Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one. So, how would you simply refer to IDNs. a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment. I’m looking for something really short. Your thoughts? Don
Don- This is a good question and a good conversation starter. If we're doing it right, the correct term is 'Domain Names', ultimately, and I am sure we all yearn for that utopian day. :) All kidding aside, I have had success at 'Grandma' audiences by referring to IDNs as a variety of terms based upon suitability to the audience. If, for example I am in Macau speaking to an audience of largely Chinese participants, and describing [chinese].[chinese] domains, I would say 'Domains in your language'. Where I am talking to a wider demographic, I might also refer to them as 'world language' domains and then offer a brief narrative of what IDNs are. It seems that without the context of visual support and background on IDNs in some brief explanation, it is not as clear to the audience what is being discussed. Also, too much detail causes them to nerdfilter the technical mumbo-jumbo and gobbledy-guck, and then the balance of the discussion receives a reaction like I am explaining real estate on Mars. Some of the better visual Queues that have been a real benefit are things like Brett London's early stage slides from many of our foundational stage meetings about UA, in some form. Not sure if 'domains in world languages' answer your quest for a simplified 'grandma' term, but I hope it helps. And perhaps others on the list might build on the concept... -Jothan Jothan Frakes +1.206-355-0230 tel +1.206-201-6881 fax On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment.
I’m looking for something really short.
Your thoughts?
Don
Anything that says "language" makes me cringe. Lots of domain names aren't a word in any language. What language is "com"? "Your writing" is perhaps better. A -- Andrew Sullivan Please excuse my clumbsy thums.
On Jul 22, 2016, at 21:41, Jothan Frakes <jothan@jothan.com> wrote:
Don-
This is a good question and a good conversation starter.
If we're doing it right, the correct term is 'Domain Names', ultimately, and I am sure we all yearn for that utopian day.
:)
All kidding aside, I have had success at 'Grandma' audiences by referring to IDNs as a variety of terms based upon suitability to the audience.
If, for example I am in Macau speaking to an audience of largely Chinese participants, and describing [chinese].[chinese] domains, I would say 'Domains in your language'.
Where I am talking to a wider demographic, I might also refer to them as 'world language' domains and then offer a brief narrative of what IDNs are.
It seems that without the context of visual support and background on IDNs in some brief explanation, it is not as clear to the audience what is being discussed. Also, too much detail causes them to nerdfilter the technical mumbo-jumbo and gobbledy-guck, and then the balance of the discussion receives a reaction like I am explaining real estate on Mars.
Some of the better visual Queues that have been a real benefit are things like Brett London's early stage slides from many of our foundational stage meetings about UA, in some form.
Not sure if 'domains in world languages' answer your quest for a simplified 'grandma' term, but I hope it helps.
And perhaps others on the list might build on the concept...
-Jothan
Jothan Frakes +1.206-355-0230 tel +1.206-201-6881 fax
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> wrote: I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment.
I’m looking for something really short.
Your thoughts?
Don
On 7/22/2016 3:41 PM, Jothan Frakes wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
Having scanned the various responses and having thought a bit about what's likely to be easy for someone's grandmother, I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than international domain names. There are two types of goals for a term. One is that it is automatically understandable, without explanation. The other is that a simple explanation is sufficient to make it comfortable for future use. An average non-technical (and even most technical) person is likely to assume the term means that it's registered in some other country or refers to a place that is in another country, or the like. So we lose on the 'automatic' goal. I can't think of anything likely to win, because the very concept of different scripts is to obscure for most folk. But I think that a pretty simple explanation will suffice for later uses of the term. mumble. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Thanks Dave. What if your grandmother is living with you in Bangkok. Is a domain name in Thai really then an international domain name? D
On 24/07/2016, at 5:38 AM, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> wrote:
On 7/22/2016 3:41 PM, Jothan Frakes wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
Having scanned the various responses and having thought a bit about what's likely to be easy for someone's grandmother, I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than international domain names.
There are two types of goals for a term. One is that it is automatically understandable, without explanation. The other is that a simple explanation is sufficient to make it comfortable for future use.
An average non-technical (and even most technical) person is likely to assume the term means that it's registered in some other country or refers to a place that is in another country, or the like. So we lose on the 'automatic' goal. I can't think of anything likely to win, because the very concept of different scripts is to obscure for most folk.
But I think that a pretty simple explanation will suffice for later uses of the term.
mumble.
d/
--
Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
It’s easy to agree with the below mentioned. There is a fundamental error regarding IDNs. They are not internationalized domain names, but localized, in my opinion… BR, Arto TLD Registry Ltd: .在线 & .中文网 -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Päivämäärä: sunnuntai 24. heinäkuuta 2016 klo 7.54 Vastaanottaja: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> Kopio: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <UA-discuss@icann.org> Aihe: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Thanks Dave. What if your grandmother is living with you in Bangkok. Is a domain name in Thai really then an international domain name? D
On 24/07/2016, at 5:38 AM, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> wrote:
On 7/22/2016 3:41 PM, Jothan Frakes wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
Having scanned the various responses and having thought a bit about what's likely to be easy for someone's grandmother, I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than international domain names.
There are two types of goals for a term. One is that it is automatically understandable, without explanation. The other is that a simple explanation is sufficient to make it comfortable for future use.
An average non-technical (and even most technical) person is likely to assume the term means that it's registered in some other country or refers to a place that is in another country, or the like. So we lose on the 'automatic' goal. I can't think of anything likely to win, because the very concept of different scripts is to obscure for most folk.
But I think that a pretty simple explanation will suffice for later uses of the term.
mumble.
d/
--
Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Localized domain names is a much more understandable term global. If you are looking for something more plain spoken, whenever I've spoken on this topic I found that "domain name in your language" works well. Best regards, Carolyn ________________________________ From: Arto Isokoski<mailto:arto.isokoski@internetregistry.info> Sent: 7/24/2016 2:02 AM To: Don Hollander<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>; Dave Crocker<mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net> Cc: UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? It’s easy to agree with the below mentioned. There is a fundamental error regarding IDNs. They are not internationalized domain names, but localized, in my opinion… BR, Arto TLD Registry Ltd: .在线 & .中文网 -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Päivämäärä: sunnuntai 24. heinäkuuta 2016 klo 7.54 Vastaanottaja: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> Kopio: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <UA-discuss@icann.org> Aihe: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Thanks Dave. What if your grandmother is living with you in Bangkok. Is a domain name in Thai really then an international domain name? D
On 24/07/2016, at 5:38 AM, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> wrote:
On 7/22/2016 3:41 PM, Jothan Frakes wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
Having scanned the various responses and having thought a bit about what's likely to be easy for someone's grandmother, I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than international domain names.
There are two types of goals for a term. One is that it is automatically understandable, without explanation. The other is that a simple explanation is sufficient to make it comfortable for future use.
An average non-technical (and even most technical) person is likely to assume the term means that it's registered in some other country or refers to a place that is in another country, or the like. So we lose on the 'automatic' goal. I can't think of anything likely to win, because the very concept of different scripts is to obscure for most folk.
But I think that a pretty simple explanation will suffice for later uses of the term.
mumble.
d/
--
Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Dear all, It seems to me that this is the point where PR meets experts and vice versa. J PR manager's way of thinking> Target audience, "grandmothers" - do they use any unique term for this? No? Ok, do we have any known attempt of explanation? On any IGF, on IDN sessions, we were using a lot of terms and sentences to explain what it is, because we usually had "grandmothers" in the audience. And always with examples. So, to break this problem into pieces further (me, acting like a "grandmother"): - From my point of view, there are domestic and foreign domain names. So, all domain names are international, and only domain names on my script are domestic. For me, when You say localized, the meaning can be wrong... - Domain names - they're just names? So, they're words then. - If those short names like .com, .org, .net, .biz and similar, doesn't mean anything on English, I wonder why they didn't use .aaa, .bbb, .ccc or any other easy three letters combo? So, eventually they mean something on English, therefor they are part of English language. They are not part of my domestic language for sure, because they look like .aaa to me, just more complex. - For me as a "grandmother", I don't know what is ASCII. ASCII is based on English alphabet, so for me simple acceptable explanation will be “ASCII is English alphabet”. With any other explanation, I can be confused. - To make me understand, examples are needed. Because, usually I don’t know what is TLD, DNS, registry, registrar and many other words. So, Don, from my point of view – my vote is C, for this target audience. My two cents. Dusan From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Carolyn Nguyen (CELA) via UA-discuss Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 2:12 PM To: Arto Isokoski <arto.isokoski@internetregistry.info>; Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org>; Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net> Cc: UA-discuss@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Localized domain names is a much more understandable term global. If you are looking for something more plain spoken, whenever I've spoken on this topic I found that "domain name in your language" works well. Best regards, Carolyn _____ From: Arto Isokoski <mailto:arto.isokoski@internetregistry.info> Sent: 7/24/2016 2:02 AM To: Don Hollander <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org> ; Dave Crocker <mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net> Cc: UA-discuss@icann.org <mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? It’s easy to agree with the below mentioned. There is a fundamental error regarding IDNs. They are not internationalized domain names, but localized, in my opinion… BR, Arto TLD Registry Ltd: .在线 & .中文网 -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org <mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org> > Päivämäärä: sunnuntai 24. heinäkuuta 2016 klo 7.54 Vastaanottaja: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net <mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net> > Kopio: "UA-discuss@icann.org <mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org> " <UA-discuss@icann.org <mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org> > Aihe: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Thanks Dave. What if your grandmother is living with you in Bangkok. Is a domain name in Thai really then an international domain name? D
On 24/07/2016, at 5:38 AM, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net <mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net> > wrote:
On 7/22/2016 3:41 PM, Jothan Frakes wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org%0b> <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
Having scanned the various responses and having thought a bit about what's likely to be easy for someone's grandmother, I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than international domain names.
There are two types of goals for a term. One is that it is automatically understandable, without explanation. The other is that a simple explanation is sufficient to make it comfortable for future use.
An average non-technical (and even most technical) person is likely to assume the term means that it's registered in some other country or refers to a place that is in another country, or the like. So we lose on the 'automatic' goal. I can't think of anything likely to win, because the very concept of different scripts is to obscure for most folk.
But I think that a pretty simple explanation will suffice for later uses of the term.
mumble.
d/
--
Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
I agree with Dusan’s and others’ points concerning the term “localized” – the terms are really language- or cultural-specific rather than translated or converted across countries / regions. For example, .tv might be universal but .biz not make sense in some places. And there’s no expectation of 1:1 alignment in each market so they are either localized nor globalized in the traditional sense of those terms (at least within my org). The best academic / industry terms I know would be culturally relevant or language-specific. One of the common discussions that I have around implementation is helping folks understand how much this matters in European markets. I think we lose that impact when we say other alphabets. Given that “domain name” is not understandable to the typical non-technical audience, I don’t think anything that builds upon that term can suffice. However, it may be the audience is moderately technical rather than pure consumer so in that context it works well. For impact, one phrasing would be “website names allowing more than the current 13 letters from the English alphabet”. -Stuart * Having had an corporate VP who was a grandmother and responsible for releasing some of the most modern software at the time, I avoid that target population as representing non-technical. PS: I have fragmented portions of this discussion in various threads so apologies if anyone was excluded in my reply. From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Dusan Stojicevic Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 6:51 AM To: 'ua-discuss' <UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Dear all, It seems to me that this is the point where PR meets experts and vice versa. ☺ PR manager's way of thinking> Target audience, "grandmothers" - do they use any unique term for this? No? Ok, do we have any known attempt of explanation? On any IGF, on IDN sessions, we were using a lot of terms and sentences to explain what it is, because we usually had "grandmothers" in the audience. And always with examples. So, to break this problem into pieces further (me, acting like a "grandmother"): - From my point of view, there are domestic and foreign domain names. So, all domain names are international, and only domain names on my script are domestic. For me, when You say localized, the meaning can be wrong... - Domain names - they're just names? So, they're words then. - If those short names like .com, .org, .net, .biz and similar, doesn't mean anything on English, I wonder why they didn't use .aaa, .bbb, .ccc or any other easy three letters combo? So, eventually they mean something on English, therefor they are part of English language. They are not part of my domestic language for sure, because they look like .aaa to me, just more complex. - For me as a "grandmother", I don't know what is ASCII. ASCII is based on English alphabet, so for me simple acceptable explanation will be “ASCII is English alphabet”. With any other explanation, I can be confused. - To make me understand, examples are needed. Because, usually I don’t know what is TLD, DNS, registry, registrar and many other words. So, Don, from my point of view – my vote is C, for this target audience. My two cents. Dusan From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Carolyn Nguyen (CELA) via UA-discuss Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 2:12 PM To: Arto Isokoski <arto.isokoski@internetregistry.info<mailto:arto.isokoski@internetregistry.info>>; Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>>; Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net<mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net>> Cc: UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Localized domain names is a much more understandable term global. If you are looking for something more plain spoken, whenever I've spoken on this topic I found that "domain name in your language" works well. Best regards, Carolyn ________________________________ From: Arto Isokoski<mailto:arto.isokoski@internetregistry.info> Sent: 7/24/2016 2:02 AM To: Don Hollander<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>; Dave Crocker<mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net> Cc: UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? It’s easy to agree with the below mentioned. There is a fundamental error regarding IDNs. They are not internationalized domain names, but localized, in my opinion… BR, Arto TLD Registry Ltd: .在线 & .中文网 -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- Lähettäjä: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> Päivämäärä: sunnuntai 24. heinäkuuta 2016 klo 7.54 Vastaanottaja: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net<mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net>> Kopio: "UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>" <UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>> Aihe: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? Thanks Dave. What if your grandmother is living with you in Bangkok. Is a domain name in Thai really then an international domain name? D
On 24/07/2016, at 5:38 AM, Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net<mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net>> wrote:
On 7/22/2016 3:41 PM, Jothan Frakes wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org%0b>>> <mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
Having scanned the various responses and having thought a bit about what's likely to be easy for someone's grandmother, I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than international domain names.
There are two types of goals for a term. One is that it is automatically understandable, without explanation. The other is that a simple explanation is sufficient to make it comfortable for future use.
An average non-technical (and even most technical) person is likely to assume the term means that it's registered in some other country or refers to a place that is in another country, or the like. So we lose on the 'automatic' goal. I can't think of anything likely to win, because the very concept of different scripts is to obscure for most folk.
But I think that a pretty simple explanation will suffice for later uses of the term.
mumble.
d/
--
Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Dear all .. Despite my interest in the topic and being on the mailing list for quite some time, this is my first email to the list (that's why I'm including my signature at the end of this email) .. I haven't been following all discussions closely, but have just read this thread and decided to share my self-brainstorming on the list !! Since 'ASCII' and 'Script' are not understood by non-technical audience, 'Latin' is inaccurate as described by Don below, and 'Language' causes many sensitives as highlighted by Andrew, the following may be an option: d) non-(a-z) - is this accurate enough, easy enough and short enough? As IDNs may still include one or more ASCII characters, this may be more accurate, yet not as simple as d) e) ... including non-(a-z) characters: I also agree that this is context- and audience-based, i.e. the easiest way would be to use an example or mention 'domain names in your native language' .. but maybe this could serve verbal messages .. Just sharing a few thoughts .. Very much appreciate all your efforts and really hope to be able to participate more actively .. Kind Regards --Manal Manal Ismail Egypt GAC Representative Executive Director, International Technical Coordination National Telecom Regulatory Authority of Egypt (NTRA) -----Original Message----- From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Hollander Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 9:21 PM To: UA-discuss@icann.org Subject: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?[WARNING: ATTACHMENT UNSCANNED] I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one. So, how would you simply refer to IDNs. a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment. I’m looking for something really short. Your thoughts? Don
a On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> wrote:
I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one.
So, how would you simply refer to IDNs.
a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment.
I’m looking for something really short.
Your thoughts?
Don
-- *Jean Guillon* contact@jovenet.email Phone: +33.631109837 www.jovenet.consulting
C works here…it’s just less imperfect than the others. Agree with what many have said on this thread…the “right” answer is audience and contextually specific. Richard Merdinger VP, Domains - GoDaddy From: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Contact <contact@jovenet.email> Date: Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 8:14 AM To: Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? a On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote: I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one. So, how would you simply refer to IDNs. a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment. I’m looking for something really short. Your thoughts? Don -- [mage removed by sender.] Jean Guillon contact@jovenet.email Phone: +33.631109837 www.jovenet.consulting<http://www.jovenet.consulting>
I’d agree with Richard. If you’re speaking to non-technical people whose native language is English then C is the best option. ASCII doesn’t mean anything to most non-geeks / techies. I usually use an example when writing about IDNs. In Irish the simplest one is: Seán vs sean http://blog.blacknight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Blog-fada-660x372.jpg Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265, Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Richard Merdinger <rmerdinger@godaddy.com> Date: Friday 29 July 2016 at 21:08 To: Contact <contact@jovenet.email>, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? C works here…it’s just less imperfect than the others. Agree with what many have said on this thread…the “right” answer is audience and contextually specific. Richard Merdinger VP, Domains - GoDaddy From: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Contact <contact@jovenet.email> Date: Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 8:14 AM To: Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <UA-discuss@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? a On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote: I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one. So, how would you simply refer to IDNs. a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment. I’m looking for something really short. Your thoughts? Don -- [age removed by sender.] Jean Guillon contact@jovenet.email Phone: +33.631109837 www.jovenet.consulting<http://www.jovenet.consulting>
<pedantic> Disagree with Don on B – (classical) Latin has *fewer* characters than English (no “j”, no “u”, and no “w”) </pedantic> I’m OK with C in spite of it’s limitations. From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Michele Neylon - Blacknight Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 8:27 PM To: Richard Merdinger <rmerdinger@godaddy.com>; Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org> Cc: UA-discuss@icann.org Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? I’d agree with Richard. If you’re speaking to non-technical people whose native language is English then C is the best option. ASCII doesn’t mean anything to most non-geeks / techies. I usually use an example when writing about IDNs. In Irish the simplest one is: Seán vs sean http://blog.blacknight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Blog-fada-660x372.jpg<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fblog.blacknight.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2016%2f03%2fBlog-fada-660x372.jpg&data=01%7c01%7cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7ca5400e596cfd4132a52308d3b8f28ff9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=BK2mDA3shFXcTtFPjfDWvYBZVxPZq1VSrT9ZcGzu3k0%3d> Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265, Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Richard Merdinger <rmerdinger@godaddy.com<mailto:rmerdinger@godaddy.com>> Date: Friday 29 July 2016 at 21:08 To: Contact <contact@jovenet.email<mailto:contact@jovenet.email>>, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>" <UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? C works here…it’s just less imperfect than the others. Agree with what many have said on this thread…the “right” answer is audience and contextually specific. Richard Merdinger VP, Domains - GoDaddy From: <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Contact <contact@jovenet.email<mailto:contact@jovenet.email>> Date: Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 8:14 AM To: Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>" <UA-discuss@icann.org<mailto:UA-discuss@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience? a On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 9:21 PM, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote: I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one. So, how would you simply refer to IDNs. a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment. I’m looking for something really short. Your thoughts? Don -- [age removed by sender.] Jean Guillon contact@jovenet.email<mailto:contact@jovenet.email> Phone: +33.631109837 www.jovenet.consulting<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.jovenet....>
Ah!😀 I have had many conversations on this topic😀 In my experience in comes down to the context, the people one is conversing with. In Computer Science academic circles I mostly use the term "Unicode Domain Name". In Computer Science Academic circles though, I do still have to firstly explain what Unicode is, as few understand Unicode. Once Unicode is explained then I find that "Unicode Domain Name" works quite well. Unicode Domain Name indicates that the Domain Name can be composed of characters across the range of available Unicode characters and thus multiple human language scripts. For a single term for non techies (actually for most techies as well) I would go for and have used many times myself the term "non-English Domain Names". Sometimes I use the term "non-English Web Addresses". I do though think it essential to give examples of working IDNs with the explanation. I really do mean working examples. I have seen far too many presentation slides that give IDNs that do not work. I make a point of trying out IDNs I see in presentation slides. Explanation of IDNs on websites and Apps could be made adaptive based on the user determined preferred display language. So, for example, if user set preferred language is Chinese, then use Chinese IDNs as examples. This would be a direct and literal implementation of "Your Language Domain Names". This could be done on https://uasg.tech André Schappo On 22 Jul 2016, at 20:21, Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org<mailto:don.hollander@icann.org>> wrote: I’ve been grappling with this for la very long and now find out I’m not the only one. So, how would you simply refer to IDNs. a) non-ASCII - probably technically correct, but would your grandmother know what this meant? b) non-Latin - Not even close to being correct as Latin character sets have all sorts of extra bits and bobs c) non-English - Currently my favourite at the moment. I’m looking for something really short. Your thoughts? Don
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 02:32:14PM +0000, Andre Schappo wrote:
Unicode Domain Name indicates that the Domain Name can be composed of characters across the range of available Unicode characters and thus multiple human language scripts.
Of course, it has the notable disadvantage that it isn't true. For instance, IDNA doesn't permit emoji.
For a single term for non techies (actually for most techies as well) I would go for and have used many times myself the term "non-English Domain Names".
I know I've already said it, but suggesting that traditional LDH domain names are in "English" reinforces a pernicious myth that has caused a great deal of trouble already. A big part of the confusion exposed in the Variant Issues Project was attributable to this extremely bad idea that domain names are "in English", and the attempts by many people to make rules requiring linguistic clues for domain names is hurting the very deployability that this project is supposed to care about. For there is literally no way to make linguistic rules that aren't subject to attacks, which tends to encourage exactly the sort of in-client responses that prevent the acceptance we want. This is why talking about "your way of writing" or similar kinds of things are better. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
Of course, my daughter would assume that “your way of writing” includes emojis ☺ Point taken, but I couldn’t resist. When I talk to people, I “colloquialize” with terms like “local character sets” or “local language.” The problem is, when we are “technically correct,” confusion ensues. Richard Merdinger VP, Domains - GoDaddy e: rmerdinger@godaddy.com m: +1.319.530.4100 s: Richard.Merdinger On 7/29/16, 3:34 PM, "ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Andrew Sullivan" <ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org on behalf of ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> wrote: On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 02:32:14PM +0000, Andre Schappo wrote: >Unicode Domain Name indicates that the Domain Name can be composed of characters across the range of available Unicode characters and thus multiple human language scripts. > Of course, it has the notable disadvantage that it isn't true. For instance, IDNA doesn't permit emoji. > For a single term for non techies (actually for most techies as well) I would go for and have used many times myself the term "non-English Domain Names". I know I've already said it, but suggesting that traditional LDH domain names are in "English" reinforces a pernicious myth that has caused a great deal of trouble already. A big part of the confusion exposed in the Variant Issues Project was attributable to this extremely bad idea that domain names are "in English", and the attempts by many people to make rules requiring linguistic clues for domain names is hurting the very deployability that this project is supposed to care about. For there is literally no way to make linguistic rules that aren't subject to attacks, which tends to encourage exactly the sort of in-client responses that prevent the acceptance we want. This is why talking about "your way of writing" or similar kinds of things are better. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 08:58:45PM +0000, Richard Merdinger wrote:
Of course, my daughter would assume that “your way of writing” includes emojis ☺
Yes, that's a problem I've been worried about for some time. More correctly, of course, we should say "your writing system", which is somewhat more formal.
Point taken, but I couldn’t resist. When I talk to people, I “colloquialize” with terms like “local character sets” or “local language.” The problem is, when we are “technically correct,” confusion ensues.
When we're not, it also ensues, and in a dangerous way. Indeed, the _point_ of 2008 was to solve the problem that 2003 didn't only include things that delivered stable identifiers. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
participants (14)
-
Andre Schappo -
Andrew Sullivan -
Arto Isokoski -
Carolyn Nguyen (CELA) -
Contact -
Dave Crocker -
Don Hollander -
Dusan Stojicevic -
Jothan Frakes -
Manal Ismail -
Mark Svancarek -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Richard Merdinger -
Stuart Stuple