proposed changes: past Altai/Tomsk time zone shifts
A couple of additional tidbits, probably not really contributing to the Russian timezones discussion, but possibly interesting to some. Most details are from memory; I have not the time to look up all references. 1) Back then another contributor to the TZ list looked up which districts (ulusy) of Sakha (Jakutija) were in which timezone. I merely incorporated his research into my report on all Russian timezones. I tried to give him credits, but his name was somehow lost in the comments in the TZ file. I forgot, I have lost the emails, if reference is needed: please look it up yourself in the TZ mail archive. 2) Transliteration scheme: back then I chose for the Chemical Abstracts transliteration which had 2 advantages: (a) two-way, (b) Posix 1 compatible. Two-way means: the transliterated text can be transformed back into Russian again. With schemes like GOST 7.79 (ISO 9) and several other schemes, only one-way transliteration is possible. Why Posix 1? Because the text files in the TZ distribution have no document type definition, nor any character set designation. Furthermore, the rest of the database and the software should be Posix 1 compatible, I learned from the TZ maintainers. Hence: thou shalt not use any characters beyond 7-bits ASCII or so. 3) Districts in Sakha are in this republic called ulusy (nominative case; singular: ulus), in several other Russian publications they are called rajony (singular: rajon). The law (see my point 5) gives both terms. I think "districts" is close enough for a text comment in English. 4) With respect to the transliteration scheme in the comments: what are we talking about? At any rate not about any vital part of the TZ software. I wouldn't give it much more attention, if I may suggest. 5) The law (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/) states very clearly which Sakha districts are in which timezone. Please check this for current times in the TZ database, if not done already. There is however one not so clear part, namely the Newsiberian Islands. From memory I recall that one TZ contributor said they are administered from the central government of the republic. Heaving read several texts and looked at a couple of Russian maps, I'm inclined to believe the islands are part of the Bulunskij Ulus. Regretfully I have no definitive reference for you. Then again: how many people actually live in this reserve? So, what is the effect if we put it into the wrong timezone? Oscar van Vlijmen
1) Back then another contributor to the TZ list looked up which districts (ulusy) of Sakha (Jakutija) were in which timezone. I merely incorporated his research into my report on all Russian timezones. I tried to give him credits, but his name was somehow lost in the comments in the TZ file. I forgot, I have lost the emails, if reference is needed: please look it up yourself in the TZ mail archive. Thanks a lot for that clarification. That answers the question what your source was.
2) Transliteration scheme: back then I chose for the Chemical Abstracts transliteration which had 2 advantages: (a) two-way, (b) Posix 1 compatible. Two-way means: the transliterated text can be transformed back into Russian again. With schemes like GOST 7.79 (ISO 9) and several other schemes, only one-way transliteration is possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9 is two way, isn't it?
3) Districts in Sakha are in this republic called ulusy (nominative case; singular: ulus), in several other Russian publications they are called rajony (singular: rajon). The law (see my point 5) gives both terms. I think "districts" is close enough for a text comment in English. http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/ улус (ulus) not found on that page
4) With respect to the transliteration scheme in the comments: what are we talking about? At any rate not about any vital part of the TZ software. I wouldn't give it much more attention, if I may suggest. If you open the europe file and search for certain entities it helps they are spelled one way throughout the document. Contributors to zones using different romanizations are in a disadvantage compared to e.g. contributors to US zones.
5) The law (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/federal/346568/) states very clearly which Sakha districts are in which timezone. Please check this for current times in the TZ database, if not done already. Done, at various instances, earliest I found was by Alexander Krivenyshev Timeline compiled yesterday http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2012-May/017688.html
There is however one not so clear part, namely the Newsiberian Islands. From memory I recall that one TZ contributor said they are administered from the central government of the republic. Heaving read several texts and looked at a couple of Russian maps, I'm inclined to believe the islands are part of the Bulunskij Ulus. Regretfully I have no definitive reference for you. 2011-09-20 Tobias Conradi reports that the New Siberian Islands are maybe not part of the Ulus-system http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-September/008836.html
Then again: how many people actually live in this reserve? So, what is the effect if we put it into the wrong timezone? The database would contain a bug according to tzcode2011i/Theory:
----- Scope of the tz database ----- The tz database attempts to record the history and predicted future of all computer-based clocks that track civil time. To represent this data, the world is partitioned into regions whose clocks all agree about time stamps that occur after the somewhat-arbitrary cutoff point of the POSIX Epoch (1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC). -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 18:43:02 +0200 From: Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAAGevbXDvN47usaq3DXj-Y6+M8PCQx3vmVTrc4RcpJLBhuOubg@mail.gmail.com> | > So, what is the effect | > if we put it into the wrong timezone? | The database would contain a bug according to tzcode2011i/Theory: No, not necessarily - it doesn't really matter if we guess incorrectly what time conversion happens at some particular place, only if there is no zone that represents the correct conversions for some place or other. Note the theory file (which we could adjust if we ever needed to incidentally) just says that the world is partitioned into regions, not that this project is attempting to specify the boundaries of those regions. Nor does it say that the regions must be connected, or anything much about them, other than that they exist. For the islands in question, provided that we have some zone defined that correctly represents the time conversions used there, then we have no bug worth worrying much about. If the comments in the zone file are wrong, we should certainly fix them sometime, but there's no great urgency to do that - they have no real importance and are generally only ever even seen by the people on this list (no-one else is really very likely to read through all of that stuff - zic certainly doesn't care.) kre
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Robert Elz <kre@munnari.oz.au> wrote:
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 18:43:02 +0200 From: Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAAGevbXDvN47usaq3DXj-Y6+M8PCQx3vmVTrc4RcpJLBhuOubg@mail.gmail.com>
| > So, what is the effect | > if we put it into the wrong timezone? | The database would contain a bug according to tzcode2011i/Theory:
No, not necessarily Putting something into the wrong timezone is by definition having a bug in the TIMEZONE database.
- it doesn't really matter if we guess incorrectly what time conversion happens at some particular place, only if there is no zone that represents the correct conversions for some place or other. ???
Note the theory file (which we could adjust if we ever needed to incidentally) just says that the world is partitioned into regions, not that this project is attempting to specify the boundaries of those regions. There are not only attempts of doing so but successful definitions of boundaries.
Nor does it say that the regions must be connected, ????
or anything much about them, other than that they exist.
For the islands in question, provided that we have some zone defined that correctly represents the time conversions used there, then we have no bug worth worrying much about. If that would be true, the project wouldn't exist in that form. Because anyone could write down all offsets with full seconds from 0 second to e.g. 30 * 60 * 60, assign names to them and would be finished. Because there would be always some zone that has the definition.
If the comments in the zone file are wrong, we should certainly fix them sometime, Now you change your opinion?
but there's no great urgency to do that - they have no real importance and are generally only ever even seen by the people on this list Any prove that all the view at http://stats.grok.se/en/201204/List_of_tz_database_time_zones are from list members?
(no-one else is really very likely to read through all of that stuff - zic certainly doesn't care.) I read the comments before I was a list member.
It would be nice if you could bring more evidence for all the claims you make on this list here. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 04:11:55 +0200 From: Tobias Conradi <tobias.conradi@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAAGevbVsY5SEs=3NGyau7T_aLW+W0cV18tofP3d_aDfjTw1M0w@mail.gmail.com> | Putting something into the wrong timezone is by definition having a | bug in the TIMEZONE database. No, once again, it is not, or not in any way that is important. We make the various timezones, we do not assign them to locations, other than for our convenience in making sure that we have all of the zones defined that we should have. Certainly, if we have those assignments incorrect, they can get fixed - just as we would fix an erroneous comment in the source code of the C files if there was such an erroneous comment, but neither of those is a bug in any real sense. | If that would be true, the project wouldn't exist in that form. | Because anyone could write down all offsets with full seconds from 0 | second to e.g. 30 * 60 * 60, assign names to them and would be | finished. No, that's approximately what existed (in some implementations anyway) when we started - the timezone isn't just the offset from UTC, it is a list of changes of that offset (when summer time started and ended in various years, when the zone offset altered, ...) That complete set of data is a timezone for our purposes, and getting all of those defined (correctly) is what we're attempting to do. Specific locations are only relevant first as picking one to provide a name for the timezone (and the theory file explains how that's done, it isn't relevant to the current discussion) and second, as a way of verifying that we aren't missing a zone definition. | > If the comments in the zone file are wrong, | > we should certainly fix them sometime, | Now you change your opinion? No, not at all, we fix erroneous comments, but erroneous comments are not a bug, as they don't affect the results, they're just a minor insignificant error. Like any error, such things should get fixed, but like other irrelevant errors, fixing them isn't urgent. | Any prove that all the view at | http://stats.grok.se/en/201204/List_of_tz_database_time_zones | are from list members? List members can do whatever they like, and some of the people on this list (and associated with this project) certainly do attempt to make maps of timezones in one way or another. That's all fine, but it is not this project. | >(no-one else is really very likely to | > read through all of that stuff - zic certainly doesn't care.) | I read the comments before I was a list member. Sure, there are people who look at this stuff, but not very many compared with the number of people who use the real product of this project - which is the zone database. kre
On Fri, 04 May 2012, Tobias Conradi wrote:
So, what is the effect if we put it into the wrong timezone? The database would contain a bug according to tzcode2011i/Theory: [snip quote from theory file]
When somebody asks "what would be wrong?", replying "there would be a bug" is not very useful to readers who don't share your viewpoint. It's much more useful if you explain why you think there would be a bug, or what you think the bug would be, or what the observable consequences of the bug would be. --apb (Alan Barrett)
So, what is the effect if we put it into the wrong timezone?
The database would contain a bug according to tzcode2011i/Theory: [snip quote from theory file]
When somebody asks "what would be wrong?", replying "there would be a bug" is not very useful to readers who don't share your viewpoint. But no one asked on-list "what would be wrong?"
It's much more useful if you explain why you think there would be a bug, That's by definition. The effect of putting a part of the world into the wrong timezone within the timezone database, would be that the database contains a bug.
or what you think the bug would be, No one asked that on-list.
-- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
participants (4)
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Alan Barrett -
OvV_HN -
Robert Elz -
Tobias Conradi