Harish Chowdhary
National Internet Exchange of India (NIXI)

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
non-technical audience? (Naomi Pearce)
2. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
non-technical audience? (Andrew Sullivan)
3. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
non-technical audience? (Naomi Pearce)
4. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to   a
non-technical audience? (Mark Svancarek)
5. Notes from UA Coordination Group Call (Don Hollander)
6. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII   to   a
non-technical audience? (Dusan Stojicevic)
7. Re: Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII   to   a
non-technical audience? (Andrew Sullivan)
8. Re: Language - how do you refer to   non-ASCII   to   a
non-technical audience? (Dusan Stojicevic)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:44:07 -0700
From: Naomi Pearce <naomi@well.com>
To: UA-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
   a   non-technical audience?
Message-ID:
   <r470Ps-1095i-650F63827FE14E858BEE71247142E11D@75-101-50-192.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

I keep tripping up on referring to language being "non-" something.

Here's why. If I ask you to think of an elephant that isn't
blue, what's the first thing you think of? Often, it's a blue
elephant first, then one works to get to non-blue.

In sports, coaches deal with this all the time. For example, if
a coach tells a baseball pitcher to avoid pitching low and
inside, sure enough, the tendency will be low, or inside.
Therefore, the coach is the one who has to do the translation of
what it is they actually want, rather than what they don't want
-- in the example, to pitch to the outside, or to pitch higher.
[Feel free to adjust the example to any sport, or coached
activity, that you like.]

In our case, I ask myself if it would be better to focus on what
the language is, rather than isn't. That's where it gets challenging.

A half-step would be talking about languages 'beyond' English.
It still has a fair amount of the blue-elephant problem.

I think 'domains in world languages' is heading in the right
direction, though it's a tad dense in that I have no idea what a
'world language' is unless I mentally work really hard. Ergo,
some brainstormed notions below... take what you need and leave
the rest.

On 7/22/16 at 12:41 PM, jothan@jothan.com (Jothan Frakes) wrote:

>Not sure if 'domains in world languages'

In case any of these suggestions or ideas resonate, how about:

'domains in all languages'
'domains in all written languages'
'domains in every language'
'domains in any major language'
'domains in any language used in the world'
'domains in most major languages'
'domains in many kinds of languages'
'domains in various languages used in the world'
'domains in the native languages used in the world'
'domains in native languages'
'domains in local languages'

Just thoughts...

--
TTFN, tah tah for now,

Naomi Pearce
Pearce Communications
510/528-0824

***********************************************************
"Any fool can farm flatland!"
-- Walter Camp
***********************************************************

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 15:07:14 -0400
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
To: ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
   a non-technical audience?
Message-ID: <20160803190714.GM18305@mx2.yitter.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Wed, Aug 03, 2016 at 11:44:07AM -0700, Naomi Pearce wrote:
> I keep tripping up on referring to language being "non-" something.

And again, I'll point out that language is the wrong word, no matter
_what_ you pick.

I'm not being merely bloody-minded here. Here, for instance, are the
names in the NS set for one of my mail domains:

crankycanuck.ca.   86400   IN   NS   ns3159.dns.dyn.com.
crankycanuck.ca.   86400   IN   NS   ns4152.dns.dyn.com.
crankycanuck.ca.   86400   IN   NS   ns1138.dns.dyn.com.
crankycanuck.ca.   86400   IN   NS   ns2176.dns.dyn.com.

Maybe if you squint, "crankycanuck" is a compound word in English.
"DNS" might be a word, but it's not merely in English: it's the name
of the service, and so it's a word in every language. Dyn is the name
of my employer, so there again it's not in English. (Indeed, it's not
in English anyway. It's pronounced "dine" as in "Dynamic Network
Services", but any English pronunciation rule says it should be
pronounced "din". In China, I find, it's pronounced "dee-wye-en",
with very little pause where the hyphens are.) It's quite clear that
ca, com, and nsNNNN are not words in English.

"The writing systems of the whole world" is accurate. "Your local way
of writing" is accurate. "The writing systems of many different
languages" is correct. "Your language" is not, ever, period.

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 12:26:24 -0700
From: Naomi Pearce <naomi@well.com>
To: ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
   a   non-technical audience?
Message-ID:
   <r470Ps-1095i-EAE56438A4C24C09BB6524F885603E1C@75-101-50-192.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Nice! Good stuff.

On 8/3/16 at 12:07 PM, ajs@anvilwalrusden.com (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:

> "Your local way
> of writing" is accurate.

> "The writing systems of many different
> languages" is correct.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 20:57:39 +0000
From: Mark Svancarek <marksv@microsoft.com>
To: Naomi Pearce <naomi@well.com>, "ua-discuss@icann.org"
   <ua-discuss@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to
   a   non-technical audience?
Message-ID:
   <CO2PR03MB2135078B7A94C64A78CE335AD1060@CO2PR03MB2135.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

"Your local way of writing" is terrific.
It's accurate and concise and conveys the emotional impact that people should get when they realize the benefit they will receive.

-----Original Message-----
From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Naomi Pearce
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 12:26 PM
To: ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?

Nice! Good stuff.

On 8/3/16 at 12:07 PM, ajs@anvilwalrusden.com (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:

> "Your local way
> of writing" is accurate.

> "The writing systems of many different languages" is correct.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 02:02:52 +0000
From: Don Hollander <don.hollander@icann.org>
To: "ua-coordination@icann.org" <ua-coordination@icann.org>
Cc: "UA-discuss@icann.org" <UA-discuss@icann.org>
Subject: [UA-discuss] Notes from UA Coordination Group Call
Message-ID: <638CC3AB-CE8F-4F0A-A8BD-09485ECAD787@icann.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Attached are the notes from today?s UASG Coordination Group call.

Please review and advise for accuracy and completeness.

Thanks.

Don

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 04:55:53 +0200
From: "Dusan Stojicevic" <dusan@dukes.in.rs>
To: "'Mark Svancarek'" <marksv@microsoft.com>,   "'Naomi Pearce'"
   <naomi@well.com>, "'ua-discuss'" <UA-discuss@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII   to
   a   non-technical audience?
Message-ID: <020201d1edfb$b7df3d50$279db7f0$@dukes.in.rs>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="utf-8"

Dear all,

Few thoughts>
"Your local way of writing", without referring to specific script, can be understood like cursive.
Also, what is local way of writing for China - vertical (which is traditional one)? Simplified script or ...?
Or - "Oh, I don't need to write those dots in domain name, I can use without them and put the dot at the end of the sentence" :).
There is a lot of meanings for "Your local way of writing", so "accurate" is under a question.

Secondly, "Your local way of writing", without referring to specific script, put "emotional impact" in a position where it depends on the person who say that and who is in the audience.
Do You mean Cyrillic, or Thai, or some other script, or all... Can be confusing.
Person - if it's a native English speaker, probably ok. If it's me or other non-native English speaker - does it means that Cyrillic is excluded, or it's about just a domestic, local script.
And, you have better knowledge about PR for sure, but - "Your" without referring to specific script CAN be offensive sometime - depends on the audience and "the moment".

If it's written - it creates another confusing dimension. Let say, do we have Rusyn Cyrillic? Are we sure about ALL scripts for all possible readers of that doc?
Or simply: "Oh, Serbia (or name it) is a small country, probably there is no Serbian script there".
And finally, in broader sense - "Your local way of writing" is a set of all scripts, including ASCII which we want to exclude on the first place.

We need a simple term, few words, that can be understood properly by all, which doesn't mean that we need to be technically precise...

My two cents...
Dusan

-----Original Message-----
From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mark Svancarek via UA-discuss
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 10:58 PM
To: Naomi Pearce <naomi@well.com>; ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?

"Your local way of writing" is terrific.
It's accurate and concise and conveys the emotional impact that people should get when they realize the benefit they will receive.

-----Original Message-----
From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Naomi Pearce
Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2016 12:26 PM
To: ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a non-technical audience?

Nice! Good stuff.

On 8/3/16 at 12:07 PM, ajs@anvilwalrusden.com (Andrew Sullivan) wrote:

> "Your local way
> of writing" is accurate.

> "The writing systems of many different languages" is correct.

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2016 23:05:16 -0400
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
To: ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII   to
   a   non-technical audience?
Message-ID: <20160804030516.GR18305@mx2.yitter.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 04:55:53AM +0200, Dusan Stojicevic wrote:
> And finally, in broader sense - "Your local way of writing" is a set of all scripts, including ASCII which we want to exclude on the first place.
>

I don't know what it would mean to try to exclude ASCII from the DNS.
In a registry, I suppose you could accept only U-labels for
registration. That wouldn't constrain subordinate names anyway.

> We need a simple term, few words, that can be understood properly by all, which doesn't mean that we need to be technically precise...
>

Well, it needs not to be actually wrong, too. Domain names aren't in
a language, and the repetition of the trope that this or that domain
name is "in" some language is doing a lot of harm. It leads people to
believe in variant systems, tests of meaningfulness of domain names,
and other fairy stories that create lots of opportunities for demands
that cannot be satisfied. If the goal of this project is universal
acceptance, then we'd best not create conditions where we make it even
more likely people will reject these domain names.

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2016 06:20:03 +0200
From: "Dusan Stojicevic" <dusan@dukes.in.rs>
To: <ua-discuss@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to   non-ASCII   to
   a   non-technical audience?
Message-ID: <023c01d1ee07$79ee7ef0$6dcb7cd0$@dukes.in.rs>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset="us-ascii"

I apologize for the first thing, probably I was not precise. We don't know
who is reading (or is in the audience), and if we assume that all people can
read this doc (or hear this term), then we include "everybody" - meaning
also those who use ASCII in "local way of writing". And we are trying to
find something to represent "non-ASCII".
For the second one, I agree to the point that it needs not to be actually
wrong. For the rest, I still think that most convenient is non-English, but
only for this target audience. I don't want to go further into discussion
why nba.com for those people is "in" English language, or why 123456 is a
number for them (and that's how they remember and read this) but it's
actually PIN which is numeric password or it can be vehicle registration
plate with different meaning for each digit (without numeric value as a
whole number)... Let say, we agree that we disagree on this one :)

Cheers,
Dusan

-----Original Message-----
From: ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ua-discuss-bounces@icann.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 5:05 AM
To: ua-discuss@icann.org
Subject: Re: [UA-discuss] Language - how do you refer to non-ASCII to a
non-technical audience?

On Thu, Aug 04, 2016 at 04:55:53AM +0200, Dusan Stojicevic wrote:
> And finally, in broader sense - "Your local way of writing" is a set of
all scripts, including ASCII which we want to exclude on the first place.
>

I don't know what it would mean to try to exclude ASCII from the DNS.
In a registry, I suppose you could accept only U-labels for registration.
That wouldn't constrain subordinate names anyway.

> We need a simple term, few words, that can be understood properly by all,
which doesn't mean that we need to be technically precise...
>

Well, it needs not to be actually wrong, too. Domain names aren't in a
language, and the repetition of the trope that this or that domain name is
"in" some language is doing a lot of harm. It leads people to believe in
variant systems, tests of meaningfulness of domain names, and other fairy
stories that create lots of opportunities for demands that cannot be
satisfied. If the goal of this project is universal acceptance, then we'd
best not create conditions where we make it even more likely people will
reject these domain names.

A

--
Andrew Sullivan
ajs@anvilwalrusden.com

------------------------------

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