Request for Standardization of Kyiv Time Zone Naming
Dear IANA Team, I'm reaching out on behalf of our team at Tutorpeers (Tutorpeers.com) I'm reaching out to address a significant concern related to the naming of Ukraine's capital in time zone databases. At present, there are two spellings in use: "Kiev" and "Kyiv." The latter, "Kyiv," is the correct Ukrainian spelling and pronunciation, which honors the country's sovereignty and the preferences of its people. The use of "Kiev," which is derived from the Russian language, has become increasingly problematic, especially considering Russia's ongoing aggression against Ukraine. This issue hits close to home for me, not only because of my Ukrainian roots but also due to the feedback we've received from our Ukrainian user base. Numerous customers have reached out to us, expressing discomfort and disapproval of the "Kiev" spelling, given the current circumstances. Our platform has taken a clear stance on this issue, and we urge IANA to consider the implications of language and to update its time zone databases accordingly. By standardizing the "Kyiv" spelling, we can collectively show support for the Ukrainian community and respect their cultural and national identity. After speaking to your colleague Candice Montoya I was pleased to learn that the spelling change to "Europe/Kyiv" has already been implemented in the Time Zone Database as of August 2022. This update is much appreciated and reflects a positive and respectful acknowledgment of the correct naming convention. However, I've noticed that the previous spelling, "Kiev" still appears in some instances. Please confirm if this is intended for backward compatibility with existing systems. And if so, is there a planned timeline for its eventual deprecation in favor of the updated "Kyiv" spelling? Understanding the strategy for phasing out the old spelling would be incredibly helpful for our team and user community as we navigate these changes and ensure we provide the most current and accurate information. Thank you once again for your attention to this matter. Regards, Dmytro Project Coordinator at Tutorpeers
Hi Dmytro - The IANA Time Zone Database switched <https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/d1ce7788d47a00c2c0f233f96c3106d95883be0e/N...> to use Europe/Kyiv in Release Release 2022b in August 2022. The deprecated name for this time zone, Europe/Kiev, remains in TZDB only as a Link <https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/d1ce7788d47a00c2c0f233f96c3106d95883be0e/b...> to the new name. However, as you've observed, changes in TZDB are sometimes slow to arrive in different OSs and programming platforms. In particular, many platforms consume TZDB indirectly via the Unicode ICU native library, which in turn uses data in Unicode CLDR <https://github.com/unicode-org/cldr/blob/dace6c6b5672cbc70d6135f9ad82107b591...> to determine which IANA time zone identifiers are valid. Specifically, they typically use the TimeZone::getCanonicalID <https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/classicu_1_1Tim...> in C++ (or its Java equivalent) to resolve deprecated IDs (like Asia/Ulan_Bator) to their corresponding primary ID like Asia/Ulaanbaatar. This ICU API always returns the first ID listed in CLDR. For example, see the line below from the latest CLDR timezone.xml <https://github.com/unicode-org/cldr/blob/dace6c6b5672cbc70d6135f9ad82107b591...> : <type name="mnuln" description="Ulaanbaatar (Ulan Bator), Mongolia" alias="Asia/Ulaanbaatar Asia/Ulan_Bator"/> ICU and CLDR, for sensible reasons to avoid breaking existing applications, never change the ID returned by TimeZone::getCanonicalID <https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/classicu_1_1Tim...>. So even though some deprecations happened long ago in TZDB, like Asia/Calcutta => Asia/Kolkata, ICU still reports the old ID (like Asia/Calcutta) in TimeZone::getCanonicalID <https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/classicu_1_1Tim...> because CLDR lists it first in the list: <type name="inccu" description="Kolkata, India" alias="Asia/Calcutta Asia/Kolkata" iana="Asia/Kolkata"/> You'll notice that this line has an iana attribute, which (as you'd guess from its name) communicates the ID that is the current ID in TZDB, even if Asia/Calcutta is still first in the list of IDs in the alias attribute. This iana attribute is new, introduced in CLDR 44 <https://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads/cldr-44> that was only released a few weeks ago. This new attribute powers the new ICU TimeZone::getIanaID <https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/classicu_1_1Tim...> API which was released in ICU 74.1 <https://icu.unicode.org/download/74> (see this JIRA ticket <https://unicode-org.atlassian.net/browse/ICU-22452>) which was also released a few weeks ago on 31-10-2023. This new API finally provides the ability for ICU client apps (like Google Chrome, Apple Safari, and Node.js) to be able to return the most up-to-date IANA IDs. As you'd expect, the same iana attribute has been added <https://github.com/unicode-org/cldr/blob/dace6c6b5672cbc70d6135f9ad82107b591...> for Kyiv's time zone: <type name="uaiev" description="Kyiv, Ukraine" alias="Europe/Kiev Europe/Kyiv Europe/Zaporozhye Europe/Uzhgorod" iana="Europe/Kyiv"/> As soon as ICU clients switch over to use the new TimeZone::getIanaID <https://unicode-org.github.io/icu-docs/apidoc/released/icu4c/classicu_1_1Tim...> API, you will see Europe/Kyiv being returned as you'd expect. That said, I'm not sure when Chrome and Safari (or, more specifically, their ECMAScript engines V8 and JavaScriptCore) will switch over to the new API. But I'd expect it to happen sometime in 2024. Thanks for asking about this important issue! Justin Grant (I'm part of the team defining ECMAScript's Temporal <https://github.com/tc39/proposal-temporal> date/time API and I've been working with CLDR and ICU to fix this problem you reported) On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 9:17 PM Dmytro Shynkarenko via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Dear IANA Team,
I'm reaching out on behalf of our team at Tutorpeers (Tutorpeers.com)
I'm reaching out to address a significant concern related to the naming of Ukraine's capital in time zone databases. At present, there are two spellings in use: "Kiev" and "Kyiv." The latter, "Kyiv," is the correct Ukrainian spelling and pronunciation, which honors the country's sovereignty and the preferences of its people.
The use of "Kiev," which is derived from the Russian language, has become increasingly problematic, especially considering Russia's ongoing aggression against Ukraine. This issue hits close to home for me, not only because of my Ukrainian roots but also due to the feedback we've received from our Ukrainian user base. Numerous customers have reached out to us, expressing discomfort and disapproval of the "Kiev" spelling, given the current circumstances.
Our platform has taken a clear stance on this issue, and we urge IANA to consider the implications of language and to update its time zone databases accordingly. By standardizing the "Kyiv" spelling, we can collectively show support for the Ukrainian community and respect their cultural and national identity.
After speaking to your colleague Candice Montoya I was pleased to learn that the spelling change to "Europe/Kyiv" has already been implemented in the Time Zone Database as of August 2022. This update is much appreciated and reflects a positive and respectful acknowledgment of the correct naming convention.
However, I've noticed that the previous spelling, "Kiev" still appears in some instances. Please confirm if this is intended for backward compatibility with existing systems. And if so, is there a planned timeline for its eventual deprecation in favor of the updated "Kyiv" spelling?
Understanding the strategy for phasing out the old spelling would be incredibly helpful for our team and user community as we navigate these changes and ensure we provide the most current and accurate information.
Thank you once again for your attention to this matter.
Regards, Dmytro Project Coordinator at Tutorpeers
On 2023-11-10 01:47, Dmytro Shynkarenko via tz wrote:
I'm reaching out on behalf of our team at Tutorpeers (Tutorpeers.com)
I'm reaching out to address a significant concern related to the naming of Ukraine's capital in time zone databases. At present, there are two spellings in use: "Kiev" and "Kyiv." The latter, "Kyiv," is the correct Ukrainian spelling and pronunciation, which honors the country's sovereignty and the preferences of its people.
The use of "Kiev," which is derived from the Russian language, has become increasingly problematic, especially considering Russia's ongoing aggression against Ukraine. This issue hits close to home for me, not only because of my Ukrainian roots but also due to the feedback we've received from our Ukrainian user base. Numerous customers have reached out to us, expressing discomfort and disapproval of the "Kiev" spelling, given the current circumstances.
Our platform has taken a clear stance on this issue, and we urge IANA to consider the implications of language and to update its time zone databases accordingly. By standardizing the "Kyiv" spelling, we can collectively show support for the Ukrainian community and respect their cultural and national identity.
After speaking to your colleague Candice Montoya I was pleased to learn that the spelling change to "Europe/Kyiv" has already been implemented in the Time Zone Database as of August 2022. This update is much appreciated and reflects a positive and respectful acknowledgment of the correct naming convention.
However, I've noticed that the previous spelling, "Kiev" still appears in some instances. Please confirm if this is intended for backward compatibility with existing systems. And if so, is there a planned timeline for its eventual deprecation in favor of the updated "Kyiv" spelling?
Understanding the strategy for phasing out the old spelling would be incredibly helpful for our team and user community as we navigate these changes and ensure we provide the most current and accurate information.
The tz project provides mechanism, but does not set policy, which is decided by each downstream system and software package, which includes their own selection from this *public domain* software and data. That includes almost every single OS, DB, programming language, communication, or date/time using software, from almost every vendor and organization, on almost every system, on almost every device, on the planet. Most software vendors and organizations favour consistency, familiarity, and stability for their users, which includes not breaking whatever they currently have running on their systems, whether it is a super-computer cluster, server, desktop, laptop, phone, watch, or credit card sized computer. There are also forks of this project data, for which that is paramount, skipping changes made over the years, as do some downstream distributors of the software and data, which is freely available to all to download over the internet. Each OS distribution, edition, and flavour of each OS and software package using the tz data may set different policies depending on their goals. It is likely that the backward compatibility link or zone for Kiev will remain on many systems and in much software for the conceivable future, and will never disappear from systems and software which prize backward compatibility. It is also likely that many Ukrainian organizations will retain the well known English spelling for a long time, for the practical reason that they may become inaccessible or invisible if they change it, as most English speakers and businesses have no awareness of, desire, or need to comply with Ukrainian wishes regarding transliteration, as they have a perfectly good spelling they have been using for centuries. See for example the global public suffix list, and the Ukrainian CC TLD https://cctld.ua/ -> https://www.hostmaster.ua/ where https://www.hostmaster.ua/news/?stat202309 shows kyiv.ua gaining popularity on par with kiev.ua, but the CC TLD and registrars still support domains and registration under kiev.ua, and many with other legacy spellings, see also policy links from 2LD web page https://www.hostmaster.ua/2ld/ which are owned by registrars for which these are business assets, some worth millions of ₴, also some domains registered under these 2LD names are also likely worth ₴ millions, unlikely to be changed or thrown away for the exercise of eliminating old spellings to favour newer Ukrainian transliterations. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry [Most English speakers similarly do not care what e.g. Italians and other nationalities call their countries, regions, or cities, despite substantial tourism: they will continue to use the English names for those locations given centuries ago for centuries into the future.]
On 2023-11-10 00:47, Dmytro Shynkarenko via tz wrote:
the previous spelling, "Kiev" still appears in some instances. Please confirm if this is intended for backward compatibility with existing systems. And if so, is there a planned timeline for its eventual deprecation in favor of the updated "Kyiv" spelling?
Yes, "Europe/Kiev" is present for backward compatibility. The name is already deprecated, as it's in TZDB's optional "backward" file.[1] Although TZDB users need not install this file and we don't recommend using the names it defines, downstream users typically install the file anyway, as they value compatibility more than being up-to-date. PS. In looking for "Kiev" in the TZDB source I found two instances in comments that I think nowadays are more likely to cause confusion than cure it. I installed the attached patch to try to address this. [1]: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/eggert/tz/main/backward
participants (4)
-
Brian Inglis -
Dmytro Shynkarenko -
Justin Grant -
Paul Eggert