Re: [tz] Change Request: Europe/Kiev to Europe/Kyiv

I do not think we have handled this well; we have not given Victor Perov a good answer. Indeed, to some extent we've made it a "runaround." We can do better. We should take the time to write up a good lengthy explanation of the issues ("boilerplate"), because this a really important issue of concern to many people in the world and the project has indeed thought about it pretty carefully. Dismissing the inquiries because they are repetitive makes it seem like we haven't, and that unnecessarily upsets peopl. Victor Perev: I don't have time for a full write-up right now, but please consult the archives of the tz list (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/ or perhaps https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amm.icann.org%2Fpipermail%2Ftz%2F+kyiv which returns 203 results). The tz project is very conservative in its judgment for when the predominant English spelling of a city has changed, and so far the project has judged that Kiev is still preferred. We discussed it when major English newspapers and style guides changed from Kiev to Kyiv last year (prompted by the US presidential impeachment, which lead to a lot of discussion about Kyiv in America), and we will probably continue to discuss it as time goes on. But we've thought about it and discussed it a lot. The answers you got don't explain that, and that means we have not done a good a job as we should have. Sorry about that. In particular, I think Brian Inglis's answer was actually incorrect in a way that really matters ("Kiev is the correct English spelling"). There are multiple correct English spellings. It used to be that Kiev was the only one, but Kyiv is gaining popularity more and more. Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote on Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 18:19:08 EDT in <cefc7f01-a3e9-f2a4-9ab9-5288147f994a@cs.ucla.edu>:
Thanks for bringing that to the mailing list (if I could shut off GitHub pull requests I would).
Although you cannot do so, we can handle them a little bit better. Please see https://docs.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/creating-a-pul... You can create a template that explains to a would-be pull request submitter than pull requests will be closed and the project uses the mailing list for development discussions. ("I understand that the tz project does not use pull requests on github, and that if I enter a pull request here, it will be closed and I will be directed to send email to tz@iana.org.") For the particular case of regular, recurring issues, it may be worth while to keep one of #15, #26, and #27 open and mark the others as a duplicate of it, so that it is easier for newcomers to understand that this issue has been carefully considered and is not a simple oversight. https://github.com/eggert/tz/pulls?q=kiev Also, not to pick on Brian (again), but if the project policy is not to use github pull requests, it's not great to respond to pull requests on their substance, because it bifurcates the discussion and makes it seem like we actually do use pull requests ("except when we don't"). So what seems like a helpful thing may not be. -- jhawk@alum.mit.edu John Hawkinson

On 8/15/20 3:52 PM, John Hawkinson wrote:
I do not think we have handled this well; we have not given Victor Perov a good answer. Indeed, to some extent we've made it a "runaround." We can do better.
We should take the time to write up a good lengthy explanation of the issues ("boilerplate")
Hmm, well, when others send me boilerplate text about other things, I feel like *I'm* being given the runaround. I prefer an individualized response. Admittedly this issue has become repetitive on this mailing list, and perhaps I should just respond privately (boilerplate or not) and note on the list that I responded.
Please see https://docs.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/creating-a-pul...
When I tried those instructions they didn't work for me. The green button that would have created a new file .github/pull_request_template.md never became highlighted. Also, if those instructions had succeeded would they have created a file .github/pull_request_template.md in the tzdb development repository? If so, I'd rather not do that as I don't want tzdb development to depend on GitHub-specific features. Likewise for the idea of maintaining a GitHub pull-request history; I don't want to get into the business of maintaining or depending on GitHub-specific features. If this sort of thing continues to be a hassle there's a simple fix, which is to move the development repository to somewhere other than GitHub that does not insist on my babysitting pull requests.

"Paul" == Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
Paul> If this sort of thing continues to be a hassle there's a simple Paul> fix, which is to move the development repository to somewhere Paul> other than GitHub that does not insist on my babysitting pull Paul> requests. There exists a repo-lockdown bot service which auto-responds to and auto-closes PRs; postgresql uses it on the github.com/postgres/postgres mirror repository. See github.com/apps/repo-lockdown -- Andrew.

Hello, I hope you are all doing well. Two years ago, when I wrote this email I was hoping to get a meaningful answer why a very simple PR got rejected. Instead, I got a bunch of emails complaining about "babysitting pull requests". For your information, PR was done inline with README recommendations of the repo. I found it disrespectful and decided to abandon all of my good intentions to bring the correct naming at all. A bit of useful information that I got that day was that Kyiv is not "enough" popular.. Doing the same "sanity" search today as you @eggert did 2y ago, I can see 98M for Kyiv and 97M for Kiev (google.com, UK). Is it enough now? Could we return to my pull request this week? Kind regards, Viktor On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 09:29, Andrew Gierth <andrew@tao11.riddles.org.uk> wrote:
"Paul" == Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
Paul> If this sort of thing continues to be a hassle there's a simple
Paul> fix, which is to move the development repository to somewhere
Paul> other than GitHub that does not insist on my babysitting pull
Paul> requests.
There exists a repo-lockdown bot service which auto-responds to and
auto-closes PRs; postgresql uses it on the github.com/postgres/postgres
mirror repository. See github.com/apps/repo-lockdown
--
Andrew.

On 3/16/22 16:18, Victor Perov wrote:
Two years ago, when I wrote this email I was hoping to get a meaningful answer why a very simple PR got rejected. Instead, I got a bunch of emails complaining about "babysitting pull requests".
Apologies if you felt that comment was directed at you. It was intended to be directed at GitHub, which forces a particular development model that is not appropriate for some projects (tzdb being one of them).
Doing the same "sanity" search today as you @eggert did 2y ago, I can see 98M for Kyiv and 97M for Kiev (google.com, UK). Is it enough now?
That's getting closer, yes. When the time-change uproar dies down (Palestine, maybe Iran?) it may be a good time to revisit this.

On 17 Mar 2022, at 00:13, Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Doing the same "sanity" search today as you @eggert did 2y ago, I can see 98M for Kyiv and 97M for Kiev (google.com, UK). Is it enough now?
That's getting closer, yes. When the time-change uproar dies down (Palestine, maybe Iran?) it may be a good time to revisit this.
I've been wondering that myself. Anyone following recent events on the BBC news and websites will be in no doubt about the spelling pronunciation. I think all the UK press is now using "Kyiv" as well. Even the local supermarkets are changing: the chicken and garlic dish has been renamed "Chicken Kyiv" (well, Sainsbury's and the Coop, I think).

On Thu, 17 Mar 2022, John Haxby via tz wrote:
I've been wondering that myself. Anyone following recent events on the BBC news and websites will be in no doubt about the spelling pronunciation. I think all the UK press is now using "Kyiv" as well.
Not that CNN is definitive, but _most_ of their reports are now using Kyiv. Their web-site seems to have completely switched, while their on-air broadcasts are at least 90%. +--------------------+--------------------------+----------------------+ | Paul Goyette | PGP Key fingerprint: | E-mail addresses: | | (Retired) | FA29 0E3B 35AF E8AE 6651 | paul@whooppee.com | | Software Developer | 0786 F758 55DE 53BA 7731 | pgoyette@netbsd.org | | & Network Engineer | | pgoyette99@gmail.com | +--------------------+--------------------------+----------------------+

On Mar 17, 2022, at 11:15, John Haxby via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
I've been wondering that myself. Anyone following recent events on the BBC news and websites will be in no doubt about the spelling pronunciation. I think all the UK press is now using "Kyiv" as well.
Even the local supermarkets are changing: the chicken and garlic dish has been renamed "Chicken Kyiv" (well, Sainsbury's and the Coop, I think).
FWIW, The New York Times (widely considered the ‘newspaper of record’ in the US) has been using ‘Kyiv’ for some time now. While I’m Not A Fan of changing IDs just because of drifts in usage in the popular culture, the precedent has already been set WRT tzdb —e.g. Asia/Kolkata. I think we’ve hit the tipping point here as well. Cheers! |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer | | | Paravel Systems | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | A room without books is like a body without a soul. | | | | -- Cicero | |---------------------------------------------------------------------|

I wholeheartedly agree. It's time we switch the Zone entry to Europe/Kyiv. We can have Europe/Kiev be a Link in the backward file. Paul - PLEASE make this change now. From your own commentary in the europe file:
Admittedly English-language spelling of Ukrainian names is controversial, and some day "Kyiv" may become substantially more popular in English; in the meantime, stick with the traditional English "Kiev" as that means less disruption for our users.
We have reached that day. Kyiv is substantially more popular in English, and continuing to use Kiev is now MORE disruptive, as it makes many of our users appear to be friendly to Russian aggression, and makes us continue to have this debate. -Matt On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 8:29 AM Fred Gleason via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On Mar 17, 2022, at 11:15, John Haxby via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
I've been wondering that myself. Anyone following recent events on the BBC news and websites will be in no doubt about the spelling pronunciation. I think all the UK press is now using "Kyiv" as well.
Even the local supermarkets are changing: the chicken and garlic dish has been renamed "Chicken Kyiv" (well, Sainsbury's and the Coop, I think).
FWIW, The New York Times (widely considered the ‘newspaper of record’ in the US) has been using ‘Kyiv’ for some time now.
While I’m Not A Fan of changing IDs just because of drifts in usage in the popular culture, the precedent has already been set WRT tzdb —e.g. Asia/Kolkata. I think we’ve hit the tipping point here as well.
Cheers!
|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer | | | Paravel Systems | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | A room without books is like a body without a soul. | | | | -- Cicero | |---------------------------------------------------------------------|

Matt Johnson-Pint wrote in <CAKxAwDom9DMFYYTHV-R43GY0sf-C_0z=JpnhSv07J4523mkG3g@mail.gmail.com>: |I wholeheartedly agree. It's time we switch the Zone entry to |Europe/Kyiv. We can have Europe/Kiev be a Link in the backward file. | |Paul - PLEASE make this change now. From your own commentary in the europe |file: | |> Admittedly English-language spelling of Ukrainian names is controversial, |and some day "Kyiv" may become substantially more popular in English; in |the meantime, stick with the traditional English "Kiev" as that means less |disruption for our users. | |We have reached that day. Kyiv is substantially more popular in English, |and continuing to use Kiev is now MORE disruptive, as it makes many of |our users appear to be friendly to Russian aggression, and makes us |continue to have this debate. I know it is terribly off-topic and i am not defending this war. But in Donbass there was an eight year long war, and Human Rights Watch accused the non-Russian side of using cluster bombs etc. against Russians in 2015 plus. There were ~14000 death human beings on both sides in the last eight years, and the one and only Russian point in the Minsk protocol, asking the population of Donbass in a democratic vote on which side of the border they want to live, was never fullfilled, not even to an extent. We are talking about three million people here. And even though all (non-Ukraine) parties tried to get that done, including to a large extend Germany and the by then minister of foreign state and now president Steinmeier. I really wish anyone would talk about the ~1.3 million death human beings in Irak, Afghanistan and Pakistan, as well as the millions of people starving in Yemen due to western supported warfare. ~1.3 Million, and Germany was involved! By Jove!!! Thank you. (On topic i have nothing to say, i do not oppose the name of course, especially if there will remain a link.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)

Sorry .. Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20220317213743.oWVJv%steffen@sdaoden.eu>: |Matt Johnson-Pint wrote in | <CAKxAwDom9DMFYYTHV-R43GY0sf-C_0z=JpnhSv07J4523mkG3g@mail.gmail.com>: ... |I really wish anyone would talk about the ~1.3 million death |human beings in Irak, Afghanistan and Pakistan, as well as the |millions of people starving in Yemen due to western supported |warfare. ~1.3 Million, and Germany was involved! By Jove!!! Ever since yesterday my stomach screams one of the receivers is thinking the numbers are way too high, therefore this. Two things, first of all, why don't you ask then. And second, this is a fall-out of the problems in the western world, all the institutions including UNO and even the noble price are misused for political reasons for no good, thousands of little screw drivers turn the truth a little bit so it fits their bill more. Heck, our society more and more rests on the hollow ground of lies and misinformation! These numbers are from a meta study from the IIPNW Germany / PSR / PGS divisions of the IPPNW (International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War), it is called "Body Count", they collect studies taken in the ten years after the start of the (so-called) war against terror. The covered studies include Lancet (John Hopkins University) and IFHS of WHO, and several others. The range spans widely, but, in fact, even the WHO study gives a much lower number than for example Lancet, but that number only seems to cover a small portion of the overall number of deads that the WHO study agrees with: if you do look at the _overall_ number of deaths, then you see a factor two increasement of the number of deaths ever since March 2003, almost as much as Lancet, which gave factor 2.4. If you look at this overall count, you end up with the numbers i gave. Of course, if i would be a jiddish comedian from New York i would possibly say that the very, very large difference in deaths has to be attributed to a misinformation of the Iraqi people, they thought they have to eat at McDonalds now that the Americans are coming, and preferred leaving to a different world. (These numbers do not include missing persons, the meta study refers to the ICMP (International Commission on Missing Persons), which estimated the number of missing persons in Iraq to be in the range of 250.000 and 1.000.000 people. And they also do not include illnesses and misforcaused by poisining due to weapons, for example ammunition with radioactive materials.) |Thank you. |(On topic i have nothing to say, i do not oppose the name of |course, especially if there will remain a link.) In Germany Kiew really is dominant as far as i see, Kyiw sounds like "kiff" (smoking joints, "i" is spoken like english "e".), i do not know whether that will make it. But, IANA TZ DB names are not for end users anyway :) Have a nice weekend, if you can. Ciao and greetings from Germany, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)

Regarding pull requests, you might consider setting up this GitHub Action: https://github.com/marketplace/actions/repo-lockdown On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 5:13 PM Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 3/16/22 16:18, Victor Perov wrote:
Two years ago, when I wrote this email I was hoping to get a meaningful answer why a very simple PR got rejected. Instead, I got a bunch of emails complaining about "babysitting pull requests".
Apologies if you felt that comment was directed at you. It was intended to be directed at GitHub, which forces a particular development model that is not appropriate for some projects (tzdb being one of them).
Doing the same "sanity" search today as you @eggert did 2y ago, I can see 98M for Kyiv and 97M for Kiev (google.com, UK). Is it enough now?
That's getting closer, yes. When the time-change uproar dies down (Palestine, maybe Iran?) it may be a good time to revisit this.

On 3/17/22 11:05, Matt Johnson-Pint wrote:
Regarding pull requests, you might consider setting up this GitHub Action: https://github.com/marketplace/actions/repo-lockdown
That would require changing the development repository to have files specific to GitHub, right? Other things being equal, it's better to stay portable and not rely on or promote GitHub-specific features. If the GitHub problem were a serious one it would be worth changing the development repository even in a nonportable way; however, this problem seems relatively minor.

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 18:53, John Hawkinson <jhawk@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
You can create a template that explains to a would-be pull request submitter than pull requests will be closed and the project uses the mailing list for development discussions.
Indeed, that was my explicit intent behind suggesting a CONTRIBUTING file in August 2014, but it seems Github has since deprioritized how it displays this to would-be-first-time-contributors. https://docs.github.com/en/github/building-a-strong-community/setting-guidel... One could argue that the mere presence of a CONTRIBUTING should require new contributors to check a box acknowledging that they understand the project's guidelines — which in our case explicitly says "don't do this" — but alas, this isn't the case. -- Tim Parenti
participants (10)
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Andrew Gierth
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Fred Gleason
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John Hawkinson
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John Haxby
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Matt Johnson-Pint
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Paul Eggert
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Paul Goyette
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Steffen Nurpmeso
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Tim Parenti
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Victor Perov