Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
After taking some time off from this issue, I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. As a Queenslander I will start with the Queensland Attorney-General, as the timezone legislation falls under his responsibility. I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time. I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed. Shaun
I've noticed that the timezones for the Eucla region (UTC+08:45/CWST) and Lord Howe Island (UTC+10:30 with 30mins advance for DST/LHST-LHDT) always seem to be neglected in discussion. The fact that there are official timezones for these areas should mean they are added to the Australian Government website. In addition, should territories such as Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands which are under some sort of Australian control also be added to the list of discussed Australian timezones? Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. -----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Shaun Bouckaert Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 4:40 PM To: tz@iana.org Subject: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step After taking some time off from this issue, I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. As a Queenslander I will start with the Queensland Attorney-General, as the timezone legislation falls under his responsibility. I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time. I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed. Shaun
This issue has been specifically about the abbreviations for the primary timezones of Australia, those listed on the federal governments website. Is the issue with the timezones you've mentioned the abreviations, or that they aren't distinct timezones in the data? If they aren't, but should be, especially in regards to the relevent legislation, perhaps a seperate topic about that should be raised. Shaun On 11 October 2012 17:04, David Grosz <david@dlg.com.au> wrote:
I've noticed that the timezones for the Eucla region (UTC+08:45/CWST) and Lord Howe Island (UTC+10:30 with 30mins advance for DST/LHST-LHDT) always seem to be neglected in discussion. The fact that there are official timezones for these areas should mean they are added to the Australian Government website.
In addition, should territories such as Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands which are under some sort of Australian control also be added to the list of discussed Australian timezones?
Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Shaun Bouckaert Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 4:40 PM To: tz@iana.org Subject: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
After taking some time off from this issue, I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. As a Queenslander I will start with the Queensland Attorney-General, as the timezone legislation falls under his responsibility.
I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time. I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed.
Shaun
These timezones should be added to the Australian Government website but they should not be forgotten as to the abbreviations used. The Lord Howe Island and Eucla timezones are referred to with the abbreviations as I indicated below in the TZ database. Even the Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands timezones are also included in the Australasia file within TZ. These abbreviations should be included in this discussion but another topic addressing the Australian Government website should be raised to ensure all timezones are mentioned. Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. -----Original Message----- From: Shaun Bouckaert [mailto:shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 7:47 PM To: tz@iana.org Cc: david@dlg.com.au Subject: Re: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step This issue has been specifically about the abbreviations for the primary timezones of Australia, those listed on the federal governments website. Is the issue with the timezones you've mentioned the abreviations, or that they aren't distinct timezones in the data? If they aren't, but should be, especially in regards to the relevent legislation, perhaps a seperate topic about that should be raised. Shaun On 11 October 2012 17:04, David Grosz <david@dlg.com.au> wrote:
I've noticed that the timezones for the Eucla region (UTC+08:45/CWST) and Lord Howe Island (UTC+10:30 with 30mins advance for DST/LHST-LHDT) always seem to be neglected in discussion. The fact that there are official timezones for these areas should mean they are added to the Australian Government website.
In addition, should territories such as Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands which are under some sort of Australian control also be added to the list of discussed Australian timezones?
Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Shaun Bouckaert Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 4:40 PM To: tz@iana.org Subject: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
After taking some time off from this issue, I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. As a Queenslander I will start with the Queensland Attorney-General, as the timezone legislation falls under his responsibility.
I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time. I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed.
Shaun
The issue with regards to the Australian government's website should be brought up with whomever/whichever department manages that page. This mailing list is really just for the management of the tzdata database. I agree that it should probably include all Australian timezones though. It'd be interesting if those timezones are given the correct abbreviations in the database but the primary mainland timezones are still incorrect. Shaun On 11 October 2012 19:07, David Grosz <david@dlg.com.au> wrote:
These timezones should be added to the Australian Government website but they should not be forgotten as to the abbreviations used. The Lord Howe Island and Eucla timezones are referred to with the abbreviations as I indicated below in the TZ database. Even the Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands timezones are also included in the Australasia file within TZ. These abbreviations should be included in this discussion but another topic addressing the Australian Government website should be raised to ensure all timezones are mentioned.
Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
-----Original Message----- From: Shaun Bouckaert [mailto:shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 7:47 PM To: tz@iana.org Cc: david@dlg.com.au Subject: Re: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
This issue has been specifically about the abbreviations for the primary timezones of Australia, those listed on the federal governments website. Is the issue with the timezones you've mentioned the abreviations, or that they aren't distinct timezones in the data? If they aren't, but should be, especially in regards to the relevent legislation, perhaps a seperate topic about that should be raised.
Shaun
On 11 October 2012 17:04, David Grosz <david@dlg.com.au> wrote:
I've noticed that the timezones for the Eucla region (UTC+08:45/CWST) and Lord Howe Island (UTC+10:30 with 30mins advance for DST/LHST-LHDT) always seem to be neglected in discussion. The fact that there are official timezones for these areas should mean they are added to the Australian Government website.
In addition, should territories such as Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands which are under some sort of Australian control also be added to the list of discussed Australian timezones?
Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Shaun Bouckaert Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 4:40 PM To: tz@iana.org Subject: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
After taking some time off from this issue, I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. As a Queenslander I will start with the Queensland Attorney-General, as the timezone legislation falls under his responsibility.
I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time. I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed.
Shaun
The funny thing about these abbreviations is that the regional timezones not included in the Australian Government Website but used in TZ and also on other websites such as www.timeanddate.com is consistent using four character codes as with the Australian Government website for major Australian timezones. As such, I believe the zimezones in TZ should be updated to be inline with the Australian Government website's use of the abbreviations. The current abbreviations used for major Australian timezones by TZ are the same abbreviations as timezones used in USA. Shouldn't each timezone use a unique abbreviation? Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't. -----Original Message----- From: Shaun Bouckaert [mailto:shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 8:27 PM To: tz@iana.org Cc: david@dlg.com.au Subject: Re: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step The issue with regards to the Australian government's website should be brought up with whomever/whichever department manages that page. This mailing list is really just for the management of the tzdata database. I agree that it should probably include all Australian timezones though. It'd be interesting if those timezones are given the correct abbreviations in the database but the primary mainland timezones are still incorrect. Shaun On 11 October 2012 19:07, David Grosz <david@dlg.com.au> wrote:
These timezones should be added to the Australian Government website but they should not be forgotten as to the abbreviations used. The Lord Howe Island and Eucla timezones are referred to with the abbreviations as I indicated below in the TZ database. Even the Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands timezones are also included in the Australasia file within TZ. These abbreviations should be included in this discussion but another topic addressing the Australian Government website should be raised to ensure all timezones are mentioned.
Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
-----Original Message----- From: Shaun Bouckaert [mailto:shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 7:47 PM To: tz@iana.org Cc: david@dlg.com.au Subject: Re: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
This issue has been specifically about the abbreviations for the primary timezones of Australia, those listed on the federal governments website. Is the issue with the timezones you've mentioned the abreviations, or that they aren't distinct timezones in the data? If they aren't, but should be, especially in regards to the relevent legislation, perhaps a seperate topic about that should be raised.
Shaun
On 11 October 2012 17:04, David Grosz <david@dlg.com.au> wrote:
I've noticed that the timezones for the Eucla region (UTC+08:45/CWST) and Lord Howe Island (UTC+10:30 with 30mins advance for DST/LHST-LHDT) always seem to be neglected in discussion. The fact that there are official timezones for these areas should mean they are added to the Australian Government website.
In addition, should territories such as Christmas Island and Cocos Keeling Islands which are under some sort of Australian control also be added to the list of discussed Australian timezones?
Kind Regards, David Grosz Sydney, Australia
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
-----Original Message----- From: tz-bounces@iana.org [mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org] On Behalf Of Shaun Bouckaert Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2012 4:40 PM To: tz@iana.org Subject: [tz] Australian Timezone Abreviations - Next step
After taking some time off from this issue, I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. As a Queenslander I will start with the Queensland Attorney-General, as the timezone legislation falls under his responsibility.
I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time. I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed.
Shaun
On Oct 11, 2012, at 5:40 AM, David Grosz wrote:
... The current abbreviations used for major Australian timezones by TZ are the same abbreviations as timezones used in USA. Shouldn't each timezone use a unique abbreviation?
Unique worldwide? There's no reason to believe that will ever happen. Timezones are a cultural/political phenomenon, which makes them regional or national things. So their properties -- like names and abbreviations -- are likely to be defined with that mindset. That's why the US timezone abbreviations are unique within the USA, but conflict with those of other countries. The scope (USA) is implied, and at the time those abbreviations were defined there was no real question that this was a logical thing to do. It is not so obvious anymore, but at this point it's way too late. Then there are places where the same zone has many names and many abbreviations -- European timezones are an example. So if you are looking for globally unique abbreviations, that's seriously optimistic. If you also want them to be not just unique but one-to-one, that's even less likely. paul
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Shaun Bouckaert wrote:
I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time.
The main argument, I think, is that people in Australia don't agree among themselves, so there is no basis for making any sort of change in the TZ database. If you can get the people in Australia to agree with each other, or if they already agree with each other then if you can document such agreement, then I think that it will be easy to persuade the tzdata community. On the other hand, as long as the tzdata community is under the impression that there is no agreement within Australia, then it will be very difficult to persuade the tzdata community to make any changes.
I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Some .gov.au web sites use three-letter abbreviations like "EST" and some use four letter abbreviationslike "AEST", as can easily be found by a google search for 'domain:.gov.au time zone EST|AEST'. If you think that one set of abbreviations is correct and the other set is incorrect, then, to make a convincing argument, you need to do a lot more than selectively quote from just one site.
Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed.
Yes, official statements from national and state government departments would be useful. --apb (Alan Barrett)
On 11 October 2012 20:18, Alan Barrett <apb@cequrux.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Shaun Bouckaert wrote:
I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this issue is that it's been this way for a long time.
The main argument, I think, is that people in Australia don't agree among themselves, so there is no basis for making any sort of change in the TZ database.
If you can get the people in Australia to agree with each other, or if they already agree with each other then if you can document such agreement, then I think that it will be easy to persuade the tzdata community. On the other hand, as long as the tzdata community is under the impression that there is no agreement within Australia, then it will be very difficult to persuade the tzdata community to make any changes.
It's kind of ridiculous to propose that we need to get ALL Australians, even just on this list, need to agree before we change it.
I have previously presented many good arguments as to why it needs to be updated to reflect what is widely used amongst government and private organisations across the country, and what is presented by the federal government on this page http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Some .gov.au web sites use three-letter abbreviations like "EST" and some use four letter abbreviationslike "AEST", as can easily be found by a google search for 'domain:.gov.au time zone EST|AEST'. If you think that one set of abbreviations is correct and the other set is incorrect, then, to make a convincing argument, you need to do a lot more than selectively quote from just one site.
Did you ever think that existing uses of the three letter acronyms are because that's the way they are currently in the database? If it's being included based on data in the database, it's going to use what's currently there. This also isn't just one site. This is the page that has been specifically set up to state what the timezones of Australia are.
Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this issue can be resolved and put to bed.
Yes, official statements from national and state government departments would be useful.
--apb (Alan Barrett)
Although I'm certainly making an attempt at this, I still believe that there's more than enough reason to change it now. If there are people in other states (other than Queensland who want to try to contact their own appropriate government departments that would help. Shaun Bouckaert
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 11:45:08 +1000 From: Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CALBLQPY6v-Xq+VrTgkbwt2DFfydoNHAjRbPMZXi1wsNwnsi1dw@mail.gmail.com> | Did you ever think that existing uses of the three letter acronyms are | because that's the way they are currently in the database? Some of them may be but consider ... http://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/australia-time-zones.html (for example) ... Sydney Australia Time Zone: UTC/GMT +10 hours (Eastern Standard Time EST) While that "EST" might perhaps come from our data, someone clearly wrote it as "Eastern Standard Time" by hand - that string isn't in the (compiled) data anywhere. | This also isn't just one site. This is the page that | has been specifically set up to state what the timezones of Australia | are. Yes, just like the one I quoted above, both are aimed at non-Australians (tourists, others wanting to know what time it is in Aust, etc). And both are equally authoritative (zero) - the Commonwealth govt has no authority over time (or what it is called) anywhere in Aust other than ACT, and Northern Territory. What's more, the page that quotes "AEST" and "AEDT" as the zones that apply in Victoria, also gives a link to "more information on daylight saving in Victoria", if you follow that, you find that (among other things) it says ... "Victoria's period of daylight saving will start at 2:00am on Sunday 7 October 2012. At 2:00am standard time (Eastern Standard Time) move clocks forward one hour to 3:00am summer time." Note "Eastern Standard Time" (not Australian Eastern Standard Time) and "to 3:00am summer time" (not to 3amm daylight saving time, and no "Australian" in that either). And this is a Vic Govt website, which is the govt that is responsible for defining the time in Victoria. Ref: http://www.vic.gov.au/daylight-saving-in-victoria.html You should also look at http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamenta... (sorry about the long line) which is Research Paper no. 10 2009-10 Greg Baker Statistics and Mapping Section 19 November 2009 (I think this is "...Section of the Parliamentary Library" but I am not sure of thyat). It says, in part, ... Australia has three time zones. These are called Eastern Standard Time (EST), Central Standard Time (CST), and Western Standard Time (WST) which is sometimes called Western Australian Time. These zones are sometimes referred to as AEST, ACST and AWST respectively where the prefix refers to Australia. These time zones were set up by colonial legislatures in the mid to late 1890s.[6] EST is 10 hours ahead of UTC. In winter it applies to New South Wales, except in Broken Hill[7] which is on CST; Victoria; Queensland; Tasmania; and the Australian Capital Territory. Lord Howe Island is administratively part of New South Wales, but has standard time 10 hours 30 minutes ahead of UTC.[8] CST is 9 hours 30 minutes ahead of UTC. CST applies throughout South Australia, the Northern Territory and Broken Hill in New South Wales.[9] WST is 8 hours ahead of UTC and applies throughout Western Australia. Note the "sometimes referred to" where it refers to AEST (etc), and that it both gives, and internally uses, just "EST" (etc) as the proper abbreviation. There's a lot of useful information in that report (lots of historical info) and it looks to be well researched, it is not (and does not claim to be) authoritative for anything however (and I'm not saying it should be used that way.) | > Yes, official statements from national and state government departments | > would be useful. | Although I'm certainly making an attempt at this, For Qld, I think you'll be able to find (at least extracts from) the Standard Time Act, 1894, on line (just do a web search). From what I can tell, it still applies, essentially unammended. Note no typo, that's 1894 - pre federation, there was no "Australia" then, so it would be astounding if the official name for the timezone were "Australian" anything. In fact, from what I can determine, there is no real name in Qld, just "standard time", which is not surprising for the period. This is why I requested that you get some pointer to authority for whatever opinion you get, so we don't end up just taking some random minor bureaucrat's opinion as being blessed by some Govt authority. | If there are people in other states For NSW & ACT the statutes are also available, neither refer to "Australian" in the names (aside from the "A" in ACT), though from what I can see, neither refer to "Eastern" either, "New South Wales Standard Time" and "ACT Standard Time" appear to be what they use. Vic & Tas used to have legislation online, but it seems to be no longer available (unless you want to pay for it, the Summer Time Act 1972, Vic, is available for $3.90 if you want to acquire it). It used to say "Eastern Standard Time" and "Eastern Summer Time" and I doubt it has been changed (but feel free to acquire a copy, or go visit a law library and examine it there). I haven't looked for SA or WA (for the brief period Summer Time applied in WA). kre
On Fri, 19 Oct 2012, Robert Elz wrote:
I haven't looked for SA or WA (for the brief period Summer Time applied in WA).
kre
For Western Australia, Standard Time Act 2005 http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/main_mrtitle_917_homepage.... Daylight Saving Act 2006 http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/main_mrtitle_247_homepage.... Unfortunately, neither act (or subsiduary regulations) point to an accepted abbreviation, and just use the terms "standard time" and "summer time". The Standard Time Act 2005 does reference UTC as defined by Commonwealth law. Mark -- Mark Tearle <mtearle@tearle.com> “One’s destination is never a place, but a new way of seeing things.” – Henry Miller
On Oct 19, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Mark Tearle <mtearle@tearle.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, neither act (or subsiduary regulations) point to an accepted abbreviation, and just use the terms "standard time" and "summer time".
Just out of curiosity, does *any* country designate Official Time Zone Abbreviations(TM) in law? Not names, but *abbreviations*? Some quick poking around found http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title15/pdf/USCODE-2010-title15-cha... (section 263) specifying time zone names here in the septic tank :-), but it gives names, *not* abbreviations.
On Oct 19, 2012, at 11:34 PM, Guy Harris <guy@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
Just out of curiosity, does *any* country designate Official Time Zone Abbreviations(TM) in law? Not names, but *abbreviations*?
Some quick poking around found
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title15/pdf/USCODE-2010-title15-cha...
(section 263) specifying time zone names here in the septic tank :-), but it gives names, *not* abbreviations.
And, in the Great White North: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I%2D21/section-35.html which also seems to give names, but no abbreviations.
On 20/10/12 17:34 , Guy Harris wrote:
On Oct 19, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Mark Tearle <mtearle@tearle.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, neither act (or subsiduary regulations) point to an accepted abbreviation, and just use the terms "standard time" and "summer time". Just out of curiosity, does *any* country designate Official Time Zone Abbreviations(TM) in law? Not names, but *abbreviations*?
Some quick poking around found
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title15/pdf/USCODE-2010-title15-cha...
(section 263) specifying time zone names here in the septic tank :-), but it gives names, *not* abbreviations.
Next thing you are going to tell me is that the tz project is coming up with random abbreviations when convenient, like FET! The NSW Act doesn't specify EST or EDT: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/download.cgi/cgi-bin/download.cgi/download... At http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/Lawlink/cru/ll_cru.nsf/pages/cru_daylightsavin... it says " NSW legislation does not specify abbreviations for standard or summer time. EST denotes Eastern Standard Time. Summertime or daylight saving time is commonly expressed as EDST (eastern daylight saving time)" Going through the various Standard Time Acts, there are also no abbreviations in it. So.... Consider that there are current issues with the way that the Australian timezones are handled in the TZ data because of its ambiguousness (if such a word exist) with other timezones in the world. And consider that there are no official abbreviations. And consider that there is a lot of places on the Internet already where the unambiguous abbreviations are used. What is stopping the TZ project from using the unambiguous abbreviations so that the people who use the TZ database in Australia or on Australian services don't run into these basic problems anymore? Edwin
(fixed sender email address) On 20/10/12 17:34 , Guy Harris wrote:
On Oct 19, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Mark Tearle<mtearle@tearle.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, neither act (or subsiduary regulations) point to an accepted abbreviation, and just use the terms "standard time" and "summer time". Just out of curiosity, does *any* country designate Official Time Zone Abbreviations(TM) in law? Not names, but *abbreviations*?
Some quick poking around found
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title15/pdf/USCODE-2010-title15-cha...
(section 263) specifying time zone names here in the septic tank :-), but it gives names, *not* abbreviations.
Next thing you are going to tell me is that the tz project is coming up with random abbreviations when convenient, like FET! The NSW Act doesn't specify EST or EDT: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/download.cgi/cgi-bin/download.cgi/download... At http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/Lawlink/cru/ll_cru.nsf/pages/cru_daylightsavin... it says " NSW legislation does not specify abbreviations for standard or summer time. EST denotes Eastern Standard Time. Summertime or daylight saving time is commonly expressed as EDST (eastern daylight saving time)" Going through the various Standard Time Acts, there are also no abbreviations in it. So.... Consider that there are current issues with the way that the Australian timezones are handled in the TZ data because of its ambiguousness (if such a word exist) with other timezones in the world. And consider that there are no official abbreviations. And consider that there is a lot of places on the Internet already where the unambiguous abbreviations are used. What is stopping the TZ project from using the unambiguous abbreviations so that the people who use the TZ database in Australia or on Australian services don't run into these basic problems anymore? Edwin
On 10/20/2012 04:57 AM, Edwin Groothuis wrote:
What is stopping the TZ project from using the unambiguous abbreviations
As I understand it, it's a combination of several things. Australians themselves do not agree on what abbreviations to use. When in doubt, it's better to leave things alone. Finally, ambiguity is not a problem that we're trying to solve; although it's nicer to be unambiguous, we have ambiguity elsewhere and the ambiguity here doesn't make the problem that much worse. All that being said, I just now redid the searches that I did back in 2001, with similar flaws as before, and found the following changes since then: * The phrase "Daylight Time" is now more popular than "Summer Time" when referring to time zone names on the public web in Australia. (In 2001, the reverse was true.) * Eastern time is more commonly referred to with abbreviations beginning with "A". (In 2001, the preference was to omit the "A".) * Central and western time are the reverse: their abbreviations typically omit the "A" (just as they did in 2001). The margin of difference for all the above is often striking, but is sometimes relatively small. If we were not constrained by our existing practice and were to pick the abbreviations most commonly used today, this survey (flawed as it is) suggests that they would be: AEST AEDT CST CDT WST WDT There is no rush to switch the tz database, and it would be odd to use what seem to be the currently-most-popular abbreviations, as they're inconsistent with each other. One possibility is to wait a few years and see whether the rest of Australia adopts the eastern practice of leading "A". Here are details about the searches that I used. Altavista search count results: 1,480 "Eastern Summer Time" AND domain:au 148 "Australian Eastern Summer Time" AND domain:au 9,840 "Eastern Daylight Time" AND domain:au 3,620 "Australian Eastern Daylight Time" AND domain:au 20 "Central Summer Time" AND domain:au 7 "Australian Central Summer Time" AND domain:au 5,420 "Central Daylight Time" AND domain:au 49 "Australian Central Daylight Time" AND domain:au 4 "Western Summer Time" AND domain:au 0 "Australian Western Summer Time" AND domain:au 21 "Western Daylight Time" AND domain:au 9 "Australian Western Daylight Time" AND domain:au 711,000 "EST" and domain:au 132,000 "EDT" and domain:au 2,390,000 "AEST" and domain:au 247,000 "AEDT" and domain:au 127,000 "CST" and domain:au 18,700 "CDT" and domain:au 13,600 "ACST" and domain:au 6,770 "ACDT" and domain:au 73,300 "WST" and domain:au 29,900 "WDT" and domain:au 16,700 "AWST" and domain:au 2,570 "AWDT" and domain:au Google search count results: 17,500 "Eastern Summer Time" site:.au 5,990 "Australian Eastern Summer Time" site:.au 22,500 "Eastern Daylight Time" site:.au 41,700 "Australian Eastern Daylight Time" site:.au [The previous two numbers are contradictory, but that's what Google reported!] 7,210 "Central Summer Time" site:.au 96 "Australian Central Summer Time" site:.au 33,700 "Central Daylight Time" site:.au 596 "Australian Central Daylight Time" site:.au 83 "Western Summer Time" site:.au 5 "Australian Western Summer Time" site:.au 2,150 "Western Daylight Time" site:.au 380 "Australian Western Daylight Time" site:.au 19,200,000 "EST" site:.au 1,840,000 "EDT" site:.au 22,700,000 "AEST" site:.au 4,430,000 "AEDT" site:.au 699,000 "CST" site:.au 173,000 "CDT" site:.au 249,000 "ACST" site:.au 163,000 "ACDT" site:.au 852,000 "WST" site:.au 27,300 "WDT" site:.au 277,000 "AWST" site:.au 11,900 "AWDT" site:.au All searches done from the Los Angeles area, on 2012-10-20 at about 16:00 UTC, with Javascript enabled and cookies disabled.
Very useful. Unfortunately, its likely that many Australian websites are now just reflecting the abbreviations that come in from the tz database itself introducing more errors, if the tz database is in error. On 2012-10-20 13:30, Paul Eggert wrote:
On 10/20/2012 04:57 AM, Edwin Groothuis wrote:
What is stopping the TZ project from using the unambiguous abbreviations As I understand it, it's a combination of several things. Australians themselves do not agree on what abbreviations to use. When in doubt, it's better to leave things alone. Finally, ambiguity is not a problem that we're trying to solve; although it's nicer to be unambiguous, we have ambiguity elsewhere and the ambiguity here doesn't make the problem that much worse.
All that being said, I just now redid the searches that I did back in 2001, with similar flaws as before, and found the following changes since then:
* The phrase "Daylight Time" is now more popular than "Summer Time" when referring to time zone names on the public web in Australia. (In 2001, the reverse was true.)
* Eastern time is more commonly referred to with abbreviations beginning with "A". (In 2001, the preference was to omit the "A".)
* Central and western time are the reverse: their abbreviations typically omit the "A" (just as they did in 2001).
The margin of difference for all the above is often striking, but is sometimes relatively small.
If we were not constrained by our existing practice and were to pick the abbreviations most commonly used today, this survey (flawed as it is) suggests that they would be:
AEST AEDT CST CDT WST WDT
There is no rush to switch the tz database, and it would be odd to use what seem to be the currently-most-popular abbreviations, as they're inconsistent with each other. One possibility is to wait a few years and see whether the rest of Australia adopts the eastern practice of leading "A".
Here are details about the searches that I used.
Altavista search count results:
1,480 "Eastern Summer Time" AND domain:au 148 "Australian Eastern Summer Time" AND domain:au 9,840 "Eastern Daylight Time" AND domain:au 3,620 "Australian Eastern Daylight Time" AND domain:au
20 "Central Summer Time" AND domain:au 7 "Australian Central Summer Time" AND domain:au 5,420 "Central Daylight Time" AND domain:au 49 "Australian Central Daylight Time" AND domain:au
4 "Western Summer Time" AND domain:au 0 "Australian Western Summer Time" AND domain:au 21 "Western Daylight Time" AND domain:au 9 "Australian Western Daylight Time" AND domain:au
711,000 "EST" and domain:au 132,000 "EDT" and domain:au 2,390,000 "AEST" and domain:au 247,000 "AEDT" and domain:au
127,000 "CST" and domain:au 18,700 "CDT" and domain:au 13,600 "ACST" and domain:au 6,770 "ACDT" and domain:au
73,300 "WST" and domain:au 29,900 "WDT" and domain:au 16,700 "AWST" and domain:au 2,570 "AWDT" and domain:au
Google search count results:
17,500 "Eastern Summer Time" site:.au 5,990 "Australian Eastern Summer Time" site:.au 22,500 "Eastern Daylight Time" site:.au 41,700 "Australian Eastern Daylight Time" site:.au [The previous two numbers are contradictory, but that's what Google reported!]
7,210 "Central Summer Time" site:.au 96 "Australian Central Summer Time" site:.au 33,700 "Central Daylight Time" site:.au 596 "Australian Central Daylight Time" site:.au
83 "Western Summer Time" site:.au 5 "Australian Western Summer Time" site:.au 2,150 "Western Daylight Time" site:.au 380 "Australian Western Daylight Time" site:.au
19,200,000 "EST" site:.au 1,840,000 "EDT" site:.au 22,700,000 "AEST" site:.au 4,430,000 "AEDT" site:.au
699,000 "CST" site:.au 173,000 "CDT" site:.au 249,000 "ACST" site:.au 163,000 "ACDT" site:.au
852,000 "WST" site:.au 27,300 "WDT" site:.au 277,000 "AWST" site:.au 11,900 "AWDT" site:.au
All searches done from the Los Angeles area, on 2012-10-20 at about 16:00 UTC, with Javascript enabled and cookies disabled.
--
gah, I keep messing up this reply vs reply to list thing. On 10/20/2012 1:30 PM, Paul Eggert wrote:
The margin of difference for all the above is often striking, but is sometimes relatively small.
If we were not constrained by our existing practice and were to pick the abbreviations most commonly used today, this survey (flawed as it is) suggests that they would be:
AEST AEDT CST CDT WST WDT
Are there any sites that specifically endorse the practice of using *ST to refer to "Summer Time" [not the same thing as the presumably common practice of, as in America, using *ST to refer to the whole timezone regardless of daylight saving status] If not, it might make sense to at least do _that_ to eliminate one half of the ambiguity, by going with EST/EDT, where the same time with the same abbreviation in the same timezone setting appears twice an hour apart. Hang on, does tzcode even do anything meaningful with the timezone abbreviation? Actually, it looks like tzcode doesn't have a strptime or getdate implementation at all. Maybe that's something that should be added.
On 10/20/2012 01:04 PM, Random832 wrote:
Are there any sites that specifically endorse the practice of using *ST to refer to "Summer Time"
There are some, yes. There are even some that use *DT to designate "Summer Time" (not "Daylight Time"). You can see examples of these, and of some other practices, at <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2009-January/015378.html>.
tzcode doesn't have a strptime or getdate implementation at all.
Parsing dates is hard, unfortunately. Neither strptime nor getdate is satisfactory. And they're somewhat outside tz's scope.
On 21/10/12 04:30 , Paul Eggert wrote: I took the liberty of doing these tests too:
19,200,000 "EST" site:.au 22,700,000 "AEST" site:.au
So I checked the pages returned for EST. It wasn't until page 42 that the first reference of EST with regarding to the timezone was there. And the second one at page 53. While going through this list, I've learned a lot of different meaning for word "EST", in all its possible variations in spell capitalization. And the last page, 71 in my case, has 5 of the 10 links related to non-timezone related usage of the string EST. On the other hand, because of the uniqueness of the string "AEST" (i.e. the four letters aren't used anywhere except where to indicate the timezone), you have 22,700,00 real hits, while you have 19,200,000 hits on a word which usage highly varies. Edwin
at the risk of pouring more gas on a fire i don't even care about... fwiw, here's what Android has for the Australia/ zones, courtesy of CLDR via icu4c: Australia/ACT: AEST/AEDT Australia/Adelaide: ACST/ACDT Australia/Brisbane: AEST/AEST Australia/Broken_Hill: ACST/ACDT Australia/Canberra: AEST/AEDT Australia/Currie: AEST/AEDT Australia/Darwin: ACST/ACST Australia/Eucla: ACWST/ACWST Australia/Hobart: AEST/AEDT Australia/LHI: LHST/LHDT Australia/Lindeman: AEST/AEST Australia/Lord_Howe: LHST/LHDT Australia/Melbourne: AEST/AEDT Australia/NSW: AEST/AEDT Australia/North: ACST/ACST Australia/Perth: AWST/AWST Australia/Queensland: AEST/AEST Australia/South: ACST/ACDT Australia/Sydney: AEST/AEDT Australia/Tasmania: AEST/AEDT Australia/Victoria: AEST/AEDT Australia/West: AWST/AWST Australia/Yancowinna: ACST/ACDT // as produced by the following code, run by AOSP's host dalvikvm on Ubunutu, using tzdata2012g and icu4c 4.8. import java.util.*; public class Tz { public static void main(String[] args) { for (String id : TimeZone.getAvailableIDs()) { if (!id.startsWith("Australia/")) continue; TimeZone tz = TimeZone.getTimeZone(id); System.out.println(id + ": " + tz.getDisplayName(false, TimeZone.SHORT, Locale.US) + "/" + tz.getDisplayName(true, TimeZone.SHORT, Locale.US)); } } } on Android, i ignore the abbreviations that come with tzdata and get them from icu4c, since i (a) need localized variants (Europe/Berlin, for example, is useful in a variety of European languages, not just German), and (b) need long display names (such as "Australian Central Standard Time") which i have to get from icu4c anyway. i think the only thing tzdata has over CLDR here is that last i looked, CLDR didn't have the historical names (though it does for currencies). why am i apparently being a dick and not providing a simple diff of CLDR versus tzdata so we can all see what other zones (if any) there are differences in? because icu4c makes it awkward for me to get abbreviations for "non-local" zones. for example, in en_US, i get: Europe/Moscow: GMT+03:00/GMT+03:00 though i do get "Moscow Standard Time" as the long name. i haven't checked, but it might be that icu4c does offer me an abbreviation here, but i refuse to use it because it's already been taken. i jump through some number of hoops to maximize the number of abbreviations i support -- mainly for those poor souls stuck trying to parse dates because some incompetent is squirting ambiguous "human readable" dates between computers -- but i refuse to output an abbreviation that i couldn't unambiguously parse back. i'm not sure how useful my round-trip guarantee is in practice, but it seemed like a good way to limit the insanity. so, yeah, i support far fewer abbreviations [in en_US] than tzdata does [in en_US], but i make up for it in every other locale :-) On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 4:25 AM, Edwin Groothuis <edwin@mavetju.org> wrote:
On 21/10/12 04:30 , Paul Eggert wrote:
I took the liberty of doing these tests too:
19,200,000 "EST" site:.au 22,700,000 "AEST" site:.au
So I checked the pages returned for EST. It wasn't until page 42 that the first reference of EST with regarding to the timezone was there. And the second one at page 53.
While going through this list, I've learned a lot of different meaning for word "EST", in all its possible variations in spell capitalization. And the last page, 71 in my case, has 5 of the 10 links related to non-timezone related usage of the string EST.
On the other hand, because of the uniqueness of the string "AEST" (i.e. the four letters aren't used anywhere except where to indicate the timezone), you have 22,700,00 real hits, while you have 19,200,000 hits on a word which usage highly varies.
Edwin
-- Elliott Hughes - http://who/enh - http://jessies.org/~enh/ NIO, JNI, or bionic questions? Mail me/drop by/add me as a reviewer.
On 10/21/2012 02:39 PM, enh wrote:
at the risk of pouring more gas on a fire i don't even care about... fwiw, here's what Android has for the Australia/ zones, courtesy of CLDR via icu4c: I believe CLDR actually localizes the australian timezones to have the A internationally and not in en-AU. Of course, there is a legitimate argument that tzdata should have international abbreviations and leave localized ones to CLDR.
Actually... it's not clear to me why localization of abbreviations, metazones, and any idea of timezone _names_ at all (i.e. the string "Eastern Standard Time") is outside the scope of tzcode/tzdata. Other than the fact that these days it would be redundant with CLDR, though an implementation in tzcode to actually print the localized abbreviations and names would still be useful.
On 10/21/2012 05:46 PM, Random832 wrote:
I believe CLDR actually localizes the australian timezones to have the A internationally and not in en-AU. I just checked and this is incorrect. I should have checked before sending the message, sorry.
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:56:39 +1100 From: Edwin Groothuis <edwin.groothuis@riverbed.com> Message-ID: <50829177.2080901@riverbed.com> | Consider that there are current issues with the way that the Australian | timezones are handled in the TZ data because of its ambiguousness (if | such a word exist) with other timezones in the world. We know they're ambiguous. They always have been. There never is, nor ever has been, any attempt to avoid that. In fact, the only reason we have the things at all is because the ancient (US centric) API demanded them to be present. | What is stopping the TZ project from using the unambiguous abbreviations | so that the people who use the TZ database in Australia or on Australian | services don't run into these basic problems anymore? It sends the wrong message - suggests that it is rational to use the abbreviations for some purppose or other, when it isn't. These things should be (when required) displayed to users, and otherwise ignored, code that does otherwise is broken. Hiding the bugs (a little) by making the abbreviations a little less ambiguous, so the code breaks less often, is 100% the wrong thing to do, rather when we have the option (which is not all that often) we should deliberately use ambiguous abbreviations to make erroneous code fail more often, so it can get fixed sooner. Attempting to paper around this issue, by altering some abbreviations so they're not ambiguous is just the same basic approach as the computer manufacturers who "avoided the problems" with code that referenced *0 by making sure there was valid memory at address 0 that processes could access, and putting a null byte there, so *0 and "" even had the same apparent value - as they happened to have on PDP-11's (running unix). Doing that seemed to avoid problems with lots of broken programs, but overall it did a big disservice to the community everywhere, and allowed more & more broken programs to be deployed, rather than assisting getting the problems fixed. Only when we got more systems that refused to go that route, and cause programs containing references to *0 to break did code authors actually get the message and begin to fix those bugs. kre
What is stopping the TZ project from using the unambiguous abbreviations so that the people who use the TZ database in Australia or on Australian services don't run into these basic problems anymore?
One minor consideration: unambiguous time zone abbreviations can have the appearance of US-centricism if we use AEST for Australia but continue with EST (rather than UEST or USEST or something else) for the United States. ("Why does the United States get the short abbreviations?") The appearance is avoided if there's a clear mandate for use of, say, AEST. --ado
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 07:19:07 -0400 From: Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAJvZEYk+iZ-W99K=AEt7hH9Nv2NPjFPaRfDGbwW6EEwO2bN4cQ@mail.gmail.com> | continue with EST (rather than UEST or USEST or something else) The obvious name, if we were to insist on qualifying zone abbreviations wth references to location, would be "American Eastern Standard Time" (etc) - abbreviated as AEST... After all it applies in both Canada and the US, so USEST would require a CEST for what is essentially the same thing, and doesn't it also apply in parts of Latin America? So, AEST for Australia and AEST for the US/Canada etc. Or we just leave well enough alone, and leave things as they are. kre
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Robert Elz <kre@munnari.oz.au> wrote:
The obvious name, if we were to insist on qualifying zone abbreviations wth references to location, would be "American Eastern Standard Time" (etc) - abbreviated as AEST... After all it applies in both Canada and the US, so USEST would require a CEST for what is essentially the same thing, and doesn't it also apply in parts of Latin America? So, AEST for Australia and AEST for the US/Canada etc.
Not complete enough! What about using the ISO-3166 2-letter abbrev (the ISO codes are already in the distribution, iso3166.tab )? So: - USEST - CAEST - AUEST - etc This should be unambiguous enough, I think. This could be extended, for historical contexts, with ISO-8601: - VECST-20110612 (Venezuala Time, as changed on 12 June 2011) - VECST-20120801 (etc) and so on.
Or we just leave well enough alone, and leave things as they are.
Oh. Well, if you are going to take the sensible approach ... I think the issue is simple: "While taking no position on the advisability and necessity of unique or user-friendly timezone abbreviations, this is not in the mandate of Mr Olson's group". -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:40:13 +1000 From: Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CALBLQPbo5VKihgS15gRQk_wm9eR1HrUvqKwSBTT3+1T4qP7WVQ@mail.gmail.com> | After taking some time off from this issue, Why not just drop it - it keeps being argued, wasting everyone's time, and nothing changes, because ... | I honestly believe that the only argument for the status quo on this | issue is that it's been this way for a long time. No, it is the way it is because what's there is correct. | I've considered the next logical step to be contacting the relevant | government departments in charge of the timezone legislation in each state. That's fine but please don't ask them loaded questions, no "is XXX the correct abbreviation?" - instead ask questions with no hint of what you think the answer should be "What is the correct name for the timezone in Queensland? (And its abbreviation)" You could also ask them for a reference to the legislation or regulation that specifies it. | and what is presented by the federal government on this page What the federal government think affacts only the ACT (where they just copy NSW all the time anyway, for obvious reasons) and perhaps NT (could be NT, but these days they probably allow the NT legislature to make the decision, such as it is there). | http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time That web page is (obviously) aimed at foreigners. Australians don't consult the web to find out what the time is ... When talking about things for outsiders, it is natural to call things "Australian xxx" (whether it is beaches, schools, or timezones). A web site aimed at foreign tourists might very well give details about Australian beaches, or Australian roads, or even Australian time - but inside Australia you're very unlikely to consider that you're driving on this Australian road to get to some Australian beach (at some Australian time). | Hopefully, with responses from the relevant state departments, this | issue can be resolved and put to bed. The issue has been put to bed many times over the years. It was that way until yesterday. There is no need (and no advantage) in dredging it all up again. What's there matches the relevant state legislation (at least those easily available to be checked in the early days, if any states are actually different, they could be fixed). kre
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Robert Elz <kre@munnari.oz.au> wrote:
| http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
That web page is (obviously) aimed at foreigners. Australians don't consult the web to find out what the time is ... When talking about things for outsiders, it is natural to call things "Australian xxx" (whether it is beaches, schools, or timezones). A web site aimed at foreign tourists might very well give details about Australian beaches, or Australian roads, or even Australian time - but inside Australia you're very unlikely to consider that you're driving on this Australian road to get to some Australian beach (at some Australian time).
Thank you. or in the "modern" way: +1 -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 http://www.linkedin.com/in/ghane
participants (15)
-
Alan Barrett -
Arthur David Olson -
David Grosz -
David Patte ₯ -
Edwin Groothuis -
Edwin Groothuis -
enh -
Guy Harris -
Mark Tearle -
Paul Eggert -
Paul_Koning@Dell.com -
Random832 -
Robert Elz -
Sanjeev Gupta -
Shaun Bouckaert