Another China time zone question
Dear time zone list: I have been doing a little research on time zones in China, and one of the few sources on the matter seems to contradict the tz database. While the database indicates there were multiple time zones until 1980, Guo Qingheng of the Chinese Academy of Science Time Service Center published an article in 2003 in which he states that primary documents indicate that "probably in order to comply with instructions from central broadcasters, after liberation [that is, after 1949] the broadcasters in each area very quickly changed their local times to Beijing Time, in order to express unanimity with the center." And that "by the beginning of 1950, within a few months after establishing the country, the entire country except for Xinjiang and Tibet was all using the Beijing Time standard," with Tibet following in 1960 and Xinjiang by 1975 (Guo Qingsheng [郭庆生], "Beijing Time at the Beginning of the PRC [建国初期的北京时间]." The Chinese Journal for the History of Science and Technology [中国科技史料]. Vol. 24, No. 1, (2003), p2.) So I was wondering what the sources are for China having multiple time zones from 1949-1980, and who is correct here. Any help is appreciated! Best, Jonathan Hassid UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. Think. Green. Do. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On 10/12/2010 06:24 PM, Jonathan Hassid wrote:
So I was wondering what the sources are for China having multiple time zones from 1949-1980, and who is correct here
Thanks for bringing that source to our attention. Our source for the current set of historical data is: Thomas G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger, The International Atlas (6th edition), San Diego: ACS Publications, Inc. (2003). ISBN 0-935127-88-7. There is also one other reliable source, though alas it contains just one transition: China: if it's light, it must be Urumqi TIME, 1986-02-17, p. 52 <http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,960684,00.html> (Naturally the two sources disagree. :-)
From the TIME source, it's quite clear that the question of what time it is in Urumqi has been controversial for years, and I expect that it'll be as hard to get reliable data for Urumqi as it is for Mongolia.
All that being said, I think the source you provided is more reliable than Shanks & Pottenger for older time stamps. I found it abstracted at <http://www.cqvip.com/qk/91361x/2003001/7468687.html> but unfortunately cannot read it. Can you summarize what it says, precisely enough for us to generate tables from it? For example, the abstract says there was a transition most likely on 1949-09-27 (though it could have been as late as 1949-10-06), but it doesn't say what the transition was from, or to, or where the transition occurred (presumably Beijing?). Your email says the rest of the country switched by the beginning of 1950, with the exception of Tibet following in 1960 and Xinjiang by 1975; are there more details about what the transitions were from and when they occurred?
I finally got the time to do some translation work from the article. On Beijing Time: Guo says that the transition to Beijing time (though not completely clear, apparently from "Central Standard Time") happened between 27 Sep 1949 and 6 Oct, 1949 most likely on 27 Sep based on certain clues in government documents from the period. There is a longish discussion about whether Beijing time means local solar time or based on a GMT offset, and Guo argues that between 27 Sep 1949 and 1954 (date unspecified), "Beijing time" meant local Beijing solar time (with an offset varying by time of year of course, but generally between 46 and 56 minutes earlier than 120 degree latitude time). Starting in 1954, Beijing time means 120 degree latitude time. And in other parts of the country: The Xi'an broadcasting station (capital of Shaanxi province) transitioned to "Beijing time" on 7 Oct, 1949, and the Xi'an government announced an official transition for everyone from "Shulong" (or "Gansu/Sichuan") time to Beijing time on 2 Nov. 1949. The government in Chengdu (capital of Sichuan province) announced the switch (from "Shulong" (Gansu/Sichuan) time) to Beijing time on 27 Dec. 1949. The rest of the country followed "in early 1950" (dates unspecified), and as I mentioned in my last email, "by the beginning of 1950, within a few months after establishing the country, the entire country except for Xinjiang and Tibet was all using the Beijing Time standard." Tibet "started using Beijing time in the latter half of 1960." The situation in Xinjiang is a bit more complicated, as the Xinjiang government announced the province would switch to Beijing time on 1 July 1969, but then had to issue separate instructions on the same issue 1 May 1975 and 1 Feb 1986. The TIME article seems correct in that Xinjiang started using a sort of quasi-official Urumqi time "before Feb. 1986," but this does not apply to the rest of the county. So in other words, I read it that between 1949 (and earlier?) and 1 July 1969, Xinjiang was officially on Urumqi time, and between 1 July 1969 and 1 Feb 1986, was officially on Beijing time, and then after 1 Feb. 1986 was also officially on Beijing time "for military business, trains, flights, the postal service, etc" and for most people and "government organs, mining enterprises, schools, etc" was on quasi-official Urumqi time. I do hope this is helpful! Guo is sometimes a bit vague on dates, which I'm sure won't help when constructing a table. Best, Jonathan ________________________________________ From: Paul Eggert [eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 4:54 PM To: tz@elsie.nci.nih.gov Cc: Jonathan Hassid Subject: Re: Another China time zone question On 10/12/2010 06:24 PM, Jonathan Hassid wrote:
So I was wondering what the sources are for China having multiple time zones from 1949-1980, and who is correct here
Thanks for bringing that source to our attention. Our source for the current set of historical data is: Thomas G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger, The International Atlas (6th edition), San Diego: ACS Publications, Inc. (2003). ISBN 0-935127-88-7. There is also one other reliable source, though alas it contains just one transition: China: if it's light, it must be Urumqi TIME, 1986-02-17, p. 52 <http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,960684,00.html> (Naturally the two sources disagree. :-)
From the TIME source, it's quite clear that the question of what time it is in Urumqi has been controversial for years, and I expect that it'll be as hard to get reliable data for Urumqi as it is for Mongolia.
All that being said, I think the source you provided is more reliable than Shanks & Pottenger for older time stamps. I found it abstracted at <http://www.cqvip.com/qk/91361x/2003001/7468687.html> but unfortunately cannot read it. Can you summarize what it says, precisely enough for us to generate tables from it? For example, the abstract says there was a transition most likely on 1949-09-27 (though it could have been as late as 1949-10-06), but it doesn't say what the transition was from, or to, or where the transition occurred (presumably Beijing?). Your email says the rest of the country switched by the beginning of 1950, with the exception of Tibet following in 1960 and Xinjiang by 1975; are there more details about what the transitions were from and when they occurred? UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. Think. Green. Do. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Jonathan Hassid wrote:
There is a longish discussion about whether Beijing time means local solar time or based on a GMT offset, and Guo argues that between 27 Sep 1949 and 1954 (date unspecified), "Beijing time" meant local Beijing solar time (with an offset varying by time of year of course, but generally between 46 and 56 minutes earlier than 120 degree latitude time).
That's surprising. It's easier to generate time signals based on mean solar time, not aparrent solar time. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ HUMBER THAMES DOVER WIGHT PORTLAND: NORTH BACKING WEST OR NORTHWEST, 5 TO 7, DECREASING 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 LATER IN HUMBER AND THAMES. MODERATE OR ROUGH. RAIN THEN FAIR. GOOD.
Being a political scientist, I can't claim to know the difference between mean and apparent solar time, but one of the relevant portions in the article says: "... so the greatest probability is that the 'Beijing Time' they were then using [ie before 1954] is not Beijing mean time (北京地方平时) but actual Beijing solar time (北京地方的真太阳时)" (p3). -Jonathan On Oct 18, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Tony Finch wrote:
On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Jonathan Hassid wrote:
There is a longish discussion about whether Beijing time means local solar time or based on a GMT offset, and Guo argues that between 27 Sep 1949 and 1954 (date unspecified), "Beijing time" meant local Beijing solar time (with an offset varying by time of year of course, but generally between 46 and 56 minutes earlier than 120 degree latitude time).
That's surprising. It's easier to generate time signals based on mean solar time, not aparrent solar time.
Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ HUMBER THAMES DOVER WIGHT PORTLAND: NORTH BACKING WEST OR NORTHWEST, 5 TO 7, DECREASING 4 OR 5, OCCASIONALLY 6 LATER IN HUMBER AND THAMES. MODERATE OR ROUGH. RAIN THEN FAIR. GOOD.
UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F DISCLAIMER: This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of the University of Technology Sydney. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. Think. Green. Do. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
Rule Palestine 2009 only - Mar lastFri 0:00 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2010 max - Mar lastSat 0:01 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2009 max - Sep Fri>=1 2:00 0 - Rule Palestine 2010 only - Aug 11 0:00 0 - 2009 max??? Should the above read: Rule Palestine 2009 only - Mar lastFri 0:00 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2010 max - Mar lastSat 0:01 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2009 only - Sep Fri>=1 2:00 0 - Rule Palestine 2010 only - Aug 11 0:00 0 -Rule Rule Palestine 2011 max - Sep Fri>=1 2:00 0 - --CRM
On 2010-10-22 15:38, Zoidiasoft Tech wrote:
Rule Palestine 2009 only - Mar lastFri 0:00 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2010 max - Mar lastSat 0:01 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2009 max - Sep Fri>=1 2:00 0 - Rule Palestine 2010 only - Aug 11 0:00 0 -
2009 max??? Should the above read:
Rule Palestine 2009 only - Mar lastFri 0:00 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2010 max - Mar lastSat 0:01 1:00 S Rule Palestine 2009 only - Sep Fri>=1 2:00 0 - Rule Palestine 2010 only - Aug 11 0:00 0 -Rule Rule Palestine 2011 max - Sep Fri>=1 2:00 0 -
--CRM
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participants (5)
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David Patte -
Jonathan Hassid -
Paul Eggert -
Tony Finch -
Zoidiasoft Tech