David Begley is not on the time zone mailing list; direct replies appropriately. --ado -----Original Message----- From: David J N Begley [mailto:d.begley@uws.edu.au] Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:40 AM To: Time Zone Database Subject: Updated Australian time zone names/strings To whom it may concern... Summary: I'd like to request the "EST/EST" time zone strings for Australian eastern standard and summer/daylight-savings time be changed to "AEST/AEDT", given that "EST/EST": - clashes with an existing U.S. time zone; - gives no indication of the difference between standard/d'light savings; - is unnecessarily confusing; - is incorrectly quoted from the time zone database as authoritative; and, - does not necessarily gel with "common practice" in Australia. Whilst it is arguable exactly what string/abbreviation should be used in the absence of formal standards, I present "common usage" examples below and argue that at the very least, the abbreviations for standard and daylight savings time should be *different*. Detail: Checking the tzdata2001a archive (and various UNIX systems), Australian eastern time zones (particularly "Australia/Sydney") use the time zone string "EST" for both standard and summer/daylight-savings time. Notionally, this is just a visual issue that doesn't really bring the IT industry to its knees if it's wrong since most decent systems work directly on the UTC offset instead. However, some systems use the time zone database as an "expert reference" from which to extrapolate incorrect information - it is this that triggered my submission to you. For example, the time zone database includes the following comment: # From John Mackin (1991-03-06): # We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as `daylight' time. # It is called `summer' time. Now by a happy coincidence, `summer' # and `standard' happen to start with the same letter; hence, the # abbreviation does _not_ change... I can't speak for Mr Mackin's direct experience, but I can most certainly contest the assertion that, "We in Australia have _never_ referred to DST as `daylight' time" - certainly everyone I know (and myself, of course) have always used the term "daylight savings" rather than "summer time". I've used UNIX systems for years so to a certain degree I'm used to this "error" in the time zone database; however, now that people are using the database as an authoritative resource (despite the comments in the file to the contrary), I thought it only fair to request a correction (in the hope that those relying on the database will in turn correct their information). Mr Mackin continues: # The legislation does not actually define abbreviations, at least # in this State, but the abbreviation is just commonly taken to be the # initials of the phrase, and the legislation here uniformly uses # the phrase `summer time' and does not use the phrase `daylight # time'. Unfortunately Mr Mackin does not indicate to what State he refers, but in *this* State (New South Wales - NSW), the relevant legislation clearly uses both terms (summer time and daylight savings) interchangeably; for reference, see the Standard Time Act 1987 (NSW), which *predates* Mr Mackin's comment: "New South Wales Consolidated Acts - STANDARD TIME ACT 1987" http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/sta1987137/ Whilst the Act clearly defines "standard time" and "summer time", it also makes specific mention of "daylight saving": - the long title of the legislation is: "An Act relating to standard time and daylight saving in New South Wales." - part 3 of the Act, talking about summer time, is in fact entitled: "PART 3 - DAYLIGHT SAVING" For further evidence of the use of the term "daylight saving", see: "Time in New South Wales" (NSW Attorney General's Department) http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/crd.nsf/pages/time1 "Daylight Saving in New South Wales" (NSW Department of Public Works and Services) http://dir.gis.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/genobject/document/other/daylightsaving/ti gGmZITWr0 "When does daylight savings start in Australia?" (National Standards Commission) http://www.nsc.gov.au/PAGES/Info/info_faq.html#Daylight Savings "Daylight Saving" (National Standards Commission) http://www.nsc.gov.au/PDF_WORD/Info/IL27.pdf Clearly, the assertion that Australia always uses the term "summer time" instead of "daylight time" or "daylight savings" (and therefore, the time zone abbreviations must be the same) is *incorrect*. The confusion arises because in Australia it is the States (not the Federal/national government) that legislate time changes during the summer months; whilst technically it is a federal responsibility under the constitution (as a measure related to commerce), the parliament has never really been able to pass legislation on the matter due to the fear that the States would see this as removing some of their legislative powers (see Hansard, Commonwealth House of Representatives, 1991). Subsequently, there is no standard name for time zones or summer clock shifts just "common use" (for various definitions of "common") that sometimes vary from State to State. In the media you will experience all manner of phrases used such as "Eastern Time", "Summer Time", "Sydney Time" and numerous other variants; for example, C&W Optus (a large telco) uses abbreviations such as "AEDST" when referring to Australian eastern daylight savings time. I suspect, apart from Mr Mackin's comments above, that the local use of the phrase "Eastern Standard Time" (which is clearly local in context) is what has led to the use of the ambiguous "EST" in the time zone database. More recently, however, the media is recognising the global context (rather than local) and starting to prefix time zone references with "Australian" (more on this below). As noted above, this confusing lack of standards, local phrases and personal experiences have found their way into the time zone database, into nearly every UNIX system (well...) and has now created even more confusion, especially as some people start to quote the time zone database as authoritative. For example: "Australian time zones and their naming variants account for fully one quarter of all time zones in the Postgres time zone lookup table." http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/7.0/user/datetime-appendix.htm (Caused by wierd variants - many of which I must admit to never having seen in use - to the ambiguous "EST". Also note that they recognise "AEST".) More of a concern, is this: "4.5. The timezone string for Sydney/Australia is wrong since even when daylight saving time is in effect the timezone string is EST. "{UD} The problem for some timezones is that the local authorities decided to use the term 'summer time' instead of 'daylight saving time'. In this case the abbreviation character `S' is the same as the standard one. So, for Sydney we have Eastern Standard Time = EST Eastern Summer Time = EST Great! To get this bug fixed convince the authorities to change the laws and regulations of the country this effects. glibc behaves correctly." http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/FAQ.html This is clearly based on Mr Mackin's comment in the time zone database, and as I have demonstrated is wrong (in terms of the legislation and government use). Unfortunately, despite the evidence, the glibc authors simply point to the time zone database as authoritative and allow this error to continue. glibc is *not* behaving correctly, nor is the time zone database (but to correct glibc I need to get the time zone database updated). So.. by this time I hope I've demonstrated that it *is* legitimate (and correct) to use a different abbreviation for daylight savings/summer time; all that remains is to demonstrate why I've chosen "AEST" and "AEDT" to replace "EST" for standard and daylight savings time respectively. Well, ignoring my own use of these abbreviations, some "common use" includes: - Australian Broadcasting Corporation <http://www.abc.net.au/news/> - Browse the ABC News site and see the instances of "AEST" and "AEDT" (even "ACST" and "AWST" for central and western standard time) in reference to eastern standard or eastern summer time depending on whether that particular State observes daylight savings or not. - In particular, see the "Posted" timestamps at: <http://www.abc.net.au/news/state/nsw/default.htm> - The home page currently has a timestamp (towards page top-right) of: "This Bulletin: Thu, Mar 22 2001 4:15 PM AEDT". - Even at the bottom of the first news page is the explanation of "AEDT" (which may disappear this weekend when DST ends in NSW): "AEDT = Australian Eastern Daylight Time which is 11 hours ahead of UTC (Greenwich Mean Time)" - These pages also appear in a search of the Commonwealth Government's <http://www.fed.gov.au/> Web site. - Australian Department of Defence <http://www.defence.gov.au/> - See various media releases, for example, referring to times in either "AEST" or "AEDT", including: <http://www.defence.gov.au/media/1997/05797.html> <http://www.defence.gov.au/media/1997/01197.html> - National Library of Australia <http://www.nla.gov.au/> - Search their Web site for "AEST", references to contacting them give times in this time zone: <http://www.nla.gov.au/dss/libraries_os.html#express> - Australian Taxation Office (ATO) - http://www.ato.gov.au/content.asp?doc=/content/tax_reform/nat3402.htm - Australian Football League (AFL) - Fixture times: <http://www.afl.com.au/matches/season_111.htm> - Australian Cricket Board (ACB) - Live game coverage: <http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/NATIONAL/AUS/MATCHES/> - "The Australian" (and other Murdoch/News-owned newspapers) - Example: <http://australianit.news.com.au/common/storyPage/0,3811,902553%255E2184,00. html> - You have to "view source" to see the "Updated...AEST" - Visible at the very bottom, "All times AEDT" - Other (small sample) - NineMSN's News service <http://www.news.ninemsn.com.au/> (notice current time given in AEDT) - "...each fortnightly Sunday morning at 8am AEST/AEDT" http://news.ninemsn.com.au/smallbusiness/help/help9.asp - AAP IS/News, as viewed through <http://au.dailynews.yahoo.com/> (pick AAP-sourced articles and notice times in "AEDT" and "AEST") The examples go on and on. As you can see, it is not just government sites using the time zones "AEST" and "AEDT" in this manner. An argument could probably be mounted to have all the Australian time zones altered accordingly (probably along the lines used by the ABC and The Australian), but it's mainly the Australia/Sydney time zone that interests me at present. I hope this is sufficient information/examples for consideration, but would be happy to provide further info/examples if necessary. Thanks for your consideration (and sorry for this being so long); hope to hear your comments soon. Cheers.. dave