Hello, about Italian time, I see: # From Paul Eggert (2006-03-22): # For Italian DST we have three sources: Shanks & Pottenger, Whitman, and # F. Pollastri # Day-light Saving Time in Italy (2006-02-03) # http://toi.iriti.cnr.it/uk/ienitlt.html # ('FP' below), taken from an Italian National Electrotechnical Institute # publication. When the three sources disagree, guess who's right, as follows: I don't know about the other sources, but: - the url given to cnr.it is dead. - The authoritative source for time in Italy is the national metrological institute, which has a summary page of historical DST data at http://www.inrim.it/res/tf/ora_legale_i.shtml - Some of the data in TZ does not agree with this page. I think that there must be VERY strong evidence that the INRIM is wrong before preferring other sources? Cheers
On 2016-10-20 15:27, Pierpaolo Bernardi wrote:
about Italian time, I see: # From Paul Eggert (2006-03-22): # For Italian DST we have three sources: Shanks & Pottenger, Whitman, and # F. Pollastri # Day-light Saving Time in Italy (2006-02-03) # http://toi.iriti.cnr.it/uk/ienitlt.html # ('FP' below), taken from an Italian National Electrotechnical Institute # publication. When the three sources disagree, guess who's right, as follows: I don't know about the other sources, but: - the url given to cnr.it is dead. - The authoritative source for time in Italy is the national metrological institute, which has a summary page of historical DST data at http://www.inrim.it/res/tf/ora_legale_i.shtml - Some of the data in TZ does not agree with this page. I think that there must be VERY strong evidence that the INRIM is wrong before preferring other sources?
Hi Pierpaolo, That page does not cite any of its sources: - some of them could be those used in the tzdb or the tzdb itself; - tzdb prefers official government sources as references, better if viewable online; - perhaps you could contact INRIM to find out if they can provide references to information of which the list was not previously aware? Also perhaps you (or they) could say what the phrases: "dalle ore X del" and "alle ore X estive del" mean in this context? Google Translate says they mean something like: "from hour X" and "from summer time hour X", implying local (standard or daylight) time is used in both cases. I have attached comparisons of the data from the table on the web page, converted by scripts to tzdb rules, flagged with i in the Type column relabelled Src, and conversions of those date/times showing 24:00 to the next date 00:00, flagged with =, both with the day of the week appended to the day in the month, for easier checking. Those were merged with tzdb Italy rules, flagged with z. Comparison was done visually and entries where there are discrepancies have a ? appended to the end of the tzdb line; sometimes others where I thought data may be questionable. Some assumptions were made in the comparison: - web page times are local standard time for daylight start entries and local daylight time for daylight end entries; - daylight start entries with the same time value with or without s (standard time suffix) are the same; - daylight end entries with local time an hour later than an entry in standard time are the same: entries with the same time value with and without s (standard time suffix) differ; - there may be more/fewer discrepancies if these assumptions are wrong. Some tabs between leading columns were converted to spaces to shrink line length for attachment. If you contact INRIM, please feel free to forward the comparison. Scripts used and intermediate files are available by email if anyone cares. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@systematicsw.ab.ca> wrote:
On 2016-10-20 15:27, Pierpaolo Bernardi wrote:
about Italian time, I see: # From Paul Eggert (2006-03-22): # For Italian DST we have three sources: Shanks & Pottenger, Whitman, and # F. Pollastri # Day-light Saving Time in Italy (2006-02-03) # http://toi.iriti.cnr.it/uk/ienitlt.html # ('FP' below), taken from an Italian National Electrotechnical Institute # publication. When the three sources disagree, guess who's right, as follows: I don't know about the other sources, but: - the url given to cnr.it is dead. - The authoritative source for time in Italy is the national metrological institute, which has a summary page of historical DST data at http://www.inrim.it/res/tf/ora_legale_i.shtml - Some of the data in TZ does not agree with this page. I think that there must be VERY strong evidence that the INRIM is wrong before preferring other sources?
Hi Pierpaolo,
That page does not cite any of its sources:
They are the National Metrological Institute, they are the source of time, both for scientific and legal purposes in Italy.
- some of them could be those used in the tzdb or the tzdb itself;
I doubt that they need any external reference for these matters. They are the ones who are actually implementing the switches since 1934.
- tzdb prefers official government sources as references, better if viewable online;
This is exactly what they are. You can't get any more official government source than them.
- perhaps you could contact INRIM to find out if they can provide references to information of which the list was not previously aware?
Doesn't make much sense to ask them for their source, as they are the ones which tell Italy what time it is. There's nothing more authoritative they could appeal to for support (nowadays they participate in the realization of TAI, and realize UTC(IT) and disseminate it through Italy. See http://rime.inrim.it/labtf/ ). The Institute exists and operates in this role since 1934 as Istituto Elettrotecnico Nazionale Galileo Ferraris first, then renamed Istituto Nazionale di Ricerca Metrologica in 2006. (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istituto_elettrotecnico_nazionale_Galileo_Ferr...) Anyway, if you can suggest a precise question to ask, I'll ask (and I'm sure they can also reply in English to an enquiry in English. The email given for external relations is press@inrim.it). I anticipate that their reply will be: this is what we have in our records :^)
Also perhaps you (or they) could say what the phrases: "dalle ore X del" and "alle ore X estive del" mean in this context?
"Dalle ore X del" = from hh:mm of [day] (can be inferred from context that they mean local standard time) "alle ore X estive" = to hh:mm summer time (local DST).
I have attached comparisons of the data from the table on the web page,
Thank you. I'll study your comparison later. I didn't do a sistematic comparison.
Some assumptions were made in the comparison: - web page times are local standard time for daylight start entries and local daylight time for daylight end entries;
this is correct. Cheers
On 10/21/2016 03:33 PM, Pierpaolo Bernardi wrote:
Anyway, if you can suggest a precise question to ask, I'll ask (and I'm sure they can also reply in English to an enquiry in English.
Thanks for the suggestion. INRIM is clearly more reliable than the sources we were using, so I adjusted our tables to match INRIM's via the attached patch, which is installed in the development repository now. If you have the time, could you ask INRIM two followup questions? My guess is that they'll prefer Italian-language questions and answers (and I am not lucky enough to speak Italian). First, do their tables reflect Italian legal time, or the time that was observed on the ground in Rome? The difference might matter during the period of German occupation of Rome, roughly from 1943-09-10 to 1944-06-04. Second, our commentary says "Sicily and Sardinia each had their own time zones from 1866 to 1893, called Palermo Time (+00:53:28) and Cagliari Time (+00:36:32)." Does INRIM have any information about legal time in Italy before 1916? I would prefer INRIM to Shanks as our source for this sort of commentary. Thanks.
On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:43 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
If you have the time, could you ask INRIM two followup questions?
Sure. I'll ask and report back. I'm not optimist about the pre-1900 questions, but we'll see what they answer. I think the best places to ask about these would be the Palermo and Cagliari astronomical observatories, I'll try to search for someone knowledgeable there. Cheers
On 2016-10-21 23:43, Paul Eggert wrote about the INRIM tables on legal time in Italy:
First, do their tables reflect Italian legal time, or the time that was observed on the ground in Rome? The difference might matter during the period of German occupation of Rome, roughly from 1943-09-10 to 1944-06-04.
INRIM can only disseminate time as determined by law or decree or order issued before the fact. What the Romans do is always a different matter, and is difficult to determine 70 years later. Besides, in recent cases where legal time has been observed to differ from widespread usage (eg Turkey), the tz database describes legal time. For 1967..1979, all steps in the Italian time scale were announced in the "Gazzetta Ufficiale", as required by the law: "legge 1144 del 1966-12-24" in [http://www.normattiva.it/uri-res/N2Ls?urn:nir:stato:legge:1966-12-24;1144] The list in [http://www.ac-ilsestante.it/MERIDIANE/ora_legale/ORA_LEGALE_ESTIVA_IN_ITALIA...]. gives all these announcements. For the time of occupation, this source also cites a Genovese newspaper -- which is still prescriptive. It also quotes a law from 1866 about zone times in Sardegna and Sicilia. Anyway, these sources seem to agree with the tables of INRIM. The latest discrepancy from the tz database time scale Europe/Rome is in 1974, well after the somewhat-arbitrary cutoff at 1970. Michael Deckers.
On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Michael H Deckers via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
INRIM can only disseminate time as determined by law or decree or order issued before the fact. What the Romans do is always a different matter, and is difficult to determine 70 years later. Besides, in recent cases where legal time has been observed to differ from widespread usage (eg Turkey), the tz database describes legal time.
For 1967..1979, all steps in the Italian time scale were announced in the "Gazzetta Ufficiale", as required by the law:
Since much before 1967. But the actual laws are extremely confused. I checked one, and it does not agree with INRIM. I trust more the INRIM. This one is about the end of DST for 1944: http://www.normattiva.it/atto/caricaDettaglioAtto?atto.dataPubblicazioneGazz...
Anyway, these sources seem to agree with the tables of INRIM.
The single one I checked does not agree :( (I'll add this to my not yet written email to INRIM) Cheers
On 2016-10-23 15:38, Pierpaolo Bernardi wrote:
On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Michael H Deckers via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
INRIM can only disseminate time as determined by law or decree or order issued before the fact. What the Romans do is always a different matter, and is difficult to determine 70 years later. Besides, in recent cases where legal time has been observed to differ from widespread usage (eg Turkey), the tz database describes legal time. For 1967..1979, all steps in the Italian time scale were announced in the "Gazzetta Ufficiale", as required by the law: Since much before 1967. But the actual laws are extremely confused. I checked one, and it does not agree with INRIM. I trust more the INRIM. This one is about the end of DST for 1944: http://www.normattiva.it/atto/caricaDettaglioAtto?atto.dataPubblicazioneGazz... Anyway, these sources seem to agree with the tables of INRIM. The single one I checked does not agree :( (I'll add this to my not yet written email to INRIM)
Free rendition from Google Translate output [additions thus] below. TL;DR: I thought those INRIM non-Sunday dates were suspicious! Rule Italy 1944 only - Apr 2 [Sun] 02:00 1:00 S Rule Italy 1944 only - Sep 17 [Sun] 03:00 0 - Not a very stable search tool - provided the legislation after some prodding! I saved a copy of the original legislation if others have issues. It would be great if you could provide more links to similar material here for reference, and copy INRIM for their feedback. Interesting legally exact designation below of the repeated hour as hour 2-bis, which I have not seen mentioned similarly elsewhere in any legislation. Viceregal LEGISLATIVE DECREE 14 September 1944, no. 219 Restoration of Standard Time. (044U0219) (OJ 62 of 30.9.1944) UMBERTO OF SAVOY PRINCE OF PIEDMONT VICEROY OF THE REALM In virtue of the authority delegated to Us; Given the R. decree 10 August 1893, no. 490, concerning the adoption by Italy, of the 2nd time zone (Central European Time); Given the R. law decreed on 29 March 1944, no. 92, by which standard time is advanced to sixty minutes later starting at hour two on 2 April 1944; Given the Viceregal law decreed on 25 June 1944, no. 151; Given the decision of the Council of Ministers; On the proposal of the President of the Council of Ministers, Prime Ministerial Secretary of State; We sanction and proclaim as follows: Art. 1. Starting at hour three on the date 17 September 1944 standard time will be resumed. The actual legal time will therefore, at that moment be set back to 60 minutes earlier to put this in effect. Art. 2. The resulting time, obtained by the postponement of art. 1, will be regarded, for all legal purposes, as hour 2-bis. We order all concerned to comply with this decree and to observe it as a State law. Dated in Rome, on 14 September 1944 (signed) UMBERTO OF SAVOY (signed) [Ivanoe] BONOMI [Prime Minister] Keeper of the Seal: [Umberto?] Tupini Registered at the Court of Auditors, on 22 September 1944 Civil Service Bureau Registry no. 1, page no. 109. - EMANUEL -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Michael H Deckers via tz wrote:
Anyway, these sources seem to agree with the tables of INRIM. The latest discrepancy from the tz database time scale Europe/Rome is in 1974, well after the somewhat-arbitrary cutoff at 1970.
Thanks for reporting that. I attempted to fix all the discrepancies I could see, by installing the attached patch into the development repository.
Thanks for the patch proposed on 2016-10-24 05:53 to the Rules for Italy. I am still puzzled by some disagreements in the sources for 1944, and I will look further into it. A tiny bit could be mended in Europe/Rome: The source [http://www.ac-ilsestante.it/MERIDIANE/ora_legale /ORA_LEGALE_ESTIVA_IN_ITALIA.htm] quotes a law of 1893-08-10: Art. 1 Il servizio delle strade ferrate in tutto il Regno d'Italia verrà regolato secondo il tempo solare medio del meridiano situato a 15 gradi all’Est di Greenwich, che si denominerà tempo dell’Europa Centrale. [The railway service in the whole kingdom of Italy will be regulated according to mean solar time of the meridian placed 15 degrees east of Greenwich, which will be called central European time.] Art. 2 [Time of day to be counted from midnight to midnight for railway purposes,] Art. 3 Le disposizioni precedenti entreranno in vigore nell'istante in cui, secondo il tempo specificato all’art. 1°, incomincerà il 1° Novembre 1893, e da quell’istante cesserà di avere vigore qualunque altra disposizione contraria. [The preceding dispositions will enter into force at the instant at which, according to the time specified in the 1st article, the 1st of November 1893 will begin, and from this instant any other contrary dispositions will end to be in force.] This implies that the step in Europe/Rome near 1893-11-01 was planned as a jump from 23:49:56 h to 00 h, not as a jump from 00 h to 00:10:04 h. Thus: - 0:49:56 - RMT 1893 Nov 1 0:00s # Rome Mean + 0:49:56 - RMT 1893 Oct 31 23:49:56s # Rome Mean Michael Deckers.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Michael Deckers via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
I am still puzzled by some disagreements in the sources for 1944, and I will look further into it.
This page http://www.renzobaldini.it/le-ore-legali-in-italia/ has still diferent data for 1944. It divides Italy in two, as there were effectively two governments at the time, north of gotic line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Line) German controlled territory, official government RSI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic), and south of gothic line, controlled by allied armies. Data for neither of the two zones agrees with INRIM, as far as I can tell from a cursory examination. The page belongs to an astrologer, but on the positive side, he quotes actual law numbers which can be researched. More homework to do :) Cheers
Hi, The German-occupied part of Italy probably followed that of Germany, the liberated part probably followed that of the UK. This was also the case in the Netherlands during the last phase of WW2. Rob van Gent Department of Mathematics Utrecht University -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Pierpaolo Bernardi Sent: maandag 24 oktober 2016 17:59 To: Michael Deckers Cc: tz@iana.org Subject: Re: [tz] Historical discrepancies for Italy. On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Michael Deckers via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
I am still puzzled by some disagreements in the sources for 1944, and I will look further into it.
This page http://www.renzobaldini.it/le-ore-legali-in-italia/ has still diferent data for 1944. It divides Italy in two, as there were effectively two governments at the time, north of gotic line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Line) German controlled territory, official government RSI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic), and south of gothic line, controlled by allied armies. Data for neither of the two zones agrees with INRIM, as far as I can tell from a cursory examination. The page belongs to an astrologer, but on the positive side, he quotes actual law numbers which can be researched. More homework to do :) Cheers
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Gent, R.H. van (Rob) <R.H.vanGent@uu.nl> wrote:
Hi,
The German-occupied part of Italy probably followed that of Germany, the liberated part probably followed that of the UK.
Actually, the German controlled part officially was RSI, a puppet state governed by Mussolini, and that page quotes an RSI law as RSI, Presidenza, fasc. 57 / Decreto-legge del Duce n. 604 del 19.09.1944-XXII (i.e. decrees from Mussolini). For the southern part the references are Regio decreto-legge n. 92 del 29.03.1944 / Decreto-legge luogotenenziale n. 219 del 14.09.1944 (i.e. royal decrees). Sigh. Cheers
That the German-occupied northern part of Italy observed DST on different dates than the rest of Italy in 1944 helps explain the different dates given by Shanks and www.inrim.it. Shanks has an ending date for DST in 1944 that matches one part of Italy and www.inrim.it has an ending date that matches the other part of Italy. Evidently the dates given by both Shanks and www.inrim.it are correct but apply to different regions of Italy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pierpaolo Bernardi" <olopierpa@gmail.com> To: "Gent, R.H. van (Rob)" <R.H.vanGent@uu.nl> Cc: <tz@iana.org> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [tz] Historical discrepancies for Italy.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Gent, R.H. van (Rob) <R.H.vanGent@uu.nl> wrote:
Hi,
The German-occupied part of Italy probably followed that of Germany, the liberated part probably followed that of the UK.
Actually, the German controlled part officially was RSI, a puppet state governed by Mussolini, and that page quotes an RSI law as RSI, Presidenza, fasc. 57 / Decreto-legge del Duce n. 604 del 19.09.1944-XXII (i.e. decrees from Mussolini).
For the southern part the references are Regio decreto-legge n. 92 del 29.03.1944 / Decreto-legge luogotenenziale n. 219 del 14.09.1944 (i.e. royal decrees).
Sigh.
Cheers
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On 2016-10-24 15:59, Pierpaolo Bernardi wrote:
This page http://www.renzobaldini.it/le-ore-legali-in-italia/ has still diferent data for 1944.
It divides Italy in two, as there were effectively two governments at the time, north of gotic line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Line) German controlled territory, official government RSI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic), and south of gothic line, controlled by allied armies.
Data for neither of the two zones agrees with INRIM, as far as I can tell from a cursory examination. Yes, this has puzzled me. It turns out that the INRiM page is wrong for both changes in 1944: the switch they give for summer time is the one obeying C-Eur Rules and was applied in RSI but not south of the Gothic line; the switch to winter time on Sep 17 went from 03 to 02 h, not from 02 to 01 h as given by INRiM: -Rule Italy 1944 only - Apr 3 2:00 1:00 S +Rule Italy 1944 only - Apr 2 2:00 1:00 S +Rule Salò 1944 only - Apr 3 2:00 1:00 S -Rule Italy 1944 only - Sep 17 2:00 0 - +Rule Italy 1944 only - Sep 17 3:00 0 - +Rule Salò 1944 only - Oct 2 3:00 0 - The source [http://www.ac-ilsestante.it/MERIDIANE/ora_legale/ ORA_LEGALE_ESTIVA_IN_ITALIA.htm] is correct.
The correct switches applying in Rome (in the "regno") in 1944 can be looked up in [augusto.agid.gov.it/gazzette/index/download/id/1944062_P1S.pdf] on page 374, DECRETO LEGISLATIVO LUOGOTENENZIALE 14 settembre 1944, n. 219: .... Visto il R. decreto-legge 29 marzo 1944, n. 92, col quale l'ora normale è stata anticipata di sessanta mi- nuti primi a partire dalle ore due del 2 aprile 1944;. [Considering the royal law-decree 1944 March 29, n. 92, by which standard time has been advanced by sixty minutes from 1944 April 2, two hours] .... A partire dalle ore tre del giorno 17 settembre 1944 é ripristinata l'ora normale. [From three hours on the day 1944 September 17 standard time is resumed.] The text goes on to explain that the jump causes the hours from 02 h until 03 h to be repeated, so that we can be certain that a jump from 03h to 02 h is implied. One could even argue that the text implies that 02:00 is assumed twice but 03:00 is not (so that the time scale is a right continuous function of UT). The decree was issued in Rome on 1944-09-14 (very short notice!) and signed UMBERTO DI SAVOIA. The corresponding switch in the RSI can be looked up in [http://augusto.agid.gov.it/gazzette/index/download/id/1944229_P1_GI.pdf] on page 1512. It uses the C-Eur rules and is signed MUSSOLINI. Nice history lesson! Michael Deckers.
On 10/24/2016 12:32 PM, Michael H Deckers via tz wrote:
It turns out that the INRiM page is wrong for both changes in 1944: the switch they give for summer time is the one obeying C-Eur Rules and was applied in RSI but not south of the Gothic line; the switch to winter time on Sep 17 went from 03 to 02 h, not from 02 to 01 h as given by INRiM
Yes, thanks, this sounds right, so I installed the attached proposed patch to depart from INRIM's table for the two 1944 transitions in Rome, rewriting comment to explain this somewhat-confusing situation better.
participants (7)
-
Brian Inglis -
David Cochrane -
Gent, R.H. van (Rob) -
Michael Deckers -
Michael H Deckers
-
Paul Eggert -
Pierpaolo Bernardi