On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 16:11, Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E] <olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov> wrote:

Here are questions to be answered prior to setting up zones in the "asia" file:

1. What's the English translation of the Han name of the city with the largest Han population in Asia/Urumqi? 2. What's the English translation of the Han name of the city with the largest Han population in Asia/Kashgar? 3. What's the English translation of the Uyghur name of the city with the largest Uyghur population in Asia/Urumqi? 4. What's the English translation of the Uyghur name of the city with the largest Uyghur population in Asia/Urumqi? 5. When exactly did the Asia/Urumqi Uyghurs start using their own distinct time? 6. When exactly did the Asia/Kashgar Uyghurs start using their own distinct time?

The path forward depends on the answers to the above questions.

With the risk of being redundant to previous answers these are the most common English "transliterations" (w/o using non-English symbols): 1. Wulumuqi from 乌鲁木齐 / wūlǔmùqí 2. Kashi from 喀什 / kāshí 3. Urumqi from ئۈرۈمچى / Ürümqi 4. Kashgar from قەشقەر / Ķəxķər [Chinese, in simplified characters and pinyin; Uyghur, in the currently used modified Arabic script and Latin script, (yengi yazik) used primarily during the cultural revolution. The character "Ķ", "Latin K with cedilla" should really be "Latin K with right descender" which doesn't exist in unicode] The English "translations" of the cities follow the Uyghur transliterations, perhaps because Xinjiang is the Uyghur Autonomous Region. Of the two, the spelling of Kashgar has the widest variation. I have no problem with Kaxkar or Kaxgar. (I don't know why the "q" in Urumqi stuck but not the "x" in Kaxgar, both from pinyin.) Urumqi is the largest city and the capital of Xinjiang, Kashgar is the chief city of the southern part of Xinjiang (which is split in half by the Tianshan Mountains). It has the largest Uyghur population in the south and is also considered by many to be the Uyghur cultural center. There may however be more Han in Korla than Kashgar (also in the south of the XJ). 5. It seems that Uyghurs in Urumqi has been using Xinjiang since at least the 1960's. I know of one Han, now over 50, who grew up in the surrounding countryside and used Xinjiang time as a child. 6. Likewise for Kashgar and the rest of south Xinjiang I don't know of any start date for Xinjiang time. Without having access to local historical records, nor the ability to legally publish them, I would go with October 1, 1949, when Xinjiang became the Uyghur Autonomous Region under the PRC. (Before that Uyghurs, of course, would also not be using Beijing time, but some local time.) Lude (Luther) Ma

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 16:31, OvV_HN <ovv@hetnet.nl> wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Luther Ma" <ma.lude.xj@gmail.com>

...

 The character "Ķ",  "Latin K with cedilla" should  really be "Latin K with right  descender" which doesn't exist in unicode]

I beg to differ. See U+049A/049B. In the Cyrillic region of characters.

Precisely. That's _Cyrillic_ K with descender; Luther Ma was talking about _Latin_ K with descender, which doesn't exist. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>

This is great news which I didn't expect to find on this list. Thanks, -mld On Nov 19, 2009, at 9:42 PM, Philip Newton wrote:

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 16:34, Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com> wrote:

...

_Latin_ K with descender, which doesn't exist.

And apparently it does (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_with_descender ), at U+2C69/U+2C6A), in the Latin Extended-C block, along with a couple of other "Additions for Uighur" (HhZz with descender). Added in Unicode 5.0, apparently; the code chart is dated Feb 2008.

Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>

Kashgar and Urumqi are indeed both cities in the same neck of the woods, and they both now operate on the same time. In the past, though, they used different times so they get separate entries in the time zone database. --ado -----Original Message----- From: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven [mailto:asmodai@in-nomine.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:28 To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Cc: tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov Subject: Re: Xinjiang -On [20091118 16:11], Olson, Arthur David (NIH/NCI) [E] (olsona@dc37a.nci.nih.gov) wrote:

1. What's the English translation of the Han name of the city with the largest Han population in Asia/Urumqi? 2. What's the English translation of the Han name of the city with the largest Han population in Asia/Kashgar? 3. What's the English translation of the Uyghur name of the city with the largest Uyghur population in Asia/Urumqi? 4. What's the English translation of the Uyghur name of the city with the largest Uyghur population in Asia/Urumqi?

Both Kashgar and Urumqi are cities of the Xinjian Uyhghur AR, so I am a bit confused by your questions above. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B Nothing is ever as it appears. You fool only yourself if you believe what is easiest to believe...

Because if you ask "the name of the city with ... in Asia/Urumqi" it basically asks for a city in a city.

"Urumqi" is the city; "Asia/Urumqi" is the time zone region that includes the city.

Urumqi is, according to the census data I looked at, the largest city for both Han and Uyghur populations in the Xinjiang Uyghur AR.

Thanks for that information; do you have the English language transliteration of the Uyghur name of Urumqi? --ado