On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:09:37PM -0700, SM wrote:

At 21:47 06-10-2011, Robert Elz wrote:

...

For now, until someone else volunteers, I'm prepared to make the updates,

Thanks for volunteering. As draft-lear-iana-timezone-database-04 has already been approved by the IESG for publication as a BCP, I suggest that the TZ mailing list reaches consensus for you to fulfill the role of TZ Coordinator.

I support Robert Elz taking on the role of TZ Coordinator until Robert resigns from that role or the TZ mailing list reaches consensus on a new TZ Coordinator. Is anyone opposed? If no-one opposes this, then I believe we have a consensus of the TZ mailing list, as suggested by SM, to cover the formalities. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ David Keegel <djk@cyber.com.au> Cyber IT Solutions Pty. Ltd. http://www.cyber.com.au/~djk/ Linux & Unix Systems Administration

On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 09:58:04PM +1100, David Keegel wrote:

On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:09:37PM -0700, SM wrote:

...

At 21:47 06-10-2011, Robert Elz wrote:

...

For now, until someone else volunteers, I'm prepared to make the updates,

Thanks for volunteering. As draft-lear-iana-timezone-database-04 has already been approved by the IESG for publication as a BCP, I suggest that the TZ mailing list reaches consensus for you to fulfill the role of TZ Coordinator.

I support Robert Elz taking on the role of TZ Coordinator until Robert resigns from that role or the TZ mailing list reaches consensus on a new TZ Coordinator.

Is anyone opposed?

If no-one opposes this, then I believe we have a consensus of the TZ mailing list, as suggested by SM, to cover the formalities.

I sent that message almost 2 weeks ago. I have seen no opposition to it (either to me or the TZ list). If anyone does want to oppose Robert Elz being TZ Coordinator, this is your last call - please speak up in the next day or so. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ David Keegel <djk@cyber.com.au> Cyber IT Solutions Pty. Ltd. http://www.cyber.com.au/~djk/ Linux & Unix Systems Administration

Not that I've ever been very a v ocal or active list participant, but I also emphatically support Robert.

-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Paul_Koning@Dell.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 2:01 PM To: djk@cyber.com.au; tz@iana.org Cc: elear@cisco.com Subject: Re: [tz] Robert Elz as TZ coordinator

Rather than just be silent, my answer is "I support this".

paul

-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of David Keegel Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:08 PM To: tz@iana.org Cc: Eliot Lear Subject: Re: [tz] Robert Elz as TZ coordinator ...

I also have no reservations or objections. Sincerely, Curtis Manwaring ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Vartanian" <flooey@google.com> To: "Paul Goyette" <pgoyette@juniper.net> Cc: <tz@iana.org>; <elear@cisco.com> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [tz] Robert Elz as TZ coordinator

...

Not that I've ever been very a v ocal or active list participant, but I also emphatically support Robert.

Indeed, I support Robert as well.

- Adam

I support this On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:54 PM, M3 Sweatt <msweatt@microsoft.com> wrote:

Is there an outline or summary of what the requirements and actions of the coordinator would be going forward?

Generally no objections, just curious if the Coordinator role and responsibility has been memorialized somewhere.

M3 Sweatt --- Microsoft Product & Services Customer & Partner Satisfaction Protect Your PC: http://www.microsoft.com/protect Sent using Windows 7 and Office 2010

-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Zoidiasoft Tech Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 2:39 PM To: tz@iana.org Subject: Re: [tz] Robert Elz as TZ coordinator

I also have no reservations or objections.

Sincerely, Curtis Manwaring

----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Vartanian" <flooey@google.com> To: "Paul Goyette" <pgoyette@juniper.net> Cc: <tz@iana.org>; <elear@cisco.com> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [tz] Robert Elz as TZ coordinator

...

...

Not that I've ever been very a v ocal or active list participant, but I also emphatically support Robert.

Indeed, I support Robert as well.

- Adam

+1 Marshall Eubanks On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Christos Zoulas <christos@zoulas.com> wrote:

I fully support Robert.

christos

+2 :) On 10/20/11 6:52 PM, "Marshall Eubanks" <marshall.eubanks@gmail.com> wrote:

+1

Marshall Eubanks

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Christos Zoulas <christos@zoulas.com> wrote:

...

I fully support Robert.

christos

Me too. Go KRE. On 20-Oct-2011, Paul_Koning@Dell.com wrote:

Rather than just be silent, my answer is "I support this".

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:08:03 +0200, David Keegel <djk@cyber.com.au> wrote:

I sent that message almost 2 weeks ago. I have seen no opposition to it (either to me or the TZ list).

If anyone does want to oppose Robert Elz being TZ Coordinator, this is your last call - please speak up in the next day or so.

+1

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 07:08:03AM +1100, David Keegel wrote:

On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 09:58:04PM +1100, David Keegel wrote:

...

I support Robert Elz taking on the role of TZ Coordinator until Robert resigns from that role or the TZ mailing list reaches consensus on a new TZ Coordinator.

Is anyone opposed?

If anyone does want to oppose Robert Elz being TZ Coordinator, this is your last call - please speak up in the next day or so.

It's clear to me that there is a consensus on the TZ list in favour of Robert Elz being TZ Coordinator for the time being. I counted about 15 supporters, 3 concurring (no objection), but most importantly 0 against, and no unresolved concerns that I recall. Thanks for your comments. I see no need for any more support. Looking at section 4 of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lear-iana-timezone-database/ it looks like the next step is somebody tells the IESG that the TZ mailing list has reached a consensus that Robert Elz should be TZ Coordinator, then IESG should "confirm" that. Any volunteers for communicating with IESG? My goal here is to try using the process in the I-D and see if we can get that notion of the TZ Coordinator aligned with reality (Robert Elz has been acting like TZ Coordinator for a few weeks, which is a very good thing). For me it is partly as a "dot the I's" exercise, and partly to test the I-D and get a little experience in using it. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ David Keegel <djk@cyber.com.au> Cyber IT Solutions Pty. Ltd. http://www.cyber.com.au/~djk/ Linux & Unix Systems Administration

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 08:45:56AM -0400, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:16 AM, David Keegel <djk@cyber.com.au> wrote:

...

It's clear to me that there is a consensus on the TZ list in favour of Robert Elz being TZ Coordinator for the time being.

...

Looking at section 4 of ? ? ? ?https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lear-iana-timezone-database/ it looks like the next step is somebody tells the IESG that the TZ mailing list has reached a consensus that Robert Elz should be TZ Coordinator, then IESG should "confirm" that.

Any volunteers for communicating with IESG?

As IETF Trust Chair, I would be glad to do that.

Yes, please go ahead, assuming there are no objections in the next 24 hours. Thanks for volunteering Marshall.

Generally, the IESG confirms things in their telechats, which happen on Thursdays. So, this may well take 1 or (my guess) 2 weeks to get on the agenda and get through. If that is a problem, it would be good to know that now.

I don't think we mind if it takes a few weeks or months for IESG confirmation to happen. -- ___________________________________________________________________________ David Keegel <djk@cyber.com.au> Cyber IT Solutions Pty. Ltd. http://www.cyber.com.au/~djk/ Linux & Unix Systems Administration

On Oct 7, 2011, at 1:24 AM, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:

Robert Elz said:

...

All I know of the lawsuit is what jhawk's message indicated - eventually I assume we'll find out what trademark or patent that someone believes is being infringed (a little hard to believe either, but who knows...)

It's a copyright case. The claim is that the tz database copies Astrolabe's books and database.

Books? Paul Eggert's comments state that Shanks' atlases were used as sources for some of the rules at some points in the database's history; whether that's "copying" I'll leave to a lawyer to answer. Database? As far as I know, neither Paul nor any other contributor ever looked at any of the non-dead-tree databases from ACS or Astrolabe.

On 07.10.11 11:59, Peter Ilieve wrote:

The jurisdiction section of Astrolabe's complaint only mentions copyright for "computer software program(s) and/or data bases, and in the form of electronic output and future electronic media from said programs". It doesn't claim anything about books.

I'm no lawyer, but it doesn't look to me as though Astrolabe are in any position to sue anyone about use of data from the printed books, and it is the books that are cited in the tz files. It's all very curious.

I agree, very curious indeed. I own the books in multiple editions. I also have some knowledge of the data structures imn the database version of the ACS atlas, as I work for Astrodienst, which since 1987 holds a license from ACS to use the atlas database in its own computer services (see http://www.astro.com/atlas as one example of such use) The data organisation for the timezone history information in the database is totally different from the data as it is published in the books. In its content the data in both variants are of course related and - depending which versions one compares - identical. I cannot go into details of the data organisation inside the database here in public. Surely the tzdata tz files only refer to the books, while the legal case seems to refer only to software and 'form of electronic output' whatever that means. Of course a book created by text processing and typesetting software can also be called a 'form of electronic output' though this term seems strange. One would have to call it 'printed'. I can only speculate, but the reason may be that the contract under which Astrolabe has acquired rights on the ACS atlas only relates to the database version, not to he book. Which would mean that they are in no position to sue anyone who quotes from the books. The whole thing may just be an attempt to spread confusion and fear in the community.

<<On Fri, 7 Oct 2011 09:24:26 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather" <clive@davros.org> said:

Note that the statements in the various files saying they are public domain does *not* make them so.

To the extent that Arthur could otherwise have claimed copyright in those files, they are in the public domain because he edited them in the course of his work as an employee of the U.S. government. That is what those statements are there to clarify. IANAL, but it is hard to see how this lawsuit makes it past a motion for summary dismissal. But far stranger things have happened, so we'll all have to wait and see. Hopefully those businesses who have benefited from use of the database (and it's hard to name an IT company that hasn't benefited in some way) will rally around. -GAWollman

Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:54:54 +0200 From: Yann Droneaud <yann@droneaud.fr> Message-ID: <1317977694.3462.8.camel@dworkin.quest-ce.net> | It's probably a good time to switch to a distributed version control Actually, while that's almost certainly a good idea, right now is precisely not the time to be doing that. Too many changes all at once just lead to chaos. And even that leaves aside the question of just which of those systems to adopt, which is a question, every other time I have seen it (other contexts), that never seems to get settled quickly - they all seem to have different advantages and disadvantages, which is "best" depends a lot on what each individual user sees as most important. So, that's a good question to put on the back burner and move towards, and then perhaps adopt, sometime when we can get the historical (sccs I think) database, so it can be converted (and all its log history not be lost.) kre

On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 11:57, Stephen Colebourne <scolebourne@joda.org> wrote:

...

And even that leaves aside the question of just which of those systems to adopt, which is a question, every other time I have seen it (other contexts), that never seems to get settled quickly - they all seem to have different advantages and disadvantages, which is "best" depends a lot on what each individual user sees as most important.

That was true a couple of years ago, but now I think you'll find most objective observers agree that git has won and is the rational choice (note thats rational, not best).

I would disagree (if just to make the point that no single system has won): I think you'll find most objective observers agree that hg is much more user-friendly and draws a *lot* of developers (though maybe from a different tribe than yours; for example, Mercurial is quite popular with Windows developers, where git functions suboptimally). So while I agree that setting up a public (D)VCS repo ASAPish would be good, I also agree with Robert that it's sensible to wait a little bit for a discussion to take place, after the current issue subsides a bit. Cheers, Dirkjan

Not sure how it would change the workflow much. They could "own" the master repos e.g. on GitHub, push changes to it, accept change proposals via Pull Requests, and tag official releases whenever they see fit. Git is great because of its distributed workflow. GitHub is great because it makes collaboration a breeze. Together they're a massive win. David On 07.10.2011, at 12:26, Alex Stapleton wrote:

Content preview: On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:37, David Zülke wrote: > Just an idea, but shouldn't we maybe move the whole thing to GitHub or Bitbucket? > > Cloning and maintaining copies will be a piece of cake then. > > David [...]

Content analysis details: (-1.0 points, 6.0 required)

pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP

On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:37, David Zülke wrote:

...

Just an idea, but shouldn't we maybe move the whole thing to GitHub or Bitbucket?

Cloning and maintaining copies will be a piece of cake then.

David

Personally I think it would ultimately be a good thing but it would change the workflow for Eggert and Olson a lot. And since they are the ones that do (did?) the bulk of the integration work from information provided on the mailing list it should probably be kicked off by one of them. Or whoever ends up taking over as maintainer in the future.

Of course there is technically very little stopping anyone from dumping all the code into a git repo and sending a link out.

...

On 07.10.2011, at 06:47, Robert Elz wrote:

...

First, I am assuming this copy of the list is actually functioning, (and I've just received jhawk's message which demonstrates that it is) I don't believe it has been used for actual messages before that one, but as ado has indicated that the list at elsie has been (for now anyway) terminated - and given the plan was to migrate from it eventually anyway, may never return, we can but hope this version of the list is functional.

Some of you who receive this message may have been removed from the elsie version of the list recently, or altered your subscription details - if that applies to you, use the iana.org message sent on the 1st of this month to all subscribers to their list for instructions on how to modify or delete your subscription.

Don't send requests to me (or anyone else on the list) there's nothing I (or we) can do about it - and most certainly, do not send requests to the list itself asking to be removed.

Unfortunately, there are probably a few people who were added to the elsie list since it was cloned at iana.org but there's nothing much we can do about that - if anyone is contacted by anyone who believes they should be on the list, but is no longer receiving messages, direct them to the iana website for list subscriptions.

Next, while elsie's ftp server is shut down, munnari.oz.au isn't, and the tz database & code remains available from here. Further, I will not respond to requests from (almost) anyone to cease making those files available (including Arthur and Paul - but by all means feel free to try if you need to to satisfy some obligation to cease making the data available - I'll ignore you, but you will at least have used every reasonable effort...)

Second, regardless of this, the world's governments continue to adjust their view of their local timezones & summer time adjustments, so we need to continue updating the database (at least). There are several updates that will be needed soon.

For now, until someone else volunteers, I'm prepared to make the updates, in much the same way that Arthur did, and then make new releases available from munnari's ftp server. I suspect that it is unlikely that either Arthur or Paul will be able to assist much with this in the coming months, so I'm hoping that others will assist where possible.

For now, I'm aware of changes needed for Armenia, Fiji, Bolivia, Brazil, and of course, the changes that (might be) needed for Russia. If there's anything else I missed, please let me know.

Unfortunately, I don't have the sccs (or is it rcs or something these days) master files, so I won't be able to do quite the same job that Arthur did, but I can keep all versions so they can be checked into a version control system later.

It would be good if a few others, especially people in jurisdictions that tend not to simply bow down to US court rulings, would keep copies of the code and data, and make them publicly available via ftp or http (this is not of huge public interest, the resources needed to provide this service should not be very noticeable).

All I know of the lawsuit is what jhawk's message indicated - eventually I assume we'll find out what trademark or patent that someone believes is being infringed (a little hard to believe either, but who knows...)

The URL's of the current versions of the files from munnari.oz.au are ...

ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/tzcode2011i.tar.gz ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/tzdata2011k.tar.gz

and of course, the historical files (most versions that were ever previously released) are in ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/oldtz/

kre

Not a bad idea, but wouldn't there be a concern if the code is stored in a server in the United States? D -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of David Zülke Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 3:39 AM To: Alex Stapleton Cc: tz@iana.org; Robert Elz Subject: Re: [tz] temporary timezone database home ... Not sure how it would change the workflow much. They could "own" the master repos e.g. on GitHub, push changes to it, accept change proposals via Pull Requests, and tag official releases whenever they see fit. Git is great because of its distributed workflow. GitHub is great because it makes collaboration a breeze. Together they're a massive win. David On 07.10.2011, at 12:26, Alex Stapleton wrote:

Content preview: On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:37, David Zülke wrote: > Just an idea, but shouldn't we maybe move the whole thing to GitHub or Bitbucket? > > Cloning and maintaining copies will be a piece of cake then. > > David [...]

Content analysis details: (-1.0 points, 6.0 required)

pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP

On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:37, David Zülke wrote:

...

Just an idea, but shouldn't we maybe move the whole thing to GitHub or Bitbucket?

Cloning and maintaining copies will be a piece of cake then.

David

Personally I think it would ultimately be a good thing but it would change the workflow for Eggert and Olson a lot. And since they are the ones that do (did?) the bulk of the integration work from information provided on the mailing list it should probably be kicked off by one of them. Or whoever ends up taking over as maintainer in the future.

Of course there is technically very little stopping anyone from dumping all the code into a git repo and sending a link out.

...

On 07.10.2011, at 06:47, Robert Elz wrote:

...

First, I am assuming this copy of the list is actually functioning, (and I've just received jhawk's message which demonstrates that it is) I don't believe it has been used for actual messages before that one, but as ado has indicated that the list at elsie has been (for now anyway) terminated - and given the plan was to migrate from it eventually anyway, may never return, we can but hope this version of the list is functional.

Some of you who receive this message may have been removed from the elsie version of the list recently, or altered your subscription details - if that applies to you, use the iana.org message sent on the 1st of this month to all subscribers to their list for instructions on how to modify or delete your subscription.

Don't send requests to me (or anyone else on the list) there's nothing I (or we) can do about it - and most certainly, do not send requests to the list itself asking to be removed.

Unfortunately, there are probably a few people who were added to the elsie list since it was cloned at iana.org but there's nothing much we can do about that - if anyone is contacted by anyone who believes they should be on the list, but is no longer receiving messages, direct them to the iana website for list subscriptions.

Next, while elsie's ftp server is shut down, munnari.oz.au isn't, and the tz database & code remains available from here. Further, I will not respond to requests from (almost) anyone to cease making those files available (including Arthur and Paul - but by all means feel free to try if you need to to satisfy some obligation to cease making the data available - I'll ignore you, but you will at least have used every reasonable effort...)

Second, regardless of this, the world's governments continue to adjust their view of their local timezones & summer time adjustments, so we need to continue updating the database (at least). There are several updates that will be needed soon.

For now, until someone else volunteers, I'm prepared to make the updates, in much the same way that Arthur did, and then make new releases available from munnari's ftp server. I suspect that it is unlikely that either Arthur or Paul will be able to assist much with this in the coming months, so I'm hoping that others will assist where possible.

For now, I'm aware of changes needed for Armenia, Fiji, Bolivia, Brazil, and of course, the changes that (might be) needed for Russia. If there's anything else I missed, please let me know.

Unfortunately, I don't have the sccs (or is it rcs or something these days) master files, so I won't be able to do quite the same job that Arthur did, but I can keep all versions so they can be checked into a version control system later.

It would be good if a few others, especially people in jurisdictions that tend not to simply bow down to US court rulings, would keep copies of the code and data, and make them publicly available via ftp or http (this is not of huge public interest, the resources needed to provide this service should not be very noticeable).

All I know of the lawsuit is what jhawk's message indicated - eventually I assume we'll find out what trademark or patent that someone believes is being infringed (a little hard to believe either, but who knows...)

The URL's of the current versions of the files from munnari.oz.au are ...

ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/tzcode2011i.tar.gz ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/tzdata2011k.tar.gz

and of course, the historical files (most versions that were ever previously released) are in ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/oldtz/

kre

The Debian package eglibc http://packages.debian.org/sid/eglibc-source should be a reasonably safe harbour. Julian -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Alex Stapleton Sent: 07 October 2011 11:26 To: David Zülke Cc: tz@iana.org; Robert Elz Subject: Re: [tz] temporary timezone database home ... On 7 Oct 2011, at 10:37, David Zülke wrote:

Just an idea, but shouldn't we maybe move the whole thing to GitHub or Bitbucket?

Cloning and maintaining copies will be a piece of cake then.

David

Personally I think it would ultimately be a good thing but it would change the workflow for Eggert and Olson a lot. And since they are the ones that do (did?) the bulk of the integration work from information provided on the mailing list it should probably be kicked off by one of them. Or whoever ends up taking over as maintainer in the future. Of course there is technically very little stopping anyone from dumping all the code into a git repo and sending a link out.

On 07.10.2011, at 06:47, Robert Elz wrote:

...

First, I am assuming this copy of the list is actually functioning, (and I've just received jhawk's message which demonstrates that it is) I don't believe it has been used for actual messages before that one, but as ado has indicated that the list at elsie has been (for now anyway) terminated - and given the plan was to migrate from it eventually anyway, may never return, we can but hope this version of the list is functional.

Some of you who receive this message may have been removed from the elsie version of the list recently, or altered your subscription details - if that applies to you, use the iana.org message sent on the 1st of this month to all subscribers to their list for instructions on how to modify or delete your subscription.

Don't send requests to me (or anyone else on the list) there's nothing I (or we) can do about it - and most certainly, do not send requests to the list itself asking to be removed.

Unfortunately, there are probably a few people who were added to the elsie list since it was cloned at iana.org but there's nothing much we can do about that - if anyone is contacted by anyone who believes they should be on the list, but is no longer receiving messages, direct them to the iana website for list subscriptions.

Next, while elsie's ftp server is shut down, munnari.oz.au isn't, and the tz database & code remains available from here. Further, I will not respond to requests from (almost) anyone to cease making those files available (including Arthur and Paul - but by all means feel free to try if you need to to satisfy some obligation to cease making the data available - I'll ignore you, but you will at least have used every reasonable effort...)

Second, regardless of this, the world's governments continue to adjust their view of their local timezones & summer time adjustments, so we need to continue updating the database (at least). There are several updates that will be needed soon.

For now, until someone else volunteers, I'm prepared to make the updates, in much the same way that Arthur did, and then make new releases available from munnari's ftp server. I suspect that it is unlikely that either Arthur or Paul will be able to assist much with this in the coming months, so I'm hoping that others will assist where possible.

For now, I'm aware of changes needed for Armenia, Fiji, Bolivia, Brazil, and of course, the changes that (might be) needed for Russia. If there's anything else I missed, please let me know.

Unfortunately, I don't have the sccs (or is it rcs or something these days) master files, so I won't be able to do quite the same job that Arthur did, but I can keep all versions so they can be checked into a version control system later.

It would be good if a few others, especially people in jurisdictions that tend not to simply bow down to US court rulings, would keep copies of the code and data, and make them publicly available via ftp or http (this is not of huge public interest, the resources needed to provide this service should not be very noticeable).

All I know of the lawsuit is what jhawk's message indicated - eventually I assume we'll find out what trademark or patent that someone believes is being infringed (a little hard to believe either, but who knows...)

The URL's of the current versions of the files from munnari.oz.au are ...

ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/tzcode2011i.tar.gz ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/tzdata2011k.tar.gz

and of course, the historical files (most versions that were ever previously released) are in ftp://munnari.oz.au/pub/oldtz/

kre

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