Proposed correction for zone.tab and Link: Europe/Uzhgorod to Europe/Uzhhorod
Dear tz database maintainers, I would like to propose a correction to the spelling of the Ukrainian city Uzhhorod in the tz database. Currently, the city is referenced as "Uzhgorod" in `zone.tab` and as a Link target: In `zone.tab`: UA +4837+02218 Europe/Uzhgorod Zakarpattya west Link definition (in the `europe` data file): Link Europe/Kyiv Europe/Uzhgorod The spelling "Uzhgorod" (with a 'g') appears to be a transliteration from the Russian language form of the city's name ("Ужгород"). However, Uzhhorod is a city in Ukraine. The official Ukrainian name is "Ужгород". According to the current official Ukrainian national system for romanization of Ukrainian Cyrillic (approved by Resolution No. 55 of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine, January 27, 2010), the Ukrainian letter "г" (which is present in "Ужгород") is transliterated as "h". Therefore, the correct romanized form from Ukrainian is "Uzhhorod". This spelling ("Uzhhorod") is consistently used by official Ukrainian sources, including the Uzhhorod City Council (e.g., uzhhorod-rada.gov.ua) and in national legislative documents. Given this, I propose the following changes for accuracy and consistency with Ukrainian national standards: 1. Update the entry in `zone.tab` to: `UA +4837+02218 Europe/Uzhhorod Zakarpattya west` 2. Update the Link target name to `Europe/Uzhhorod`: `Link Europe/Kyiv Europe/Uzhhorod` This would align the tz database with the official and correct transliteration of the city's name from its native language. Thank you for your time and consideration. Sincerely, Arsenii
On Thu, 15 May 2025 at 15:58, Sorel Si via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Currently, the city is referenced as "Uzhgorod" in `zone.tab` and as a Link target: In `zone.tab`: UA +4837+02218 Europe/Uzhgorod Zakarpattya west
You appear to be working from an older (and possibly downstream-modified) version of tzdb. The zone in question was moved from the 'europe' file to 'backzone' in release 2022d and, as such, is no longer referenced in the 'zone*.tab' files. See: https://github.com/eggert/tz/commit/4dffd914cde01aa84a09e59f9f144ff24d5cd200 The reason I suspect you're working from a copy that has been modified downstream is that you cited a "Zakarpattya west" comment in zone.tab, but I can't find that phrasing anywhere in our development repository's history, so it must be coming from elsewhere.
Given this, I propose the following changes
Any remaining references to Europe/Uzhgorod exist for backwards-compatibility purposes only. In almost all cases, Europe/Kyiv should be used instead. -- Tim Parenti
Tim Parenti replied to Sorel Si:
The zone in question was moved from the 'europe' file to 'backzone' in release 2022d and, as such, is no longer referenced in the 'zone*.tab' files. ... Any remaining references to Europe/Uzhgorod exist for backwards- compatibility purposes only. In almost all cases, Europe/Kyiv should be used instead.
There’s another problem, though. The tz database is not a gazetteer or other official reference to the “correct” spelling of city names. The identifiers in the tz database are not meant to be presented directly to users as part of a UI. Rather, tzids are internal identifiers, sort of like variable names or URLs or API endpoints. They are intended to be stable. When you change one, you create an incompatibility with systems that expect the old name. The theory file says to “Use mainstream English spelling” in place names, which often leads to requests like this on the basis that the locally preferred spelling or transliteration must automatically be the mainstream English spelling. That’s not reality. It takes time for another government’s preference to take hold in English usage—we still don’t really use “Czechia” in the US, and might never do so—but even if and when it finally does, the stability problem remains. Although the full tz database includes a system of links, such that clients looking for an old tzid can have it automagically mapped to the new one, there are systems out there that don’t use this mechanism. They look up the names directly, or they provide mappings between tzids and time zone names used by other systems. (CLDR is an example of this.) When a tzid is changed, it breaks the client, at least until the maintainers of the client get a chance to react with an update. The theory file goes on to say, “If a name is changed, put its old spelling in the 'backward' file as a link to the new spelling. This means old spellings will continue to work.” This is great for clients that understand ‘backward’ and linking, but breaks the others. I would prefer to see the administrative policy changed in the opposite direction that Sorel has in mind, making the _new_ spellings the aliases, and keeping the existing identifiers stable for systems that need that stability. (Lest there be any misunderstanding, this has nothing to do with being pro-Ukraine or pro-Russia.) -- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
On 2025-05-15 16:00, Doug Ewell via tz wrote:
Tim Parenti replied to Sorel Si:
The zone in question was moved from the 'europe' file to 'backzone' in release 2022d and, as such, is no longer referenced in the 'zone*.tab' files. ... Any remaining references to Europe/Uzhgorod exist for backwards- compatibility purposes only. In almost all cases, Europe/Kyiv should be used instead.
There’s another problem, though. The tz database is not a gazetteer or other official reference to the “correct” spelling of city names. The identifiers in the tz database are not meant to be presented directly to users as part of a UI.
Rather, tzids are internal identifiers, sort of like variable names or URLs or API endpoints. They are intended to be stable. When you change one, you create an incompatibility with systems that expect the old name.
The theory file says to “Use mainstream English spelling” in place names, which often leads to requests like this on the basis that the locally preferred spelling or transliteration must automatically be the mainstream English spelling. That’s not reality. It takes time for another government’s preference to take hold in English usage—we still don’t really use “Czechia” in the US, and might never do so—but even if and when it finally does, the stability problem remains.
Although the full tz database includes a system of links, such that clients looking for an old tzid can have it automagically mapped to the new one, there are systems out there that don’t use this mechanism. They look up the names directly, or they provide mappings between tzids and time zone names used by other systems. (CLDR is an example of this.) When a tzid is changed, it breaks the client, at least until the maintainers of the client get a chance to react with an update.
The theory file goes on to say, “If a name is changed, put its old spelling in the 'backward' file as a link to the new spelling. This means old spellings will continue to work.” This is great for clients that understand ‘backward’ and linking, but breaks the others. I would prefer to see the administrative policy changed in the opposite direction that Sorel has in mind, making the _new_ spellings the aliases, and keeping the existing identifiers stable for systems that need that stability.
(Lest there be any misunderstanding, this has nothing to do with being pro-Ukraine or pro-Russia.)
A couple of other factors ignored by those promoting identifer changes: - script transliteration rules from other alphabets/abjabs to Latin scripts give zero consideration to pronunciation rules in other languages, and lack of any accents in English, nor variations in those across the different cultures in which the language is embedded - outside of technical and diplomatic circles, there is little to no interest or dissemination of such matters, and about zero impact on the general population; most of which no longer pay to read paper or online media, may not have access to or watch broadcast television news services, and pay to access only what interests or amuses them. This may well apply to many of us, more to younger folks, whose exposure may be more limited to the contents of free social media platforms they sample. So "mainstream English spelling" may take generations to change and vary with the culture: some common usages in mainstream media seem anachronistic to me. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada La perfection est atteinte Perfection is achieved non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter not when there is no more to add mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retrancher but when there is no more to cut -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
On Fri, May 16, 2025 at 12:01 AM Doug Ewell via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
There’s another problem, though. The tz database is not a gazetteer or other official reference to the “correct” spelling of city names. The identifiers in the tz database are not meant to be presented directly to users as part of a UI.
Rather, tzids are internal identifiers, sort of like variable names or URLs or API endpoints. They are intended to be stable. When you change one, you create an incompatibility with systems that expect the old name.
The theory file says to “Use mainstream English spelling” in place names, which often leads to requests like this on the basis that the locally preferred spelling or transliteration must automatically be the mainstream English spelling. That’s not reality. It takes time for another government’s preference to take hold in English usage—we still don’t really use “Czechia” in the US, and might never do so—but even if and when it finally does, the stability problem remains.
And you should change Rome to Roma! (this is a joke, I actually understand that the tzdb uses English names. Rome/Roma and Uzhgorod/Uzhhorod is the same case though, with the aggravation that Uzhgorod has been the official transliteration since the stone age and Uzhhorod is the result of a very recent change in the official transliteration...)
(Lest there be any misunderstanding, this has nothing to do with being pro-Ukraine or pro-Russia.)
Absolutely.
participants (5)
-
Brian Inglis -
Doug Ewell -
Pierpaolo Bernardi -
Sorel Si -
Tim Parenti