Hi, Thanks for the effort to maintain the tz packages. Recently, I've seen people complain that in file zone.tab, entries regarding China (CN) are not right. They are: CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin north Manchuria CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai China coast CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chungking China mountains CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet & Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar Eastern Turkestan There are several problems: 1. City names are in old form. Now there is a standard way (pinyin) to write it and it should be used; 2. Comments are not quite right. This may due to the historic reasons. Because of these problems, when users in China are presented a form to pick a time zone, they are very confused. To correct this, the first thing should be noted is that there is only ONE timezone in China. This is well documentd in file asia. Second, to reflect the current practice, zone.tab may be modified as: CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Beijing Time - Heilongjiang CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai Beijing Time CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing Beijing Time - Sichuan CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Beijing Time - Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashi Beijing Time - Xinjiang Or just one Beijin Time entry. But I really don't know how zone.tab and asia files are related to each other. So the above changes should only be a reference. Best regards, Yao Zhang
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:25:08 -0400 (EDT) From: <yaoz@vidar.niaaa.nih.gov>
1. City names are in old form. Now there is a standard way (pinyin) to write it and it should be used;
The tz database uses the most common spelling in ordinary English. For example, it uses "Rome", even though "Roma" is the correct Italian name. When I first added those entries, the pinyin method was not the most common spelling in English, and my impression is that "Chungking" and "Kashgar" are still quite commonly used in English, so it's not entirely clear to me that the time is right to switch to pinyin. (If I'm incorrect about this, please let me know.) However, I think it's quite reasonable to support both spellings, and so I'll add aliases for the pinyin spellings in my next proposed patch.
2. Comments are not quite right. This may due to the historic reasons. Because of these problems, when users in China are presented a form to pick a time zone, they are very confused.
How about if we make the following change for now? CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai most locations CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Heilongjiang CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chungking China mountains CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet & most of Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar Eastern Turkestan The "most locations" phrase should reduce some of the confusion; it's used for other countries that have a similar situation (e.g. Chile, New Zealand). I'm not sure about using the label "Beijing Time" for all of these locations. (Don't people say "China time" more often than "Beijing Time"?) Ideally the five entries would clearly delineate the boundaries between the five regions of China that have different time zone histories, but I don't have that information to hand right now.
----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Eggert <eggert@twinsun.com> To: <yaoz@vidar.niaaa.nih.gov> Cc: <tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Corrections of zone.tab for CN entries
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:25:08 -0400 (EDT) From: <yaoz@vidar.niaaa.nih.gov>
1. City names are in old form. Now there is a standard way (pinyin) to write it and it should be used;
The tz database uses the most common spelling in ordinary English. For example, it uses "Rome", even though "Roma" is the correct Italian name. When I first added those entries, the pinyin method was not the most common spelling in English, and my impression is that "Chungking" and "Kashgar" are still quite commonly used in English, so it's not entirely clear to me that the time is right to switch to pinyin. (If I'm incorrect about this, please let me know.)
My understanding was that the pinyin system is favored in the People's Republic of China, and that either the pinyin or the older system (Wade-Giles?) is acceptable in Taiwan. I have heard, although I cannot confirm, that the postal system in the PRC will not even deliver mail if the addresses are written in Wade-Giles. The major English-language news services switched to pinyin in the early 1980's. It would appear that (for mainland China tz issues, at least) the time is definitely right to switch to pinyin. Brian Garrett
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 15:56:32 -0400 (EDT) From: <yaoz@vidar.niaaa.nih.gov>
The way I submitted to you is following examples of US. That is "time - state (province)".
That's designed for the US, which has multiple time zones. China has just one time zone, so it's not that useful in that context. Programs that use zone.tab are expected to narrow in on the country first; once CN has been selected, there's little point to saying "Beijing Time" for every entry.
a. Urumqi is in Xinjiang so it maybe better say "Xinjiang & Tibet".
The comment is intended to identify the region in question. The region does not include all of Xinjiang, just most of it.
b. Kashgar is also in Xinjiang and there is no such region as "Eastern Turkestan". That region is commonly call "Southern Xinjiang".
In English, the region is far more commonly called Eastern Turkestan, even today. At least, that's what Google says (2650 hits versus 766).
It seems to me those entries exists because historically, they are in different time zones (as you specified in "asia" file). But I've seen Linux users in China wondering "Why Shanghai, Harbin, etc. are picked up but not Beijing or my city?
It's a long story, but it's the same reason that Los Angeles and Chicago have entries, but Washington, DC and Houston do not. It's merely a matter of which city is the largest in a particular region. For more details, please see the Theory file.
On TV, radio, it is always saying "It is now 20' clock Beijing Time." I haven't heard of "China time" before.
Interesting. Are these announcements in the Chinese language, or in the English language?
In 'asia', you are saying before 1980, there are still 5 timezones in China.
Yes, that's what Shanks (our best source) says. But it is not authoritative and I suspect that it is incorrect. Among other things I tend to believe Bob Devine's remark about China having two time zones (Beijing and Urumqi) at some point in its recent history. If you can find something better (preferably an official government source or something like that), I'd appreciate it.
From: "Brian Garrett" <mgy1912@home.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:57:18 -0700
My understanding was that the pinyin system is favored in the People's Republic of China, and that either the pinyin or the older system (Wade-Giles?) is acceptable in Taiwan.
It's a bit more complicated than that. The PRC doesn't merely "favor" pinyin: hanyu pinyin is official government policy and an international standard (ISO 7098:1991). Taiwan has never had an official government-wide policy, but has muddled through (e.g. signs often use Wade-Giles without apostrophes, which is a bit like using English but omitting the letter "i"). Many in Taiwan oppose hanyu pinyin at least partly for political reasons. Some have drafted tongyong pinyin, a different pinyin variant that is a bit friendlier to English speakers (e.g., it drops the umlaut and gets rid of the q's, x's, and zh's). (Had enough? :-) Anyway, it's safe to say that the matter of pinyin is still controversial within Taiwan.
The major English-language news services switched to pinyin in the early 1980's.
It's not clear to me that "Kashi" versus "Kashgar" is a pinyin versus non-pinyin issue, as the name "Kashgar" is not a Chinese one. "Kashi" is the pinyin version of the Chinese name for "Kashgar". The city's population is about 3/4 Uighur, so calling it "Kashi" is a bit like calling the capital of Mongolia "Ulan Bator" (the anglicization of the Russian name). I just visited the BBC and found two instances of "Kashi" but 7 instances of "Kashgar". For an example of the latter, please see: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/china/china2.shtml>. I also used Google to do searches for "Kashgar China" and "Kashi China", in both cases looking only for English-language hits. Google reported about 2910 hits for Kashi and about 6780 for Kashgar. So it appears to me that "Kashgar" is still the more common spelling by far. "Chongqing" versus "Chungking" is another matter. This is clearly a Chinese name, so it's a pinyin versus non-pinyin issue only. Also, Google (English-only) reports about 55,600 hits for Chongqing, but only about 12,700 for "Chungking". I recall the ratio being the other way when I researched this matter a few years ago, so it appears that common usage really has switched here, and it's time to update the tz database.
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:41:53 +0200 From: Oscar van Vlijmen <o.van.vlijmen@tip.nl>
I would suggest:
CN +3114+12128 Asia/Beijing most eastern locations
Shanghai has more people than Beijing, so I'd rather stick with Shanghai, as per the Theory file.
CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing Chongqing - central China
But it's not just Chongqing -- it's most of the (mountainous) central part of China.
If you start with 2 and would like to arrive at 5, you'll have to add 3. This is a solid rule with no exceptions. Choosing the best city representing a region is according to the tz-Theory file a process governed by a solid rule, but it looks really silly if there is in a China database-part no reference to Beijing. Choosing Shanghai because it happens to have a larger population than Beijing is following the rules far too strictly. The same can be said for Viet Nam: Saigon is larger, but capital Ha Noi would be a more logical choice. Yes I know, we discussed this already from 2000-09-26 to 2000-10-05. But, look at this example. Africa tz-file. South Africa: Cape Town is the legislative capital, Bloemfontein is the judicial capital, Pretoria is the administrative capital. Guess what? The tz-database has Johannesburg as representative city. Why? According to the UN Population Count website (http://www.un.org/Depts/unsd/demog/ctry.htm) Johannesburg has fewer inhabitants (712507) than 'winner' Pretoria (854616), but Pretoria has not been chosen for the tz-database. So there exists an exception from the solid Theory-file rules. Why not Beijing and Ha Noi as other useful exceptions? "Eastern Turkistan (Turkestan), Uyghuristan, Uyghuria, Chinese Turkistan, Xinjiang, Sinkiang, Uyghur Autonomous Region." - Whatever. http://www.ccs.uky.edu/~rakhim/et.html (WWW Virtual Library for Eastern Turkestan.) Beijing time, China time. I get the impression that 'Beijing time' is used by Chinese sites with an English section, whereas 'China time' is used by some American sites. For those who are interested: a nice overview of the pinyin & tongyong (amongst others) romanizations: http://www.romanization.com/ Regards, Oscar van Vlijmen 2001-09-25
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:16:13 +0200 From: Oscar van Vlijmen <o.van.vlijmen@tip.nl>
The same can be said for Viet Nam: Saigon is larger, but capital Ha Noi would be a more logical choice.
I'd rather stick to the simpler and less-political rule. Admittedly politics cannot be excluded entirely.
Johannesburg has fewer inhabitants (712507) than 'winner' Pretoria (854616), but Pretoria has not been chosen for the tz-database.
But Johannesburg's metropolitan-area population is considerably larger than Pretoria's. I'm not so much worried about the municipal city limits, as by how important the center of population is.
Yes, that's a good source, albeit a partisan one. I'll know that pinyin has finally taken over when we English-speakers normally call the capital of Taiwan "Taibei". (:-) But I suppose I should add "Taibei" and "T'ai-pei" in the comments for Asia/Taipei.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 04:23:42PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote:
b. Kashgar is also in Xinjiang and there is no such region as "Eastern Turkestan". That region is commonly call "Southern Xinjiang".
In English, the region is far more commonly called Eastern Turkestan, even today. At least, that's what Google says (2650 hits versus 766).
Actually, if my understanding is correct, the term "Eastern Turkestan" refers to the historic name of the region, as a country, when it was outside China's rule for brief periods in history. This region returned to Chinese rule in the 19th century during the Qing Dynasty, and called "Xinjiang", Chinese for "New Territory". Nowadays, the whole province is called Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. Reasons that "Eastern Turkestan" came up more often than "southern Xinjiang" include: * Eastern Turkestan = Xinjiang, not just southern Xinjiang (AFAIK). Try a search on Xinjiang vs. Eastern Turkestan, and Xinjiang is far far more common by orders of magnitude. Google says 103000 hits versus 3160. (and 2600 for "east turkestan", 1190 for "southern xinjiang"... Wow, Google has grown! :-) * The term Xinjiang is relatively newer (since 19th century), and most history books written before that period uses the old name. Xinjiang was called Xiyu (the West Region), Huigu, and a few other names in Chinese literature. * There are some vocal separatist movements who want to "Free Eastern Turkestan", not too unlike "Free Tibet"... Indeed, it seems that nowadays only the separatists are calling the modern Xinjiang province as "Eastern Turkestan", to be interpreted as the Eastern Country of the Turks. Needless to say, at least some Chinese would find that offensive. Also, as a Hong-Kong Chinese myself, I had no idea what "Eastern Turkestan" is until I actually looked it up on the Internet. I am sure most Chinese, including the Uygur and Han people, would be scratching their heads wondering what "Eastern Turkestan" is. Besides, it appears that Eastern Turkestan = the whole Xinjiang, not just part of it, so again, it is not appropriate to call that timezone "Eastern Turkestan" when it is just the westmost region surrounding Kashgar that is within that timezone. Therefore, I recommend changing the comment to something more informative west Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region (Eastern Turkestan), China That should better suit the needs of both Chinese and non-Chinese. :-) I have also revised other comment entries for China to make them more informative. Seriously, we Chinese are utterly confused when we are asked to choose a timezone during Linux installation. I myself had no idea why the 5 cities were chosen until I finally compared a world timezone map with a China map. :-) In fact, ALL major Chinese Linux distributions have edited zone.tab to add Asia/Beijing and to revise the comments. (Turbolinux Chinese and Red Flag Linux, for instance.) So, this does point to a real usability (not political) problem. Therefore, I have made all 5 comments more verbose. They may be long, but not as long as a few entries for Canada. :-) I have also changed "Macao" to "Macau". Why? :-) 1. Macau is the official name (in both English and Portuguese). See www.macau.gov.mo, for example. 2. On recent trips to Macau, I can no longer find any signs that say "Macao". 3. ISO 3166 says MO = Macau in English; MO = Macao in French. 4. On Google, Macau: 810000 hits; Macao: 311000 hits. A patch is attached in this message. Please verify and apply. Many thanks! :-)
merely a matter of which city is the largest in a particular region. For more details, please see the Theory file.
On TV, radio, it is always saying "It is now 20' clock Beijing Time." I haven't heard of "China time" before.
Interesting. Are these announcements in the Chinese language, or in the English language?
I would guess both. Let me watch CCTV more often. :-) Anyhow, it would actually sound weird if someone says "Xianzai shi Zhongguo shijian xiawu liang dianzhong." (It is now 2 o'clock China Time.)
It's not clear to me that "Kashi" versus "Kashgar" is a pinyin versus non-pinyin issue, as the name "Kashgar" is not a Chinese one. "Kashi" is the pinyin version of the Chinese name for "Kashgar". The city's population is about 3/4 Uighur, so calling it "Kashi" is a bit like calling the capital of Mongolia "Ulan Bator" (the anglicization of the Russian name).
According to the Xinjiang provincial web site, "Kashi" is short for "Kashige'er", which is the long-form Chinese name for "Kashgar". Anyhow, personally, I think "Kashige'er" and "Kashgar" are close enough, so I am not too worried about it either. :-) Cheers, Anthony -- Anthony Fok Tung-Ling ThizLinux Laboratory <anthony@thizlinux.com> http://www.thizlinux.com/ Debian Chinese Project <foka@debian.org> http://www.debian.org/intl/zh/ Come visit Our Lady of Victory Camp! http://www.olvc.ab.ca/
Thanks for your careful analyis. Some comments:
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:24:20 +0800 From: Anthony Fok <anthony@thizlinux.com>
In English, the region is far more commonly called Eastern Turkestan, even today. At least, that's what Google says (2650 hits versus 766).
the term "Eastern Turkestan" refers to the historic name of the region, as a country, when it was outside China's rule for brief periods in history.
OK, sorry, then I misunderstood the boundaries. As far as I know, though, the region was not controlled by China until after the Manchus conquered it in 1759, so it was independent (or anarchic :-) for more than just "brief periods".
west Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region (Eastern Turkestan), China
Wow, that's quite a mouthful. How about just "southwest Xinjiang" instead? That's shorter.
I have also changed "Macao" to "Macau". Why? :-) 1. Macau is the official name (in both English and Portuguese). See www.macau.gov.mo, for example. 2. On recent trips to Macau, I can no longer find any signs that say "Macao". 3. ISO 3166 says MO = Macau in English; MO = Macao in French. 4. On Google, Macau: 810000 hits; Macao: 311000 hits.
Sounds good; thanks.
+CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai Beijing, Shanghai, Guangdong, and most eastern locations in China +CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin northeast China - Heilongjiang +CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing central China - Gansu, Guangdong, Guizhou, Ningxia, Shaanxi, Sichuan, Yunnan, etc. +CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet (Xizang) & most of Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Regions, China +CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar west Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region (Eastern Turkestan), China
Hmm, that can't be right: you've got Guangdong in two different zones. How about something like this instead? I'll try to see if I can come up with a more complete list of provinces, but I don't want the comments field to be so large that 'tzselect' produces confusing output. CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai east China - Beijing, Guangdong, Shanghai, etc. CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Heilongjiang CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing central China - Gansu, Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, etc. CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet & most of Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar southwest Xinjiang
In reply to Paul Eggert's message:
Van: Paul Eggert <eggert@twinsun.com> Datum: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:48:11 -0800 (PST) Aan: anthony@thizlinux.com Cc: mgy1912@home.com, tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov, yaoz@vidar.niaaa.nih.gov Onderwerp: Re: Corrections of zone.tab for CN entries Terugverzonden van: tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov Terugverzonden op: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:48:59 -0500 (EST)
This email seems to be a reply to a previously send email, but I didn't receive the original mail from Anthony Fok through the tz-list. The original discussion thread started Sept. 24 2001.
I'll try to see if I can come up with a more complete list of provinces, but I don't want the comments field to be so large that 'tzselect' produces confusing output.
Listed below is a complete list of the current administrative regions of China. The Chinese Central Government has divided China into different regions, which consists of : 23 Provinces 5 Autonomous Regions 4 Municipalities 1 Special Administrative Region The provinces with their capitals are: Anhui - Hefei Fujian - Fuzhou Gansu - Lanzhou Guangdong - Guangzhou Guizhou - Guiyang Hainan - Haikou Hebei - Shijiazhuang Heilongjiang - Harbin Henan - Zhengzhou Hubei - Wuhan Hunan - Changsha Jiangsu - Nanjing Jiangxi - Nanchang Jilin - Changchun Liaoning - Shenyang Qinghai - Xining Shaanxi - Xian Shandong - Jinan Shanxi - Taiyuan Sichuan - Chengdu Taiwan - Taipei (!) Yunnan - Kunming Zhejiang - Hangzhou The autonomous regions with their capitals are: Guangxi Zhuang - Nanning Nei Monggol (Inner Mongolia) - Hohhot Ningxia Hui - Yinchuan Xizang (Tibet) - Lhasa Xinjiang Uigur (or ... Uygur; chinese prefer Uigur) - Urumqi The 4 municipalities are: Beijing Chongqing Shanghai Tianjin The special administrative region is: Hong Kong Source: Tiglion Consultancy Company Limited http://www.travel.com.hk/china/index.htm (This source seems to be in error in listing Ningxia both as province as well as autonomous region; the latter is true). See also: http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/chinap.htm A compilation of many sources. Probably more authoritative resources can be found, but above list seems correct to me. Oscar van Vlijmen 2001-12-13
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:33:45 +0100 From: Oscar van Vlijmen <o.van.vlijmen@tip.nl>
Listed below is a complete list of the current administrative regions of China.
Sorry, I should have stated the problem more clearly. The problem is deciding which administrative regions correspond to which tz Zone entries. This will require consulting Shanks. I'm actually a bit skeptical of Shanks in this area. Shanks is the best source I know here, but I'd much rather have a Chinese source of historical time zone data. I've heard that astrology is popular in China, so I'd expect this info to be written down _somewhere_; but I don't know where.
This email seems to be a reply to a previously send email, but I didn't receive the original mail from Anthony Fok through the tz-list.
It probably hasn't gotten past the moderator yet. I was also sent the email directly, which is why I saw it earlier.
Oscar van Vlijmen said:
Listed below is a complete list of the current administrative regions of China.
Readers might want to note that each of these has an official number, documented in ISO 3166.
The Chinese Central Government has divided China into different regions, which consists of : 23 Provinces 5 Autonomous Regions 4 Municipalities 1 Special Administrative Region
Agreed.
The provinces with their capitals are: 34 Anhui - Hefei 35 Fujian - Fuzhou 62 Gansu - Lanzhou 44 Guangdong - Guangzhou 52 Guizhou - Guiyang 46 Hainan - Haikou 13 Hebei - Shijiazhuang 23 Heilongjiang - Harbin 41 Henan - Zhengzhou 42 Hubei - Wuhan 43 Hunan - Changsha 32 Jiangsu - Nanjing 36 Jiangxi - Nanchang 22 Jilin - Changchun 21 Liaoning - Shenyang 63 Qinghai - Xining 61 Shaanxi - Xian 37 Shandong - Jinan 14 Shanxi - Taiyuan 51 Sichuan - Chengdu 71 Taiwan - Taipei (!) 53 Yunnan - Kunming 33 Zhejiang - Hangzhou
The autonomous regions with their capitals are: 45 Guangxi Zhuang - Nanning 15 Nei Monggol (Inner Mongolia) - Hohhot 64 Ningxia Hui - Yinchuan 54 Xizang (Tibet) - Lhasa 65 Xinjiang Uigur (or ... Uygur; chinese prefer Uigur) - Urumqi
The 4 municipalities are: 11 Beijing 50 Chongqing 31 Shanghai 12 Tianjin
The special administrative region is: 91 Hong Kong
[I can't see the logic behind the numbering. Is it geographical ?] 11 Beijing Municipality 12 Tianjin Municipality 13 Hebei 14 Shanxi 15 Nei Monggol (Inner Mongolia) 21 Liaoning 22 Jilin 23 Heilongjiang 31 Shanghai Municipality 32 Jiangsu 33 Zhejiang 34 Anhui 35 Fujian 36 Jiangxi 37 Shandong 41 Henan 42 Hubei 43 Hunan 44 Guangdong 45 Guangxi Zhuang 46 Hainan 50 Chongqing Municipality 51 Sichuan 52 Guizhou 53 Yunnan 54 Xizang (Tibet) 61 Shaanxi 62 Gansu 63 Qinghai 64 Ningxia Hui 65 Xinjiang Uigur 71 Taiwan 91 Hong Kong SAR -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: <clive@demon.net> | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: <clive@davros.org> | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | |
On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 03:49:48PM +0000, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
Oscar van Vlijmen said:
The Chinese Central Government has divided China into different regions, which consists of : 23 Provinces 5 Autonomous Regions 4 Municipalities 1 Special Administrative Region
As of Year 1999, there are _two_ Special Adminstrative Regions: Hong Kong SAR, China Macau SAR, China
The autonomous regions with their capitals are: 45 Guangxi Zhuang - Nanning 15 Nei Monggol (Inner Mongolia) - Hohhot 64 Ningxia Hui - Yinchuan 54 Xizang (Tibet) - Lhasa 65 Xinjiang Uigur (or ... Uygur; chinese prefer Uigur) - Urumqi
Not sure about this one. When I searched for Xinjiang, I usually see the spelling "Uygur" being used on official Chinese government websites. Of course, your mileage may vary. :-)
The special administrative region is: 91 Hong Kong
Not sure what the number is for Macau. :-) Cheers, Anthony -- Anthony Fok Tung-Ling ThizLinux Laboratory <anthony@thizlinux.com> http://www.thizlinux.com/ Debian Chinese Project <foka@debian.org> http://www.debian.org/intl/zh/ Come visit Our Lady of Victory Camp! http://www.olvc.ab.ca/
Anthony Fok said:
65 Xinjiang Uigur (or ... Uygur; chinese prefer Uigur) - Urumqi Not sure about this one. When I searched for Xinjiang, I usually see the spelling "Uygur" being used on official Chinese government websites. Of course, your mileage may vary. :-)
Not my wording - all I did was to provide the number 65. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: <clive@demon.net> | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: <clive@davros.org> | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | |
Hello Paul, On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:48:11PM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote:
Thanks for your careful analyis. Some comments:
the term "Eastern Turkestan" refers to the historic name of the region, as a country, when it was outside China's rule for brief periods in history.
OK, sorry, then I misunderstood the boundaries. As far as I know, though, the region was not controlled by China until after the Manchus conquered it in 1759, so it was independent (or anarchic :-) for more than just "brief periods".
To be honest, I didn't know the boundaries either until I came across sites like: http://www.unpo.org/member/eturk/eturk.html on which Eastern Turkestan and Tibet are both shown as individual countries separate from China, and Eastern Turkestan appears to cover the entire Xinjiang. And than I discovered that Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region is the entire Xinjiang, not just part of it. (I didn't know that. :-) The region has been ruled by China in some previous dynasties AFAIK. Might have been part of China during the Tang Dynasty and Yuan (Mongol) Dynasty. But yes, I was oversimplifying when I wrote "outside China's rule for brief periods". I should go read it up when I have time. (My excuse is that I left for Canada to study from Grade 9 until graduating from university, so my knowledge in Chinese history and geography is lacking. :-)
west Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region (Eastern Turkestan), China
Wow, that's quite a mouthful. How about just "southwest Xinjiang" instead? That's shorter.
Sure, that sounds good. :-)
I have also changed "Macao" to "Macau". Why? :-) 1. Macau is the official name (in both English and Portuguese). See www.macau.gov.mo, for example. 2. On recent trips to Macau, I can no longer find any signs that say "Macao". 3. ISO 3166 says MO = Macau in English; MO = Macao in French. 4. On Google, Macau: 810000 hits; Macao: 311000 hits.
Sounds good; thanks.
Thanks! :-)
+CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai Beijing, Shanghai, Guangdong, and most eastern locations in China +CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin northeast China - Heilongjiang +CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing central China - Gansu, Guangdong, Guizhou, Ningxia, Shaanxi, Sichuan, Yunnan, etc. +CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet (Xizang) & most of Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Regions, China +CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar west Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region (Eastern Turkestan), China
Hmm, that can't be right: you've got Guangdong in two different zones.
Oops! Yes, I meant "Guangxi" (i.e. the "Guang West" instead of Guangdong for "Guang East". Mea culpa))
How about something like this instead? I'll try to see if I can come up with a more complete list of provinces, but I don't want the comments field to be so large that 'tzselect' produces confusing output.
That's true. :-)
CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai east China - Beijing, Guangdong, Shanghai, etc. CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Heilongjiang CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing central China - Gansu, Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, etc.
If you prefer, you could put Guangxi back in there, if not too long. :-)
CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet & most of Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar southwest Xinjiang
Thank you very much for your help! :-) Best regards, Anthony -- Anthony Fok Tung-Ling ThizLinux Laboratory <anthony@thizlinux.com> http://www.thizlinux.com/ Debian Chinese Project <foka@debian.org> http://www.debian.org/intl/zh/ Come visit Our Lady of Victory Camp! http://www.olvc.ab.ca/
On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:48:11PM -0800, Paul Eggert wrote:
CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai east China - Beijing, Guangdong, Shanghai, etc. CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Heilongjiang CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing central China - Gansu, Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, etc. CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet & most of Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar southwest Xinjiang
BTW, I did some research on-line and found some info regarding these five historic timezones from some Taiwan websites. And yes, there are official Chinese names for these locales (before 1949): (Chinese names in GB2312 encoding in parentheses) Asia/Harbin Changbai Time (长白时区) = "Long-white Time", Long-white = Heilongjiang area Asia/Shanghai Zhongyuan Time (中原时区) = "Central plain Time" Asia/Chongqing Long-shu Time (陇蜀时区) = "Long-Shu Time"; I guess Long and Shu are two historic names of that area? :-) forgot where Long is, but Shu is in the area of the "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". :-) Asia/Urumqi Xin-zang Time (新藏时区) = "Xinjiang-Tibet Time" Asia/Kashgar Kunlun Time (昆仑时区) I'm subscribed to quite a few Chinese mailing lists. I will try to ask around to see if anyone knows more about these time zones. :-) Cheers, Anthony -- Anthony Fok Tung-Ling 霍东灵 ThizLinux Laboratory <anthony@thizlinux.com> http://www.thizlinux.com/ Debian Chinese Project <foka@debian.org> http://www.debian.org/intl/zh/ Come visit Our Lady of Victory Camp! http://www.olvc.ab.ca/
How about if we make the following change for now?
CN +3114+12128 Asia/Shanghai most locations CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Heilongjiang CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chungking China mountains CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet & most of Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar Eastern Turkestan
I would suggest: CN +3114+12128 Asia/Beijing most eastern locations CN +4545+12641 Asia/Harbin Heilongjiang (north-east) CN +2934+10635 Asia/Chongqing Chongqing - central China CN +4348+08735 Asia/Urumqi Tibet and most of Xinjiang CN +3929+07559 Asia/Kashgar Western Xinjiang (Kashi, Kaxgar) Why not using the correct Chongqing? At the same time you use the correct (pinyin) Beijing, Heilongjian and Xinjiang, and not some 19th century transliteration (Chungking)!! Kashi is the Chinese-Latin 'spelling', Kaxgar a local Latin spelling and Kashgar a bit old-fashioned (19th century). Turkestan is a mountain range in Tajikistan and also a place in Kazakhstan - says the Times atlas; has nowadays nothing to do with China. I have a German atlas from 1894, which indeed shows that 'Kaschgar' lies in 'Ost Turkestan', but it can be advised to use a designation one could find in a modern atlas. If I'm well informed, Urumqi has two front-vowels, according to the 'perceived' pronunciation, hence the current spelling Ürümqi, but I suspect this is a bit problematic in the 7-bits Posix world. No problemo. Ah! Where are the days one wrote Oeroemtsji or Wulumuqi? Regards, Oscar van Vlijmen 2001-09-24
participants (6)
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Anthony Fok -
Brian Garrett -
Clive D.W. Feather -
Oscar van Vlijmen -
Paul Eggert -
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