I do appreciate that my concerns on this issue have been discussed seriously. I also recognize the issue is not easy, since various product distributions may have of their own standards which must be applied to the db no matter what is decided here and by the maintainers. (I used to develop commercial word-processing products for Israel & Syria, so I am familiar with the issues). So I'll just summarize my concerns one last time, then leave it to the experts. The tz database is used by many systems, and a lot of software, as we all know. Its usage is worldwide, and it is used in various countries and by many users, many of which may not share the same politics as the people on this list or the maintainers. But as much as possible, this list should not be one of arguing over politics. I totally appreciate the effort to come to a way of reducing the political debate here, or to come to a compromize that would reduce the politics from the database and list. Removing country codes is certainly one way, and another is to consistantly use somone else's political standards as a guide (ie: the UN & ISO). Removing country codes certainly solves the problem elegantly for the database, no more countries, no arguments of what country a city is in. But it doesnt resolve the problem at all for those that use the database. Unless someone knows his tz identifier offhand, a user specifying timezones will have to select it from some sort of list. Either that, or depend on the software he is using making the selection for him based on other criteria. Herein lies my concern. The primary way for a person to find his zone is by entering his country and city - or perhaps city alone (if he is lucky enough to guess the correct city from the long list of tz identifiers). If not the user, then someone in the implementation chain for the product will be required to do this depending on other criteria. So, somewhere in the chain between the database and the user, someone will still have to make the decision of how to map the timezones to user-identifyable locations. If an international standard is not used in the tz database for this, then each implementer will have to decide for himself how to map each city to country - preventing the tz database from being implemented consistantly. A user might have to choose one country to use one piece of software, and another country for another piece of software - and will not know whether his choices are consistant or correct. So, this is my argument for using UN & ISO locations consistantly within the db. Removing international standard locations from tz will cause the implementations of the database to be fractured. In summary: - keeping the process as is causes endless polical debate on the mailing list - where it should not be. - removing all countries would make the tz database far less political, but could cause fracturing of tz implementations, and difficulty implementing country-based solutions. - using UN & ISO standards would promote standarization of the tz database and its usage, reduce debate, but unfortunately promote UN & ISO standards to those that disagree with them or their use. I, of course prefer the third choice.