium - 4 hits using "Australian Eastern Daylight Time" - 7 hits using "Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time" "Eastern Daylight" - 14 hits - the same 11 hits as with "Australian" included - 1 hit from the Planetarium that has both "Australian Eastern Summer Time" and "Aust. Eastern Daylight Savings Time" on the same page - 2 hits on Victoria Government Gazettes, referring to "Eastern Daylight Savings Time" "AEST" - 59 hits (only the first results page of which was checked) - many hits from the Melbourne Planetarium again - one hit defining "AEST: Australian Eastern Standard Time" - one hit defining "AEST UTC + 10" "AEDT" - in all fairness, zero hits within the Victorian Government Web sites (see previous references for its use elsewhere) Robert asserts that the use of "Australian Eastern Standard Time" in the Commonwealth Corporations Act refers to "standard time" and that it "unambiguously [specifies] a particular time (and date)"; this is incorrect, as the Corporations Act is a *Commonwealth* (not State) Act and there is no Commonwealth definition of "standard time", thereby leaving this an ambiguous reference to each State/territory's own definition of "standard time". Clearly, for a national law, this is sheer lunacy (given that Australia spreads over at least three time zones, leading to multiple interpretations of "standard time"); anyone can reasonably determine that the legislators intended UTC+10 and that is precisely what the High Court would find under their powers for interpretation of legislation (which go beyond what is explicitly "defined" in the Acts).
Absolutely nothing (other than the fact that some people use it, and are incorrect in doing so)... It is quite clearly summer time, not daylight time
Only according to your own admitted assumptions, not in any authoritative sense. If it is acceptable to pervert the definitions in the legislation to become EST/EST, then it is equally acceptable to follow common practice and update these abbreviations to AEST/AEDT. Cheers.. dave
On 2001-03-22 at 03:40 David J N Begley <d.begley@uws.edu.au> wrote:
I can't speak for Mr Mackin's direct experience, but I can most certainly contest the assertion that, "We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as `daylight' time" - certainly everyone I know (and myself, of course) have always used the term "daylight savings" rather than "summer time".
Yes, we (Australians) certainly usually speak of "daylight saving" (or, with disputable correctness, "daylight savings"*) and "daylight-saving time", but we do _not_ speak of "daylight time"! All the examples and demonstrations given of the former are of no avail: they in no way support the assertion that Australians use or are familiar with the term "daylight time" or an abbreviation containing "DT" derived from it. "DST" is fairly likely to be understood, but not "DT". In my opinion, time-zone, or more accurately time-offset, abbreviation strings are a self-indulgent folly. I cannot really imagine what benefit they convey, in comparison to explicit numeric offsets, besides possibly indicating with unpredictable and widely varying granularity something about the accompanying data's location of origin and that location's time-offset history, all of which can be determined much more reliably and comprehensively by other means, and none of which is necessary to determine the time being represented in terms of another offset. Isn't determining the equivalent time according to another offset nearly always the _only_ purpose of time-offset abbreviation strings? And isn't that purpose fulfilled flawlessly by explicit offset indicators, something which time-offset abbreviations clearly do not do and cannot, judging by the intractable discussion on the subject, be expected to do anytime soon? It would seem to me that explicit numeric offsets should be compulsory, with offset abbreviations an optional indulgent addition to be regarded as no more than comment and ignored by software. My two cents' worth. --Alex ________________ * To be consistent with the terms "saving" and "savings" from economics, "daylight saving" would be the practice of saving daylight, whereas "daylight savings" would be what is saved, which in this case is hard to nail down, but might be considered to be an hour a day. _______________ Alex LIVINGSTON IT, Australian Graduate School of Management (AGSM), UNSW SYDNEY NSW 2052 Fax: +61 2 9931-9349 / Phone: +61 2 9931-9264 / Time: UTC + 10 or 11 hours It's year 2001, decade 201, century 21, and millennium 3 - the 1st year of the 1st decade of the 1st century of the 3rd millennium. Elapsed average years since epoch* at end of today (Apr. 17): 2000.29295605 * 1-1-1 (year 1, month 1, day 1: periods) at 00:00:00 (0 o'clock: instant)
participants (6)
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Alex LIVINGSTON
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David J N Begley
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Greg Black
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Olson, Arthur David (NCI)
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Paul Eggert
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Robert Elz