Re: [tz] Ambiguous abbreviations for Australian timezones when daylight savings is in affect [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
So I see the patronising attitude of the TZ database coordinators rages on :-) It has been said that their are inconsistencies in both Australian Federal & State legislation and common usage. This point can be conceded even though it is based on an assessment far removed from the actual situation. It has also been stated that the aim is to use labels and abbreviations for timezones that are most commonly used and understood. A good point as the intention is to make sure they are widely understood (FYI irony). However the basis for the decision to use the ambiguous terms and abbreviations 'Eastern Standard Time'; 'EST' and 'Eastern Summer Time'; 'EST' is a highly unscientific internet search and the paternalistic opinions of the coordinators. As there appears to be a fondness for search engine results in decision making why not try this one: australia EDT site:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/ Take a look at the number of times that, mostly Australians, have asked for the terms and abbreviations used for Australian time zones (esp. *D*aylight Saving Time) to be disambiguated. You might also look at the amount of frustration and acrimony the one-eyed, condescending responses of the coordinators and mostly non-Australian list members cause and consider how often this stops people from bothering to voice opinions and endeavouring to resolve issues. ----- On a lighter note and at the risk of hindering my own argument I'm surprised none of you jokers from out-of-town have pointed out 'ESST'; 'Eastern Standard Summer Time'. "Eastern Standard Summer Time" "ESST" site:.au about 1,810 results PS An interesting video from the 1970's Four Corners program on the ABC (Australia's national broadcaster, ICYDK) on the introduction of "Daylight Saving" in Tasmania. Note the consistent use of that term "Daylight Saving", "Summer Time" is never mentioned (FYI It's a predominantly British term) and take a look at the flight attendant's bonnet! http://www.abc.net.au/archives/80days/stories/2012/01/19/3415208.htm Peter Stagg
A group of us from the list have decided to put together a proposed patch to change the Australian abbreviations to S/D abbreviations. We are hoping, that the maintainers of tz decide to implement the patch in the tz database. In the mean time: - would the preference be to preceed the abbreviations with A, or not? - historically, how far back should we apply the patch to the abbreviations. We will submit the patch to the list for review, and hope it is implemented. But if it is not, we have decided to fork tz and provide a new distribution with the new abbreviations applied. David Patte Relative Data, Inc.
I think if an 'A' were retained in front, it would help to distinguish from American Timezones. In addition to AWST, ACST, ACDT, AEST and AEDT, we must make sure LHST and LHDT (same as AEDT) are included for Lord Howe Island. Should an 'A' be in front of it too. Also, the timezone used in Eucla, WA should be included. This is 0:45 ahead of AWST and 0:45 behind ACST. This is referred to as CWST. Should there be an 'A' in front of it too. My observations of these timezones are that there is no particular standard used on news, weather or even TV broadcasting which is the most common source of use. Some stations refer to AEDT as AEDST which I think is wrong. Thank you. Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of David Patte ? Sent: 08 April 2013 11:20 To: tz@iana.org Subject: Re: [tz] Ambiguous abbreviations for Australian timezones when daylight savings is in affect [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] A group of us from the list have decided to put together a proposed patch to change the Australian abbreviations to S/D abbreviations. We are hoping, that the maintainers of tz decide to implement the patch in the tz database. In the mean time: - would the preference be to preceed the abbreviations with A, or not? - historically, how far back should we apply the patch to the abbreviations. We will submit the patch to the list for review, and hope it is implemented. But if it is not, we have decided to fork tz and provide a new distribution with the new abbreviations applied. David Patte Relative Data, Inc.
Thanks David that’s sounds great. My preference (certainly not authoritative) is that the A's be included. As for how far back should the patch to the abbreviations be applied? For my purposes from 2000 would be desirable. Are there any difficulties applying to the entire archive? Cheers, Robert -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of David Patte ? Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013 11:20 AM To: tz@iana.org Subject: Re: [tz] Ambiguous abbreviations for Australian timezones when daylight savings is in affect [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] A group of us from the list have decided to put together a proposed patch to change the Australian abbreviations to S/D abbreviations. We are hoping, that the maintainers of tz decide to implement the patch in the tz database. In the mean time: - would the preference be to preceed the abbreviations with A, or not? - historically, how far back should we apply the patch to the abbreviations. We will submit the patch to the list for review, and hope it is implemented. But if it is not, we have decided to fork tz and provide a new distribution with the new abbreviations applied. David Patte Relative Data, Inc.
My preference is also to preceed the abbreviations with A. It is not difficult to produce a patch which changes the abbreviations back to the time of original implementation of Daylight Saving time, but I'd prefer to get a concensus as to when the D/S abbreviations came into more promenant usage, if indeed the D/D abbreviations were ever more commonly used. On 2013-04-07 21:39, Robert Greenwood wrote:
Thanks David that’s sounds great.
My preference (certainly not authoritative) is that the A's be included.
As for how far back should the patch to the abbreviations be applied? For my purposes from 2000 would be desirable. Are there any difficulties applying to the entire archive?
Cheers, Robert
-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of David Patte ? Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013 11:20 AM To: tz@iana.org Subject: Re: [tz] Ambiguous abbreviations for Australian timezones when daylight savings is in affect [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
A group of us from the list have decided to put together a proposed patch to change the Australian abbreviations to S/D abbreviations. We are hoping, that the maintainers of tz decide to implement the patch in the tz database.
In the mean time: - would the preference be to preceed the abbreviations with A, or not? - historically, how far back should we apply the patch to the abbreviations.
We will submit the patch to the list for review, and hope it is implemented. But if it is not, we have decided to fork tz and provide a new distribution with the new abbreviations applied.
David Patte Relative Data, Inc.
--
but I'd prefer to get a concensus as to when the D/S abbreviations came into more promenant usage, if indeed the D/D abbreviations were ever more commonly used.
I don't see this is a fact that the TZ DB cares about, e.g. I see no evidence the code SET had been in use for time in Sweden: ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/europe 1:00:14 SET Swedish (1879-1899)* Changing abbreviations on a year basis requires much more research. Yearly adjusted : people need more time to decode an acronym Not-yearly adjusted: people understand acronyms for past times as they do for current. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com
As for how far back should the patch to the abbreviations be applied? For my purposes from 2000 would be desirable. Are there any difficulties applying to the entire archive?
AFAICS and comparing with ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/northamerica only the file ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/australasia needs to be changed. For the Australian zones 1) replace EST with E%sT OR AE%sT 2) in the columns LETTER/S replace "-" with the letter "D" and "S" as applicable. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
True, but what we will provide is a proposal which also provides similiar changes to the central, western, Lord Howe and Eucla zones, where appropriate. On 2013-04-07 21:58, Tobias Conradi wrote:
As for how far back should the patch to the abbreviations be applied? For my purposes from 2000 would be desirable. Are there any difficulties applying to the entire archive? AFAICS and comparing with ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/northamerica
only the file
ftp://ftp.iana.org/tz/data/australasia
needs to be changed. For the Australian zones
1) replace EST with E%sT OR AE%sT
2) in the columns LETTER/S replace "-" with the letter "D" and "S" as applicable.
-- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany
--
On 7 April 2013 22:16, David Patte ₯ <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
True, but what we will provide is a proposal which also provides similiar changes to the central, western, Lord Howe and Eucla zones, where appropriate.
Don't forget Antarctica/Casey and Antarctica/Macquarie in the antarctica file, as well. At any time that those zones observed an Australia-based time, their abbreviations should be handled consistently with the rest of Australia. On 7 April 2013 21:53, David Patte ₯ <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
It is not difficult to produce a patch which changes the abbreviations back to the time of original implementation of Daylight Saving time, but I'd prefer to get a concensus as to when the D/S abbreviations came into more promenant usage, if indeed the D/D abbreviations were ever more commonly used.
I think trying to go that route would end up sowing somewhat more confusion than that which the patch aims to avoid, since "S" would mean two things before a certain date, but only one thing after that date. Not to mention that such a date would be impossible to pin down, for the same reason the broader discussion on these abbreviations has occurred (opinions here vary from "it's already happened" to "it hasn't happened" to "it's irrelevant"). Either make the change for all years, or don't make it at all. On 7 April 2013 21:19, David Patte ₯ <dpatte@relativedata.com> wrote:
We will submit the patch to the list for review, and hope it is implemented. But if it is not, we have decided to fork tz and provide a new distribution with the new abbreviations applied.
I sincerely hope that it doesn't come to a fork and that the patch will be accepted. It seems to me that, despite a still-vocal minority, we have a significantly clearer consensus on this matter now than we did even a year ago. Hopefully, the coordinator(s) recognize this and we can remain a unified project despite differing opinions. For the record, it is my preference to proceed with the AxST/AxDT format. Australia/Eucla would then become ACWST/ACWDT for consistency with its neighbors. I feel that for Australia/Lord_Howe, LHST being quite unique already would mean that LHST/LHDT could be used without the A, but others may disagree. -- Tim Parenti
I recommend we take this discussion off the tz list. This tz list is too critical for many people to become the whiteboard of our pending proposal. I believe Tobias is setting up an AU tz discussion group where we can prepare the proposal-patch to bring back for review by the tz list. Once the AU tz discussion list is set up, I would like to ask Tobias to invite interested parties to join that list. Once we have a proposal prepared, we will submit it back to this list. It will then be up to tz to decide whether to implement it or not. No need for further discussion. By doing this, we reduce the noise on the tz list itself. Even if the patch is not accepted by the tz maintainers in the long run, they can simply redirect any newcomers with similar issues off this list onto our list to keep this list more focused on other issues, and we can provide those interested with the patch we have proposed. Tobias, if you can setup the discussion, let us know, and I will provide a first pass at a recommended patch which I'll post on that list. I'll await your message.
David Patte, thanks for pointing out my error on only replacing EST and not mentioning CST. After seeing the emails this morning I started installing a MediaWiki separate from tango.info under a more general purpose domain. The two time zone database related pages from tango.info are now imported into the new wiki and are accessible via: http://anna.info/wiki/Time_zone_database I am documenting bugs IANA time zone database bugs at: http://anna.info/wiki/IANA_time_zone_database For Australia the acronyms are ambiguous, some Norwegian territory is not covered at all and in Siberia whole zones are wrong - and no fixes applied. I will try to create a patched australasia file within the next 48 hours, upload it and let the list know. Maybe after getting some feedback from list members, you can create a patch file, since I never did that and don't have the time right now to work out how to do that. Maybe after some testing you can email the patch and give the TZ Coordinator time to apply it. If this is not done we proceed with forking, probably using one of your ftp servers. Also thanks to David Grosz on pointing to the other zones in Australia apart from EST and CST. I will use zone.tab and check all. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com
In order to reduce the noise on this list concerning AU timezone suggestions, I have taken the liberty of opening a side discussion as a forum at www.relativedata.com. It is now running. If you would like to discuss AU timezone abbreviations, and to discuss possible solutions, please create an account at relativedata.com and log in and go to that forum. The forum is moderated, so any message you post may not appear immediately, but we will get to it asap. The goal of the forum is: - to reduce the traffic and heat on the tz mailing list by moving alternate abbreviation discussions to an alternate forum. - to discuss and propose suggestions that might improve the abbreviations used in tz for Australia - to (hopefully) come to a concensus for a proposed patch for changed abbreviations that could be reviewed by the tz maintainers, and (hopefully) be accepted into tz. - in the event the proposal is not accepted by the tz maintainers, we would discuss options for maintaining sets of alternate tz data patches elsewhere, for those interested.
On 2013-04-09 05:50, David Patte ₯ wrote:
In order to reduce the noise on this list concerning AU timezone suggestions, I have taken the liberty of opening a side discussion as a forum at www.relativedata.com. It is now running.
If you would like to discuss AU timezone abbreviations, and to discuss possible solutions, please create an account at relativedata.com and log in and go to that forum.
The forum is moderated, so any message you post may not appear immediately, but we will get to it asap.
The goal of the forum is: - to reduce the traffic and heat on the tz mailing list by moving alternate abbreviation discussions to an alternate forum. - to discuss and propose suggestions that might improve the abbreviations used in tz for Australia - to (hopefully) come to a concensus for a proposed patch for changed abbreviations that could be reviewed by the tz maintainers, and (hopefully) be accepted into tz. - in the event the proposal is not accepted by the tz maintainers, we would discuss options for maintaining sets of alternate tz data patches elsewhere, for those interested.
Personally, I'd prefer discussions to be kept on the tz list, for archival purposes and to promote open discussion. -- -=( Ian Abbott @ MEV Ltd. E-mail: <abbotti@mev.co.uk> )=- -=( Tel: +44 (0)161 477 1898 FAX: +44 (0)161 718 3587 )=-
- would the preference be to preceed the abbreviations with A, or not?
This has always been the preference, but it's been a bit of a fight one battle at a time scenario where replacing the S with D for daylight savings is the more urgent of the two.
- historically, how far back should we apply the patch to the abbreviations.
Based on a previous patch linked to from this redhat bug: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=478566 previous request have been for it to be applied to the entire database. As far as I can tell the Eastern Summer Time (EST) abbreviation was created on an assumption when this database was created rather than being taken from common use. Tim -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of David Patte ? Sent: Monday, 8 April 2013 11:20 AM To: tz@iana.org Subject: Re: [tz] Ambiguous abbreviations for Australian timezones when daylight savings is in affect [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] A group of us from the list have decided to put together a proposed patch to change the Australian abbreviations to S/D abbreviations. We are hoping, that the maintainers of tz decide to implement the patch in the tz database. In the mean time: - would the preference be to preceed the abbreviations with A, or not? - historically, how far back should we apply the patch to the abbreviations. We will submit the patch to the list for review, and hope it is implemented. But if it is not, we have decided to fork tz and provide a new distribution with the new abbreviations applied. David Patte Relative Data, Inc.
participants (9)
-
David Grosz -
David Patte ₯ -
Ian Abbott -
Peter Stagg -
Robert Greenwood -
Tim Parenti -
Timothy Arceri -
Tobias Conradi -
Tobias Conradi