Good evening! I’ve read some great news, that you are finally changing Europe/Kiev to Europe/Kyiv. Can other Ukrainian timezones get the same treatment, and so get Europe/Uzhgorod to be changed to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Zaporizhzhia? All according to the officially recognized UNGEGN World Geographical Names. Thanks
On 5/25/22 08:14, gusak ivanov via tz wrote:
Can other Ukrainian timezones get the same treatment, and so get Europe/Uzhgorod to be changed to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Zaporizhzhia?
TZDB uses names that most commonly appear in English, and due to maintenance and configuration hassles we're reluctant to change spellings unless common English usage has demonstrably changed. Although we found good evidence for such a change in "Kiev" vs "Kyiv", it's not yet clear whether the other names' spelling have changed in common English usage, or if they have changed what they are changing to. TZDB often uses common (albeit "wrong") English spellings (e.g., "Sofia" not "Sofiya", "Prague" not "Praha") so these other Ukrainian locations are in good company. This issue is worth noting in NEWS as I expect others will have similar questions. Proposed patch attached.
On May 25, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
TZDB often uses common (albeit "wrong") English spellings (e.g., "Sofia" not "Sofiya", "Prague" not "Praha") so these other Ukrainian locations are in good company.
I.e., "not spelled using a standard transliteration to English from the primary language of the country, or region of the country, that the city is in" doesn't mean "wrong"; other examples are "Moscow" not "Moskva" and "Rome" not "Roma". Is there a significant movement to, for example, spell the Czech capital's name in English as "Praha"?
Date: Wed, 25 May 2022 18:09:00 -0700 From: Guy Harris via tz <tz@iana.org> Message-ID: <7CFFF7FD-D340-4317-A2D1-5AFADEABDB81@sonic.net> | I.e., "not spelled using a standard transliteration to English from | the primary language of the country, or region of the country, | that the city is in" doesn't mean "wrong"; other examples are | "Moscow" not "Moskva" and "Rome" not "Roma". And the wildest is perhaps Bangkok, which isn't even close to the transliteration of (the abbreviated form of, it is, in full, a very long name) Krungthep (phonetically, not in the standard way such things are written, which I neither know, nor could type if I did, so just an English approximation, Grungtep (where the 'u' is like in full, not in cup, or even further away lute)). And of course we do the same to country names, Germany, Spain, Austria Ivory Coast, (even Russia I think, not sure about Ukraine). And I kind of doubt that English is the only language/culture that does this, I seem to recall that in German, France, England (probably more) aren't the same as they are in English (or their native - but I picked France because that's the same in both EN and FR). I've never really understood the desire for wacky transliterations, with Krungthep almost no-one who doesn't even is going to pronounce it correctly (which is why when Latin script forms of Thai are used there are a zillion different forms, I live in Hat Yai also written Haat Had Haad depending upon the mood of the writer (the Yai part is usually unaltered). But where the translit is usually used, like on Ko (thai word for Island, as in Ko Samui) most foreigners pronounce it as koh, that correct pronounciation is "gaw" - the K is as in Krungthgep, a very hard K (which is a hard G believe it or not) and 'o' is used tra translit the Thai vowells for all of aw song and oh. (Thai has a much bigger character set than Latin langugaues, but compensates by having no upper/lower case, so the numkber of chars in the carset is about the same). Anyway, everyone (I think) (except apparently some ex US president) that Thai isn't thigh, but tie, and Phuket isn't Fuckit or anything like it, but poo... but few notice the lack of the h after the k and pronounce the 2nd syllable as "ket" where it should be "get". I have absolutely no idea how Kyiv is supposed to be pronounced, and will keep pronouncing it as I do Kiev (which I think most English speakers do, otherwise no-one would know what they're talking about) - but I doubt that is very much related to how someone speaking Russian pronounces it. kre
Robert Elz via tz said:
And of course we do the same to country names, Germany, Spain, Austria Ivory Coast, (even Russia I think, not sure about Ukraine).
And I kind of doubt that English is the only language/culture that does this, I seem to recall that in German, France, England (probably more) aren't the same as they are in English (or their native - but I picked France because that's the same in both EN and FR).
I happen to know that the Dutch for "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is "England", possibly because they have their own United Kingdom.
I have absolutely no idea how Kyiv is supposed to be pronounced, and will keep pronouncing it as I do Kiev (which I think most English speakers do, otherwise no-one would know what they're talking about) - but I doubt that is very much related to how someone speaking Russian pronounces it.
BBC Radio 4 seems to be using something closer to "Keev" (as in "keep") than "Key-ev" these days. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
On May 26, 2022, at 12:58 AM, Robert Elz <kre@munnari.OZ.AU> wrote:
And I kind of doubt that English is the only language/culture that does this, I seem to recall that in German, France, England (probably more) aren't the same as they are in English
France is "Frankreich" in German (kingdom of the Franks, I guess). More than you ever wanted to know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_France And Deutschland is "Allemagne" in French (land of the Alamanni, I guess). More than you ever wanted to know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany (And Москва - "Moskva" - is "Moscou" in French and "Moskau" in German, just as it's "Moscow" in English.)
gusak ivanov via tz <tz@iana.org> writes:
Can other Ukrainian timezones get the same treatment, and so get Europe/Uzhgorod to be changed to Europe/Uzhhorod and Europe/Zaporozhye to Europe/Zaporizhzhia?
For what it's worth, the BBC have been using "Zaporizhzhia" consistently and frequently in their reporting on the region since 4th March. The last use of "Zaporozhye" on their web site that isn't reported speech from someone else is from 2004. Uzhhorod hasn't been in the news as much, but all but one of the BBC's 2022 stories spell it "Uzhhorod" -- the one "Uzhgorod" outlier is in passing in a story from BBC Sports Africa. Channel 4 News (in the UK) has a much smaller archive than the BBC, but I can only find examples of "Zaporizhzhia" and "Uzhhorod" there -- no stories use the older spellings. Euronews is much the same -- lots of instances of "Zaporizhzhia", none of "Zaporozhye"; several of "Uzhhorod", only two of "Uzhgorod". Deutsche Welle's English-language reporting is also the same -- lots of stories using "Zaporizhzhia", one that uses both in reported speech, and one that uses only "Zaporozhye". "Uzhhorod" is used in stories since 2014, with a few instances of "Uzhgorod" before that. So I'd say that, for UK media, the story with these two names seems pretty clear (even prior to 2022) and it would be worth making this change for consistency with Kyiv. Thanks, -- Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
Thanks for the UK survey. I'll try to spring some time to look into US and other English-language sources. If they've switched that much too then we should follow.
On 27 May 2022, at 09:17, Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Thanks for the UK survey. I'll try to spring some time to look into US and other English-language sources. If they've switched that much too then we should follow.
I had a quick look at Australian news sources from the start of 2022. The ABC is using Zaporizhzhia (except for a one-off use of Zaporozhye, possibly a mistake) and Uzhhorod. There are some results for Uzhgorod in their news search tool, but when opening the linked articles they all use Uzhhorod (so possibly corrected after first publication). Nine media (e.g. Sydney Morning Herald, The Age) are using Zaporizhzhia and Uzhhorod. News Limited (e.g. news.com.au) is using Uzhhorod. There are 4 articles using Zaporozhye, but the large majority use Zaporizhzhia. The Guardian (mixture of UK and Australian news) has many results for both Zaporizhzhia and Zaporozhye, so doesn’t look settled on that one. It seems to have settled on Uzhhorod though, with only 2 results for Uzhgorod. As with Adam’s look into UK results, most uses of the older Zaporozhye and Uzhgorod on the Australian sites date from around 2014.
participants (7)
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Adam Sampson -
Clive D.W. Feather -
Gilmore Davidson -
gusak ivanov -
Guy Harris -
Paul Eggert -
Robert Elz