Hello! City Kyiv is not Kiev. The *founder* of Kyiv is *Kyi*. Not Kie! Please see attached picture.
On 2017-12-07 22:07:19 (+0200), gocdoms gocdoms wrote:
City Kyiv is not Kiev. The *founder* of Kyiv is *Kyi*. Not Kie! Please see attached picture.
This already came up this week. http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2017-December/025680.html Just as "København" is called "Copenhagen" in English and "Warszawa" is called "Warsaw", the English name for "Київ" is "Kiev". The tz database is not the right place to campaign for changing the names of cities in English. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information
Hello Philip! This is a mistake! In polish Warszawa, English - Warsaw - OK. In Poland Latin letters (a, b, c, d, e...). No need to transliterate for international presentation. In Ukraine Cyrillic letters (а, б, в, г, ґ, д, е, є, ж, з, ...) It is different. For international presentation You need transliterate Cyrillic letters to Latin letters. In Russian (Cyrillic) - Киев, English transliterate - *Kiev - NOT CORRECT!!*! For international presentation. It is Russian version. This is not an official international name of the capital of Ukraine! It is Russian name. In Ukraine the Ukrainian language. It`s different! It is not Russian! In Ukrainian (Cyrillic) - Київ, official English transliterate - *Kyiv - CORRECT* Kyiv - this name used by NATO, UN, Council of US Geographic Names, US government, Canada government, English-speaking diplomatic institutions and other.... You cat see: *official page MFA* http://mfa.gov.ua/en/about-ukraine/info/regions *Parliament of Ukraine:* http://zakon0.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/55-2010-%D0%BF *Try translit:* https://pasport.org.ua/vazhlivo/transliteratsiya You can make a official request to Ukraine (MFA): http://mfa.gov.ua/en e-mail MFA: public.info@mfa.gov.ua *THIS IS A MISTAKE! IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED!* *Correctly write KYIV* https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%... https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%B7%D0%... 2017-12-08 17:50 GMT+00:00 Philip Paeps <philip@trouble.is>:
On 2017-12-07 22:07:19 (+0200), gocdoms gocdoms wrote:
City Kyiv is not Kiev. The *founder* of Kyiv is *Kyi*. Not Kie! Please see attached picture.
This already came up this week.
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2017-December/025680.html
Just as "København" is called "Copenhagen" in English and "Warszawa" is called "Warsaw", the English name for "Київ" is "Kiev". The tz database is not the right place to campaign for changing the names of cities in English.
Philip
-- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information
On 2017-12-15 09:14:08 (+0000), gocdoms gocdoms wrote:
2017-12-08 17:50 GMT+00:00 Philip Paeps <philip@trouble.is>:
On 2017-12-07 22:07:19 (+0200), gocdoms gocdoms wrote:
City Kyiv is not Kiev. The *founder* of Kyiv is *Kyi*. Not Kie! Please see attached picture.
This already came up this week.
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2017-December/025680.html
Just as "København" is called "Copenhagen" in English and "Warszawa" is called "Warsaw", the English name for "Київ" is "Kiev". The tz database is not the right place to campaign for changing the names of cities in English.
This is a mistake!
In polish Warszawa, English - Warsaw - OK. In Poland Latin letters (a, b, c, d, e...). No need to transliterate for international presentation. In Ukraine Cyrillic letters (а, б, в, г, ґ, д, е, є, ж, з, ...) It is different. For international presentation You need transliterate Cyrillic letters to Latin letters.
Some cities have different names in English than in their native language. Warsaw is an example. So are Copenhagen (København), Rome (Roma), Brussels (Brussel/Bruxelles), Delhi (दिल्ली), Moscow (Москва), Nicosia (Λευκωσία/Lefkoşa) and many others. It is not merely a matter of script but also a matter of language.
In Russian (Cyrillic) - Киев, English transliterate - *Kiev - NOT CORRECT!!*!
Kiev is not a transliteration. It is the English name of the city according to the authoritative references we are able to find. Just as "Moscow" or the other examples above are not transliterations but English names.
For international presentation. It is Russian version. This is not an official international name of the capital of Ukraine! It is Russian name.
Do you have authoritative references to international usage of "Kyiv" as the recognised English name?
In Ukraine the Ukrainian language. It`s different! It is not Russian!
Nobody is disputing that. But the names of the cities we use as timezone identifiers are not Ukrainian names (or Russian names) but English names. In this case, it happens that the English name (as far as we are able to tell) is the same as the Russian name. While this may be upsetting to Ukrainians, the tzdb is not the place to fix the English language.
In Ukrainian (Cyrillic) - Київ, official English transliterate - *Kyiv - CORRECT*
Kyiv - this name used by NATO
A search on nato.int gives me an approximately equal number of Kyiv/Kiev. No mention of which spelling they consider correct in English.
UN
http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/geoinfo/geoname.pdfk "(c) capital cities given in the orthography or Romanized form generally used on United Nations maps": Kiev. "(d) commonly found alternative forms of capital cities; and": Kyiv
Council of US Geographic Names
"Gazetteer Name" Kiev ("Language Name (Code)" English (en)). They do point out that "Kiev" is "conventional" and "Kyiv" is "approved".
US government, Canada government, English-speaking diplomatic institutions and other....
Pointers? Searches on US/Canadian/UK government websites yield an equal mix of "Kiev" (name in English) and "Kyiv" (transliteration of the name in Ukrainian). I was not able to find a US/UK/Canadian government source that specifies "Kyiv" as the correct spelling of the name of the city in English.
You cat see: *official page MFA* http://mfa.gov.ua/en/about-ukraine/info/regions *Parliament of Ukraine:* http://zakon0.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/55-2010-%D0%BF
*Try translit:* https://pasport.org.ua/vazhlivo/transliteratsiya
You can make a official request to Ukraine (MFA): http://mfa.gov.ua/en e-mail MFA: public.info@mfa.gov.ua
All of these are Ukrainian websites and I would expect them to use the Ukrainian name for the city. As far as I know, they are not authorities on the English language.
*THIS IS A MISTAKE! IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED!*
*Correctly write KYIV*
If you can point to authoritative references that state that "Kyiv" is the name of the city in English, then that's the way we should spell it. Most of the sources I was able to find in ten minutes of searching call the city "Kiev" in English but point out that "Kyiv" is the correct transliteration of the Ukrainian name. As far as I can tell the UN and the Council of US Geographic names (two sources you cite as using "Kyiv") call the city "Kiev" in English. Note that we do not have a "Europe/Koebenhavn" or a "Europe/Lefkosia" - to pick two examples of transliterations of local names that are different from the names of the cities in English. We have a "Europe/Copenhagen" and the "Europe/Nicosia". Please provide references to Kyiv being the name of the city in English and not only the correct transliteration of the name in Ukrainian. Everybody agrees that Kyiv is the correct transliteration of the Ukrainian name. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information
Philip Paeps said:
Kiev is not a transliteration. It is the English name of the city according to the authoritative references we are able to find.
Agreed.
Do you have authoritative references to international usage of "Kyiv" as the recognised English name? [...] All of these are Ukrainian websites and I would expect them to use the Ukrainian name for the city. As far as I know, they are not authorities on the English language.
The Oxford English Dictionary, which is about as close to an authority on the English language as you'll find, has 31 uses of the name Kiev and none of Kyiv. Several are for "chicken Kiev" or other similar dishes. There's one variant as a headword (rather than in a citation): the word "Kievan" (also "Kievian"), defined as: Of or pertaining to the city of Kiev, esp. with reference to the historical period (c900-1150) when it dominated European Russia. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
If Ukrainian people and Ukrainian government want people call the capital city as Kyiv instead of Kiev, Ukrainian government should probably launch a clear campaign sending this message to the world like how Czech government tell the world the country is named Czechia, or like how Kazakhstan largest city changed the English name from Russian Alma Ata to Almaty But in the context of tz database, if in case such campaign have been launched and most media as well as other usages do switch over to new name, will tz database follow such rename? As I understand one of the principle in tz database zone name is that names act as key and thus won't easily be renamed. Would such renaming break anything if it do occur?
On 2017-12-15 12:47:00 (+0100), Phake Nick wrote:
But in the context of tz database, if in case such campaign have been launched and most media as well as other usages do switch over to new name, will tz database follow such rename? As I understand one of the principle in tz database zone name is that names act as key and thus won't easily be renamed. Would such renaming break anything if it do occur?
We can keep a link to the previous name of the timezone in backzone. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information
It is (perhaps) instructive to note that Wikipedia has debated the Kiev vs. Kyiv issue for the past 15 years, and done so rather strenulously. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/Naming_issue_Archive01 and other numbered archive pages reachable through the navigation arrow at the top of that page (for some reason it skips from 02 to 03), and there is also some discussion on the "regular" talk page and its archives, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kiev/Archive09 This issue is a little more difficult because the historical Kiev spelling is tied up in the Russia/Ukraine conflict. It's not simply a case of a neutral preference or change thereof. --jhawk@mit.edu John Hawkinson
On 12/15/2017 05:25 AM, John Hawkinson wrote:
This issue is a little more difficult because the historical Kiev spelling is tied up in the Russia/Ukraine conflict.
Yes, quite true. If Germany were fighting a war in the Czech republic, we might see similar patriotic requests to change Europe/Prague to Europe/Praha, since the English spelling "Prague" came via the German "Prag" rather than directly from the Czech "Praha" or from the old Slavic "Práh". In that case too, I would follow the lead of what English-language writers typically do. If they typically write "Prague", then Prague it is.
Hi, [sorry for OT, I just could not resist]
If Ukrainian people and Ukrainian government want people call the capital city as Kyiv instead of Kiev, Ukrainian government should probably launch a clear campaign sending this message to the world like how Czech government tell the world the country is named Czechia,
hm ... "Ukrainian people and Ukrainian government" vs "Czech government" ... good that you don't mention Czech people - nice if someone outside the country notices that Czech government does things independently on what people want :-) K. -- Karel Volný BaseOS QE - Daemons Red Hat Czech, Brno tel. +420 532294274 (RH: +420 532294111 ext. 8262074) :: "Never attribute to malice what can :: easily be explained by stupidity."
<<On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:56:42 +0000, "Clive D.W. Feather" <clive@davros.org> said:
The Oxford English Dictionary, which is about as close to an authority on the English language as you'll find, has 31 uses of the name Kiev and none of Kyiv. Several are for "chicken Kiev" or other similar dishes.
Note that the OED explicitly considers proper nouns to be out of scope, unless they develop unrelated senses or change parts of speech. Some other dictionaries (notable the American Heritage Dictionary) do include such names in their own right. -GAWollman
Garrett Wollman said:
The Oxford English Dictionary, which is about as close to an authority on the English language as you'll find, has 31 uses of the name Kiev and none of Kyiv. Several are for "chicken Kiev" or other similar dishes.
Note that the OED explicitly considers proper nouns to be out of scope, unless they develop unrelated senses or change parts of speech.
True, and it's Kiev that has developed those senses. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
<<On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:32:03 +0100, "Philip Paeps" <philip@trouble.is> said:
Note that we do not have a "Europe/Koebenhavn" or a "Europe/Lefkosia" - to pick two examples of transliterations of local names that are different from the names of the cities in English. We have a "Europe/Copenhagen" and the "Europe/Nicosia".
Contrast the case (which thankfully we do not have to deal with) of the capital city of the People's Republic of China. In English, it used to be called "Peking", and in fact in the name of the university and of the duck dish it still is. The PRC government made a concerted campaign to change the name used by English speakers to be "Beijing", which is a phonetic representation of the name of the city in Mandarin (putonghua). This has to a very large extent worked, and now most English texts say "Beijing" and not "Peking" (although many people still don't pronounce it "correctly" because the letters in hanyu pinyin don't have the same sound values as they do in English). However, in many languages *other than English*, the name of the city has not changed -- AFAIK it's still "Pékin" in French, for example. So the lesson here is that, if the Ukrainian people (or their government) earnestly want to change how the name of their capital city is written by English speakers, they're going to have to do a way more effective job at lobbying the people who actually shape how English speakers use words -- especially the mass media. The tz database is descriptive and lobbying its maintainers will not have the desired effect. -GAWollman
On Dec 15, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu> wrote:
<<On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:32:03 +0100, "Philip Paeps" <philip@trouble.is> said:
Note that we do not have a "Europe/Koebenhavn" or a "Europe/Lefkosia" - to pick two examples of transliterations of local names that are different from the names of the cities in English. We have a "Europe/Copenhagen" and the "Europe/Nicosia".
Contrast the case (which thankfully we do not have to deal with) of the capital city of the People's Republic of China. In English, it used to be called "Peking", and in fact in the name of the university and of the duck dish it still is. The PRC government made a concerted campaign to change the name used by English speakers to be "Beijing", which is a phonetic representation of the name of the city in Mandarin (putonghua).
"Peking" is the Wade-Giles encoding of the Chinese phonetics; "Beijing" is the encoding in the current PRC system. Both encode the same phonetics. The difference is that the encoding of Wade-Giles is very strange and misleading, for example using the letter p to encode the sound b (the sound p is encoded by p'). Since most people don't know the aberrations of Wade-Giles, they may be mislead into thinking that the name of that city has changed. This is not so, but I suppose the misunderstanding is excusable. paul
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017, at 14:27, Paul.Koning@dell.com wrote:
"Peking" is the Wade-Giles encoding of the Chinese phonetics;
The online Wade-Giles translator I found gives "Peiching", in fact. AIUI, Peking actually came indirectly via Portuguese and/oror French (which to my understanding have different values for "p" more closely resembling the Chinese sound in question), rather than being the result of a systematic transliteration. (Incidentally, the systematic transliteration of the Russian name for Kyiv is "Kiyev")
Since most people don't know the aberrations of Wade-Giles, they may be mislead into thinking that the name of that city has changed. This is not so, but I suppose the misunderstanding is excusable.
The name *in English*, which was neither before nor now pronounced in a way closely resembling the Chinese, has changed. As to the question of Kyiv itself... In googling for information on this, I did find the following claim at https://www.calvertjournal.com/features/show/4927: "The request by the Ukrainian government for Kyiv to become the standard English spelling has been successful to an extent, with the US Board on Geographic Names approving the spelling and the White House and UK Foreign Office, among others, using it." I think (if this is indeed the case), this is a strong argument for making the change. Incidentally, this is not without precedent. The following links all appear to be the result of similar "transliteration" changes. Link Asia/Ashgabat Asia/Ashkhabad Link Asia/Kolkata Asia/Calcutta Link Asia/Dhaka Asia/Dacca Link Asia/Kathmandu Asia/Katmandu Link Asia/Macau Asia/Macao Link Asia/Yangon Asia/Rangoon Link Asia/Thimphu Asia/Thimbu Link Asia/Ulaanbaatar Asia/Ulan_Bator Link Pacific/Pohnpei Pacific/Ponape Link Pacific/Chuuk Pacific/Truk
On 12/15/2017 12:07 PM, Random832 wrote:
this is not without precedent. The following links all appear to be the result of similar "transliteration" changes.
Sure, but as I recall we waited until common usage changed. When that happens for Kiev/Kyiv we can change it in the same way that we did for Dacca/Dhaka etc. Although government-sanctioned spelling is a significant part of this puzzle, it's not enough to overrule common usage outside government, and while we're in reasonable doubt we can leave things be.
Although government-sanctioned spelling is a significant part of this puzzle, it's not enough to overrule common usage outside government, and while we're in reasonable doubt we can leave things be.
well, maybe instead of own research on spellings, transliterations and news usage, we might use simple rule "rename when Wikipedia moves the article"? - the naming dispute there is running for about 15 yrs, and while I find some recent tz posts interesting, I doubt we can come up with something that wikipedians hadn't dealt with already K. -- Karel Volný BaseOS QE - Daemons Red Hat Czech, Brno tel. +420 532294274 (RH: +420 532294111 ext. 8262074) :: "Never attribute to malice what can :: easily be explained by stupidity."
Random832 said:
"The request by the Ukrainian government for Kyiv to become the standard English spelling has been successful to an extent, with the US Board on Geographic Names approving the spelling and the White House and UK Foreign Office, among others, using it."
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine uses Kyiv, though the map also has Kiev on it.
I think (if this is indeed the case), this is a strong argument for making the change.
It's evidence, though if common usage disagrees then it's not enough. For example, the BBC's web site uses both forms, but Kiev appears to be more common.
Incidentally, this is not without precedent. The following links all appear to be the result of similar "transliteration" changes. Link Asia/Ashgabat Asia/Ashkhabad Link Asia/Kolkata Asia/Calcutta Link Asia/Dhaka Asia/Dacca Link Asia/Kathmandu Asia/Katmandu Link Asia/Macau Asia/Macao Link Asia/Yangon Asia/Rangoon Link Asia/Thimphu Asia/Thimbu Link Asia/Ulaanbaatar Asia/Ulan_Bator Link Pacific/Pohnpei Pacific/Ponape Link Pacific/Chuuk Pacific/Truk
I don't recognize all of those, but I do recognize many and they're the forms used generally nowadays. Just as the city formerly known as Bangalore is now usually Bengaluru. By contrast, Moskva is still called Moscow by most English speakers. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
On 2017-12-15 15:07:36 (-0500), Random832 wrote:
As to the question of Kyiv itself...
In googling for information on this, I did find the following claim at https://www.calvertjournal.com/features/show/4927:
"The request by the Ukrainian government for Kyiv to become the standard English spelling has been successful to an extent, with the US Board on Geographic Names approving the spelling and the White House and UK Foreign Office, among others, using it."
I found that document when I did a search earlier but checking in the database of the US Board on Geographic Names, I found "Kiev" listed as the "conventional" spelling and "Kyiv" as "accepted". I was not able to find an authoritative document from the UK Foreign Office (and did not check the White House).
I think (if this is indeed the case), this is a strong argument for making the change.
It is a strong argument but I don't think it's strong enough. I would be a lot more convinced by style guides of a good number of English language publications adopting the new spelling. As pointed out earlier in this thread, this has been discussed (to exhaustion) on the English language Wikipedia talk page on Kiev (sic). While I'd be hesitant to consider Wikipedia as a reference on many (most) subjects, I think we can probably trust their judgement on what places are commonly named.
Incidentally, this is not without precedent. The following links all appear to be the result of similar "transliteration" changes. Link Asia/Ashgabat Asia/Ashkhabad Link Asia/Kolkata Asia/Calcutta Link Asia/Dhaka Asia/Dacca Link Asia/Kathmandu Asia/Katmandu Link Asia/Macau Asia/Macao Link Asia/Yangon Asia/Rangoon Link Asia/Thimphu Asia/Thimbu Link Asia/Ulaanbaatar Asia/Ulan_Bator Link Pacific/Pohnpei Pacific/Ponape Link Pacific/Chuuk Pacific/Truk
With the exceptions of Pohnpei and Chuuk (which I rarely encounter at all) and Yangon, I cannot remember the last time I encountered the old spellings of any of the places on this list. On the other hand, I encounter Kiev a lot more often than Kyiv (except in discussions on renaming it!). That's obviously a very subjective data point though. I do recall that tzdb changed the links only long after the "modern" names were undisputably in common use as opposed to when they were "officially accepted". I feel it would be prudent to stick to that precedent. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:19 PM, Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu> wrote:
<<On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:32:03 +0100, "Philip Paeps" <philip@trouble.is> said:
Note that we do not have a "Europe/Koebenhavn" or a "Europe/Lefkosia" - to pick two examples of transliterations of local names that are different from the names of the cities in English. We have a "Europe/Copenhagen" and the "Europe/Nicosia".
Contrast the case (which thankfully we do not have to deal with) of the capital city of the People's Republic of China. In English, it used to be called "Peking", and in fact in the name of the university and of the duck dish it still is. The PRC government made a concerted campaign to change the name used by English speakers to be "Beijing", which is a phonetic representation of the name of the city in Mandarin (putonghua). This has to a very large extent worked, and now most English texts say "Beijing" and not "Peking" (although many people still don't pronounce it "correctly" because the letters in hanyu pinyin don't have the same sound values as they do in English). However, in many languages *other than English*, the name of the city has not changed -- AFAIK it's still "Pékin" in French, for example.
Note that the name in Chinese ("Northern Capitol" ) did not change - this was not politics so much as an attempt to spur the adoption of a new transliteration scheme. Peiping = Peking = Beijing in the original. Regards Marshall
So the lesson here is that, if the Ukrainian people (or their government) earnestly want to change how the name of their capital city is written by English speakers, they're going to have to do a way more effective job at lobbying the people who actually shape how English speakers use words -- especially the mass media. The tz database is descriptive and lobbying its maintainers will not have the desired effect.
-GAWollman
I searched "(kiev OR kyiv) site:____" with various English-language news sites on Google News, and sorted each result by date to get a recent article which referred specifically to the Ukrainian capital: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/opinion/mikheil-saakashvi li-ukraine-russia.html 2017-12-15: "After students were beaten in Kiev’s central square…" http://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/news/tn-wknd-et-kuz in-20171124-story.html 2017-11-24: "…knew it was time to leave his home of Kiev, Ukraine." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/corr uption-makes-ukraine-even-more-vulnerable-to-russia/2017/12/ 14/5c0e3122-df6a-11e7-bbd0-9dfb2e37492a_story.html 2017-12-14: "Kiev has been the scene of a somewhat farcical drama this month…" http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/24/politics/paul-manafort-russia/index.html 2017-11-25: "…obtained from a government source in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev." https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/ukraine-s-lgbtq-sold iers-hope-their-service-will-change-hearts-n822291 2017-11-28: "…March for Equality, an LGBTQ event in Kiev…" http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/15/reporters-notebook-p utins-talk-thon-experience-like-no-other.html 2017-12-15: "…don’t want what has happened in Kiev to happen in their cities." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/15/gerard-pique- sometimes-criticised-say-not-worried/ 2017-12-15: "…the final of the Champions League in Kiev in May…" https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/08/ukrainian-poli ce-recapture-former-georgian-president-saakashvili 2017-12-08: "…the opposition leader had been detained by police in Kiev…" http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42289481 2017-12-09: "…was dragged from his home in Kiev and arrested." https://news.sky.com/story/ex-georgia-president-mikheil-saak ashvili-broken-free-from-police-custody-11157379 2017-12-05: "…an apartment in the capital Kiev…" http://www.smh.com.au/world/paul-manafort-and-russian-collea gue-ghostwrote-editorial-special-counsel-20171204-gzyrbx.html 2017-12-05: "…ran Manafort's office in Kiev…" http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-06/ukraine-protesters-fre es-former-georgian-president-after-arrest/9230676 2017-12-05: "The turmoil in Kiev is just the latest challenge for the Ukrainian Government…" Indeed, it seems these major English-language news outlets almost universally use "Kiev" to this day, except when the place name is used as part of a different proper noun, such as when referring to the *Kyiv Post* <https://www.kyivpost.com/>. It's even in the BBC News style guide to use "Kiev" and not "Kyiv": http://www.bbc.co.uk/academy/journalism/article/art20130702112133537 Although several of these outlets have written articles on the differences in orthography over the years, until there is enough common usage of "Kyiv" in the English language that a significant number of these outlets decide to switch, it is reasonable to say that "Kiev" remains the generally-accepted English spelling despite certain governmental recognitions of "Kyiv". But this is not the venue for that discussion. -- Tim Parenti On 15 December 2017 at 14:19, Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu> wrote:
<<On Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:32:03 +0100, "Philip Paeps" <philip@trouble.is> said:
Note that we do not have a "Europe/Koebenhavn" or a "Europe/Lefkosia" - to pick two examples of transliterations of local names that are different from the names of the cities in English. We have a "Europe/Copenhagen" and the "Europe/Nicosia".
Contrast the case (which thankfully we do not have to deal with) of the capital city of the People's Republic of China. In English, it used to be called "Peking", and in fact in the name of the university and of the duck dish it still is. The PRC government made a concerted campaign to change the name used by English speakers to be "Beijing", which is a phonetic representation of the name of the city in Mandarin (putonghua). This has to a very large extent worked, and now most English texts say "Beijing" and not "Peking" (although many people still don't pronounce it "correctly" because the letters in hanyu pinyin don't have the same sound values as they do in English). However, in many languages *other than English*, the name of the city has not changed -- AFAIK it's still "Pékin" in French, for example.
So the lesson here is that, if the Ukrainian people (or their government) earnestly want to change how the name of their capital city is written by English speakers, they're going to have to do a way more effective job at lobbying the people who actually shape how English speakers use words -- especially the mass media. The tz database is descriptive and lobbying its maintainers will not have the desired effect.
-GAWollman
On Fri, Dec 15, 2017, at 04:14, gocdoms gocdoms wrote:
In polish Warszawa, English - Warsaw - OK. In Poland Latin letters (a, b, c, d, e...). No need to transliterate for international presentation. In Ukraine Cyrillic letters (а, б, в, г, ґ, д, е, є, ж, з, ...) It is different. For international presentation You need transliterate Cyrillic letters to Latin letters.
The example of Moscow (not Moskva) proves the point that you're ignoring that people have tried to make - having a native language with a different alphabet does not mean English is obliged to use the transliteration. And anyway, the transliteration of Киев is Kiyev.
Random832 wrote:
And anyway, the transliteration of Киев is Kiyev.
Oh! That's something else where there can be disagreement! Other Romanizations of the Russian Киев include Kijev, Kiyef, Kieff, Kijeff, Kiyeff. The Encyclopædia Britannica had "Kieff, Kiyeff, or Kiev" in its scholarly-but-dated 1902 edition, whereas the popular and freshly-updated 1911 edition had "Kiev, Kieff, or Kiyeff". There is similar disagreement for the Ukrainian Київ. "Kyiv" is the Ukrainian government's transliteration, codified in 1996. However, in non-governmental sources the и can be transliterated to y or ȳ or i, and the ї (U+0457 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER YI) can be transliterated to ji, yi, or ï (U+00EF LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS), and I've probably missed some options. To top it off, none of these Romanizations in English are at all close to the common pronunciation in Ukrainian, namely [ˈkɪjiu̯] (IPA), as there is nothing like an English "v" (or "f") in Ukrainian pronunciation. Instead, the pronunciation trails off with a demure "oo" sound in English, and "Kuiyu" is a much more-accurate Anglicization than any of the above. Here's the Wikipedia sound file, for those who would like to do as the Kuiyuvians do: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Uk-Київ.ogg
On 2017-12-17 11:34, Paul Eggert wrote:
Random832 wrote:
And anyway, the transliteration of Киев is Kiyev.
Oh! That's something else where there can be disagreement! Other Romanizations of the Russian Киев include Kijev, Kiyef, Kieff, Kijeff, Kiyeff. The Encyclopædia Britannica had "Kieff, Kiyeff, or Kiev" in its scholarly-but-dated 1902 edition, whereas the popular and freshly-updated 1911 edition had "Kiev, Kieff, or Kiyeff".
There is similar disagreement for the Ukrainian Київ. "Kyiv" is the Ukrainian government's transliteration, codified in 1996. However, in non-governmental sources the и can be transliterated to y or ȳ or i, and the ї (U+0457 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER YI) can be transliterated to ji, yi, or ï (U+00EF LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS), and I've probably missed some options.
To top it off, none of these Romanizations in English are at all close to the common pronunciation in Ukrainian, namely [ˈkɪjiu̯] (IPA), as there is nothing like an English "v" (or "f") in Ukrainian pronunciation. Instead, the pronunciation trails off with a demure "oo" sound in English, and "Kuiyu" is a much more-accurate Anglicization than any of the above. Here's the Wikipedia sound file, for those who would like to do as the Kuiyuvians do:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Uk-Київ.ogg
Interesting notes on the name(s) in Ukrainian and English below, from a Canadian-Ukrainian organization and author, with only minor anti-Russian bias. TL;DR: The author uses and prefers Kyiv when referring to the city (as below) in technical academic or scholarly contexts, but prefers Kiev for general English usage and comprehension. The Latin spelling Kiev was derived from the Old Ukrainian Cyrillic and Church Slavonic spelling used for about 1000 years. Kiev has been used in English and other Latin languages including old maps for over 400 years. Russian pronounciation ends with -f, so Latin spellings of the Russian end with -f, not -v. Kyiv has been used in modern Ukrainian Cyrillic for about 100 years. Kyiv in Old and Modern Ukrainian http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-1/ Kiev or Kyiv? http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-2/ There is some argument on linguistic lists/groups that the name may have Iranian or Turkic origins, as the founding stories seem legendary or mythical. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
On 18/12/17 07:27, Brian Inglis wrote:
Kiev or Kyiv? http://www.infoukes.com/faq/kyiv-2/
There is some argument on linguistic lists/groups that the name may have Iranian or Turkic origins, as the founding stories seem legendary or mythical.
My own preferred reference for names is still geonames, and while Kiev is still tagged as the preferred name against entry 703448, 'hadjek' changed the reference name from Kiev to Kyiv only in July this year although there has been an occasional edit war using Київ back in 2006 to 2007 but the majority of changes are to Alternate names ... with now there are several versions in some languages but only Kiev flagged as 'preferred'. The bottom line is that there is no formal central database of names one can use as a primary reference? http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=128141 is a little at odds with http://www.geonames.org/703448/kyiv.html with both are currently using Kyiv as the primary reference but giving Kiev as the preferred name. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
participants (14)
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Brian Inglis -
Clive D.W. Feather -
Garrett Wollman -
gocdoms gocdoms -
John Hawkinson -
Karel Volný -
Lester Caine -
Marshall Eubanks -
Paul Eggert -
Paul.Koning＠dell.com -
Phake Nick -
Philip Paeps -
Random832 -
Tim Parenti