Change Request: Europe/Kiev to Europe/Kyiv
The history of timezones has some existing cases where a specific timezone has been renamed. For example, the *Asia/Calcutta* timezone has been deemed obsolete and replaced by *Asia/Kolkata*. In Ukraine, according to international standards, there is a timezone called *Europe/Kiev*. The capital of Ukraine is officially and internationally should be spelled as "Kyiv". "Kiev" is an incorrect version that emerged a long time before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. We have a really large community of programmers that would like to start the process of renaming the Europe/Kiev timezone to Europe/Kyiv. We understand that it will take a long time for everybody to transition, but it has to be done in the long term. Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat.
Hi! This has been a contentious point on this list for quite some time now. Back when it was first raised the argument against changing it was that English media continued to primarily use Kiev. I then agreed with that assessment. This has now changed, and you'd be hard to press finding English speaking media to not use Kyiv. So now I also believe it is the right moment to switch this and make Europe/Kiev the back link to Europe/Kyiv. cheers Derick On 11 April 2022 16:38:38 BST, Oleksandr Leskiv via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
The history of timezones has some existing cases where a specific timezone has been renamed. For example, the *Asia/Calcutta* timezone has been deemed obsolete and replaced by *Asia/Kolkata*. In Ukraine, according to international standards, there is a timezone called *Europe/Kiev*. The capital of Ukraine is officially and internationally should be spelled as "Kyiv". "Kiev" is an incorrect version that emerged a long time before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. We have a really large community of programmers that would like to start the process of renaming the Europe/Kiev timezone to Europe/Kyiv. We understand that it will take a long time for everybody to transition, but it has to be done in the long term.
Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat.
Agreed. The world has changed. The time for Europe/Kyiv with a backwards compatibility Europe/Kiev link has come. Howard On Apr 11, 2022, at 2:40 PM, Derick Rethans via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Hi!
This has been a contentious point on this list for quite some time now. Back when it was first raised the argument against changing it was that English media continued to primarily use Kiev. I then agreed with that assessment.
This has now changed, and you'd be hard to press finding English speaking media to not use Kyiv. So now I also believe it is the right moment to switch this and make Europe/Kiev the back link to Europe/Kyiv.
cheers Derick
On 11 April 2022 16:38:38 BST, Oleksandr Leskiv via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
The history of timezones has some existing cases where a specific timezone has been renamed. For example, the *Asia/Calcutta* timezone has been deemed obsolete and replaced by *Asia/Kolkata*. In Ukraine, according to international standards, there is a timezone called *Europe/Kiev*. The capital of Ukraine is officially and internationally should be spelled as "Kyiv". "Kiev" is an incorrect version that emerged a long time before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. We have a really large community of programmers that would like to start the process of renaming the Europe/Kiev timezone to Europe/Kyiv. We understand that it will take a long time for everybody to transition, but it has to be done in the long term.
Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat.
I agree that the time has probably come to make the switch, leaving the old spelling as a backwards compatibility link. On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 12:40 Derick Rethans via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Hi!
This has been a contentious point on this list for quite some time now. Back when it was first raised the argument against changing it was that English media continued to primarily use Kiev. I then agreed with that assessment.
This has now changed, and you'd be hard to press finding English speaking media to not use Kyiv. So now I also believe it is the right moment to switch this and make Europe/Kiev the back link to Europe/Kyiv.
cheers Derick
On 11 April 2022 16:38:38 BST, Oleksandr Leskiv via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
The history of timezones has some existing cases where a specific timezone has been renamed. For example, the *Asia/Calcutta* timezone has been deemed obsolete and replaced by *Asia/Kolkata*. In Ukraine, according to international standards, there is a timezone called *Europe/Kiev*. The capital of Ukraine is officially and internationally should be spelled as "Kyiv". "Kiev" is an incorrect version that emerged a long time before the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. We have a really large community of programmers that would like to start the process of renaming the Europe/Kiev timezone to Europe/Kyiv. We understand that it will take a long time for everybody to transition, but it has to be done in the long term.
Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat.
-- Jonathan Leffler <jonathan.leffler@gmail.com> #include <disclaimer.h> Guardian of DBD::Informix - v2018.1031 - http://dbi.perl.org "Blessed are we who can laugh at ourselves, for we shall never cease to be amused."
On 4/11/22 11:49, Jonathan Leffler via tz wrote:
I agree that the time has probably come to make the switch, leaving the old spelling as a backwards compatibility link.
Yes, things have changed significantly since the last time I did a survey. Proposed patch attached, and installed into the development repository.
On 2022-04-13 08:42:32 (+0800), Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
On 4/11/22 11:49, Jonathan Leffler via tz wrote:
I agree that the time has probably come to make the switch, leaving the old spelling as a backwards compatibility link.
Yes, things have changed significantly since the last time I did a survey. Proposed patch attached, and installed into the development repository.
Thanks for (finally) making this change! I would suggest some minor changes to the commentary though. Referring to "the current conflict" will not age well. Words like "traditional" and "popular" have unhelpful connotations which the word "common" neatly avoids. I also wonder if it wouldn't be less disruptive to our users to take this opportunity to also rename Europe/Uzhgorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporizhzhia at the same time... Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises
On 4/12/22 20:59, Philip Paeps wrote: Words like "traditional"
and "popular" have unhelpful connotations which the word "common" neatly avoids.
Thanks, I replaced those (see attached).
Referring to "the current conflict" will not age well.
I hope it'll be OK. That phrase is in a datelined comment and an earlier phrase in the same sentence says "now", so the context should be clear enough.
I also wonder if it wouldn't be less disruptive to our users to take this opportunity to also rename Europe/Uzhgorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporizhzhia at the same time...
As far as I can see, there's considerably less consensus on those spellings in English. One symptom of this is that I thought that the latter was "Zaporizhia" - after all, the name had been spelled that way in TZDB commentary since I put it there in 2007, without complaints that I recall - and it's not clear to me that "Zaporizhia" is incorrect as an English-language rendering of "Запоріжжя". A better consensus may emerge with time.
Hello everybody. As a native Ukrainian speaker, I do agree that "Europe/Uzhhorod" and "Europe/Zaporizhzhia" do have a more correct version of transliteration compared to "Europe/Uzhgorod" and "Europe/Zaporozhye". On the other hand, to my knowledge, Ukraine does not actively use these timezones, as every town in Ukraine has the same UTC offset, which is determined by the "Europe/Kyiv" timezone (formerly, "Europe/Kiev"). So in my opinion, these changes, while important, are not so urgent to be made. Regarding Philip Paeps's comment about "the current conflict" - I believe that this is not a correct term that should be for the situation that has been happening between Ukraine and Russian Federation lately. I do think that besides Ukraine, almost every country has qualified this as Russo-Ukrainian War. Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat. On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 5:59 AM Philip Paeps <philip@trouble.is> wrote:
On 2022-04-13 08:42:32 (+0800), Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
On 4/11/22 11:49, Jonathan Leffler via tz wrote:
I agree that the time has probably come to make the switch, leaving the old spelling as a backwards compatibility link.
Yes, things have changed significantly since the last time I did a survey. Proposed patch attached, and installed into the development repository.
Thanks for (finally) making this change!
I would suggest some minor changes to the commentary though. Referring to "the current conflict" will not age well. Words like "traditional" and "popular" have unhelpful connotations which the word "common" neatly avoids.
I also wonder if it wouldn't be less disruptive to our users to take this opportunity to also rename Europe/Uzhgorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporizhzhia at the same time...
Philip
-- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises
Throwing out another option: it seems that at least Europe/Zaporozhye came directly from Shanks with no corroboration, and at least one of my Ukrainian colleagues expressed some skepticism that these regions even have a distinct time zone history, see this previous thread: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2018-June/026562.html I don't think we ever got any corroboration on the validity of these data. I certainly could never find anything about it. I seem to recall Andrew Paprocki filed some sort of freedom of information act request with the CIA for clarification, but I don't recall anything ever coming from that. If these are "phantom zones" we can quite possibly moot the question by merging them into Europe/Kyiv. Best, Paul On 4/13/22 07:24, Oleksandr Leskiv via tz wrote:
Hello everybody. As a native Ukrainian speaker, I do agree that "Europe/Uzhhorod" and "Europe/Zaporizhzhia" do have a more correct version of transliteration compared to "Europe/Uzhgorod" and "Europe/Zaporozhye". On the other hand, to my knowledge, Ukraine does not actively use these timezones, as every town in Ukraine has the same UTC offset, which is determined by the "Europe/Kyiv" timezone (formerly, "Europe/Kiev"). So in my opinion, these changes, while important, are not so urgent to be made.
Regarding Philip Paeps's comment about "the current conflict" - I believe that this is not a correct term that should be for the situation that has been happening between Ukraine and Russian Federation lately. I do think that besides Ukraine, almost every country has qualified this as Russo-Ukrainian War.
Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat.
On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 5:59 AM Philip Paeps <philip@trouble.is> wrote:
On 2022-04-13 08:42:32 (+0800), Paul Eggert via tz wrote: > On 4/11/22 11:49, Jonathan Leffler via tz wrote: >> I agree that the time has probably come to make the switch, leaving >> the old >> spelling as a backwards compatibility link. > > Yes, things have changed significantly since the last time I did a > survey. Proposed patch attached, and installed into the development > repository.
Thanks for (finally) making this change!
I would suggest some minor changes to the commentary though. Referring to "the current conflict" will not age well. Words like "traditional" and "popular" have unhelpful connotations which the word "common" neatly avoids.
I also wonder if it wouldn't be less disruptive to our users to take this opportunity to also rename Europe/Uzhgorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporizhzhia at the same time...
Philip
-- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises
Hello! This discussion about timezone renaming started on April 11th and didn't have any activity since April 13th. Following up, I wanted to ask what is currently the status of changing "Europe/Kiev" to "Europe/Kyiv"? Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat. On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 1:24 PM Oleksandr Leskiv <sasha26.05.2012@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everybody. As a native Ukrainian speaker, I do agree that "Europe/Uzhhorod" and "Europe/Zaporizhzhia" do have a more correct version of transliteration compared to "Europe/Uzhgorod" and "Europe/Zaporozhye". On the other hand, to my knowledge, Ukraine does not actively use these timezones, as every town in Ukraine has the same UTC offset, which is determined by the "Europe/Kyiv" timezone (formerly, "Europe/Kiev"). So in my opinion, these changes, while important, are not so urgent to be made.
Regarding Philip Paeps's comment about "the current conflict" - I believe that this is not a correct term that should be for the situation that has been happening between Ukraine and Russian Federation lately. I do think that besides Ukraine, almost every country has qualified this as Russo-Ukrainian War.
Sincerely, Oleksandr. TakeUsEat.
On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 5:59 AM Philip Paeps <philip@trouble.is> wrote:
On 2022-04-13 08:42:32 (+0800), Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
On 4/11/22 11:49, Jonathan Leffler via tz wrote:
I agree that the time has probably come to make the switch, leaving the old spelling as a backwards compatibility link.
Yes, things have changed significantly since the last time I did a survey. Proposed patch attached, and installed into the development repository.
Thanks for (finally) making this change!
I would suggest some minor changes to the commentary though. Referring to "the current conflict" will not age well. Words like "traditional" and "popular" have unhelpful connotations which the word "common" neatly avoids.
I also wonder if it wouldn't be less disruptive to our users to take this opportunity to also rename Europe/Uzhgorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporizhzhia at the same time...
Philip
-- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises
On 2022-06-23 20:22:41 (+0800), Oleksandr Leskiv wrote:
This discussion about timezone renaming started on April 11th and didn't have any activity since April 13th. Following up, I wanted to ask what is currently the status of changing "Europe/Kiev" to "Europe/Kyiv"?
It was changed in April. https://github.com/eggert/tz/commit/e13e9c531fc48a04fb8d064acccc9f8ae68d5544 The change will be in the next release. Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises
participants (7)
-
Derick Rethans -
Howard Hinnant -
Jonathan Leffler -
Oleksandr Leskiv -
Paul Eggert -
Paul Ganssle -
Philip Paeps