Re: [tz] Wikipedia - blocking time zone contributors - massive insertion of errors by AlanM1 - win-win if people cooperate
I apologize to the list. I'll try to keep this brief, and I will _not_ engage in a flame war. I have no desire to work with someone who, I've now learned, just cannot be worked with. Constructive comments from others are welcome. At 2012-06-05 17:31, Tobias Conradi wrote:
In Wikipedia several accounts that added Olson/IANA time zone information have been blocked and marked as sock puppets of Tobias Conradi. Since User:Tobias Conradi did not edit since years, because a handful of people once decided to block him, the only evidence for "sock puppeting" is given as "behavioral".
Behavioral for the User:TimeOfChange is to edit time articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/TimeOfChange No single talk page edit or anything else.
Lately User Royaume du Maroc got blocked, who created: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Florida
Are you denying that you are "Royaume du Maroc" (RdM)? I've known about you for less than a month and it's clear to me that you are he. Give us a break and seek help. Seemingly coincidentally, I did some work on WP at the same time as RdM because I realized there were issues after first reporting to this list about a minor one. He seems fixated on the order in which things happened. I certainly don't care. Take all the credit you want. I simply want to get things right, and you can no longer do that, given that your past actions have you banned indefinitely.
BUT NOW THE REAL PROBLEM. AlanM1 is deleting IANA time zone from Wikipedia e.g. Shiprock, South_Pole, Longyearbyen, Ljubljana http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_tz_database_time_zones&dif...
I've spent a bunch of time on this in the last couple of days. I worked with the 2010e release on which the WP data was supposed to be based, and found numerous inconsistencies. Today, I decided that, versus correcting those, I might as well just use the latest data available - 2012c. The list on that page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones) is now consistent with what comes out of the Perl DateTime::TimeZone package, based on the 2012c release, merged with the zone.tab file from the same release (to get the coordinates and comments, which are not part of the perl package). This is also consistent with the 7 continent files. I still have to explore the relatively small list of diffs (including those you mentioned) to see why they were there before and not now. I suspect they are links. Note that the whole thing is a work in progress. I hardly had time to go get a burger after finishing hours of work on this before your drivel hit the list.
and at the same time introducing | [[ISO_3166-1:|ISO_3166-1:]] | | [[PST8PDT]]
into a list that claims to be based on a zone.tab listing. PST8PDT is not in the current zone.tab file.
No, it doesn't claim to be based on the zone.tab file. It's based on the 7 continent files.
Also the minus signs are changed into hyphen minuses, so that UTC offset articles which use the minus sign are now reached via redirects.
OMG, the sky is falling! The way I read WP:MOS, I've used the correct character. The fact that the individual UTC* articles (which you created) use a different character doesn't change that at all. I will, however, investigate. What does this nitpicky bit of WP style have to do with the TZ mailing list? Is it really the right tone to take?
Furthermore the order of the elements in that list is not more the same as in zone.tab, and the first column that allowed sorting in that order got removed by AlanM1.
Why is that order important? They are in order of the TZ identifier, which is the primary key of the database, and the logical order one would expect a list in, instead of the arbitrary and seemingly purposeless and undocumented number that was there.
Maybe some readers here with an account on Wikipedia can revert the introduced errors and explain to AlanM1 what the errors are.
You have yet to report anything that would be considered an error, and certainly not in a tone that would make anyone want to continue working with you (or at all).
E.g. due to South_Pole removal in the data templates, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Antarctica there is now "[[ISO 3166-1:IANA time zone id not in Template:Tz/country code|IANA time zone id not in Template:Tz/country code]]"
As I said, work in progress. Fixing any broken links is next.
Also due to not using the data templates at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones Wikipedia is now open to inconsistency between this list and data display in other places. Before the change the list showed to a wide extend the data contained in the templates, so people could easily check for correctness.
I did use those templates, and the data in the individual column templates are now all in sync. The problem is that I was unable to save the template-using version of the "List of tz database time zones" article, apparently because of the resulting complexity of all those template transclusions. If you had read the change log, or given me time to document it on the talk page, you would have seen my note about that: "(Update to 2012c, data added directly to article because of performance problems when templated. This may be a temporary problem - will try again later.)" You never saw this problem because you didn't use the templates for the last 140 or so rows. I spent quite a lot of time on it, trying to reduce the number of transclusions and ultimately gave up, hoping that the problem was temporary. I'll note that your last version of the page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_tz_database_time_zones&old...) takes almost a _minute_ to appear, while my current version of it (with the data in the page instead of transcluded) takes about 3 seconds.
If the data in the templates is well maintained then it could be used in the infoboxes on the city pages, then thousands of articles could display information offset information obtain from IANA.
It is. It was just the "List of tz database time zones" that is unable to use them (for the moment).
I think this is the biggest issue with Conradi. I believe he has made 'some' valuable comments and contributions over the last month (some - but not all), but his attitude has turned the majority of this list against him whether he has any points that have any merit or not. Mr. Conradi, if you so dearly want to 'fix bugs' in the db, as much as we all do, I would suggest you learn how to present your suggestions as just that - suggestions - and with humility. Maybe its an issue you have with translation, or perhaps something else, but your presentation has turned most people off providing you any futrther support for your ideas. You would have gotten a lot further by granting those that have been on this list as contributors or maintainers some respect; and I assure you that if you had done that that you might have gained more consideration for your 'suggestions'. If you have a suggestion for the database, please state it as a suggestion, and back up your suggestion with documentation - and stop accusing others of not doing their part. That would help us all. On 2012-06-05 21:34, Alan Mintz wrote:
You have yet to report anything that would be considered an error, and certainly not in a tone that would make anyone want to continue working with you (or at all).
--
On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 3:34 AM, Alan Mintz <Alan_Mintz+TZ_IANA@earthlink.net> wrote:
At 2012-06-05 17:31, Tobias Conradi wrote:
Seemingly coincidentally, I did some work on WP at the same time as RdM because I realized there were issues after first reporting to this list about a minor one. He seems fixated on the order in which things happened. I certainly don't care. No evidence for that. But you made false claims about actions by RdM and I thought it would be fair if you would correct it.
... I simply want to get things right, Fine.
and you can no longer do that, Wrong. I too want to get things right, that's why I emailed.
given that your past actions have you banned indefinitely. I didn't ban me :-)
BUT NOW THE REAL PROBLEM. AlanM1 is deleting IANA time zone from Wikipedia e.g. Shiprock, South_Pole, Longyearbyen, Ljubljana
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_tz_database_time_zones&dif...
I've spent a bunch of time on this in the last couple of days. I worked with the 2010e release on which the WP data was supposed to be based, and found numerous inconsistencies. Today, I decided that, versus correcting those, I might as well just use the latest data available - 2012c. Great! I would have done the same! Thanks a lot.
The list on that page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones) is now consistent with what comes out of the Perl DateTime::TimeZone package, based on the 2012c release, merged with the zone.tab file from the same release (to get the coordinates and comments, which are not part of the perl package). This is also consistent with the 7 continent files. But the page stated it shows the data from zone.tab. And where is Ljubljana and the South_Pole?
To get things right be suspicious about extra steps and go closer to the source which is the zone.tab itself.
I still have to explore the relatively small list of diffs (including those you mentioned) to see why they were there before and not now. I suspect they are links. Note that the whole thing is a work in progress. I hardly had time to go get a burger after finishing hours of work on this before your drivel hit the list. Maybe don't publish broken stuff on the world's most read encyclopedia before your drivel hits the burger.
and at the same time introducing | [[ISO_3166-1:|ISO_3166-1:]] | | [[PST8PDT]]
into a list that claims to be based on a zone.tab listing. PST8PDT is not in the current zone.tab file.
No, it doesn't claim to be based on the zone.tab file. One claim changed by AlanM1 on 00:22 to refer to the tar. The other still is "The four columns in the file zone.tab are mapped into columns 1–4 (marked with *) in the table below."
It's based on the 7 continent files. No claim in WP that the data comes from the continent files.
Also the minus signs are changed into hyphen minuses, so that UTC offset articles which use the minus sign are now reached via redirects.
OMG, the sky is falling! The way I read WP:MOS, I've used the correct character. The fact that the individual UTC* articles (which you created) In July 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UTC%E2%88%9201:00&oldid=19471381) and this is supported by ISO 8601.
use a different character doesn't change that at all. I will, however, investigate. Fine!
What does this nitpicky bit of WP style have to do with the TZ mailing list? Is it really the right tone to take?
I think the IANA time zone database and Wikipedia can benefit from most proper presentation of information.
Furthermore the order of the elements in that list is not more the same as in zone.tab, and the first column that allowed sorting in that order got removed by AlanM1.
Why is that order important?
Because it is the one in the source file named zone.tab.
They are in order of the TZ identifier, which is the primary key of the database, and the logical order one would expect a list in, Maybe the one called Alan Mintz. Other ones not.
instead of the arbitrary I think Paul and Ado didn't design it completely arbitrary.
and seemingly purposeless purpose was mentioned: "the first column that allowed sorting in that order "
and undocumented number that was there.
And it was AlanM1 who removed the zone.tab comment from the list page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_tz_database_time_zones&dif... # The table is sorted first by country, then an order within the country that # (1) makes some geographical sense, and # (2) puts the most populous zones first, where that does not contradict (1).
Maybe some readers here with an account on Wikipedia can revert the introduced errors and explain to AlanM1 what the errors are.
You have yet to report anything that would be considered an error, Do you consider Ljubljana removal not to be an error?
and certainly not in a tone that would make anyone want to continue working with you (or at all). I think people that are interested in correct data presentation and trustworthy statements more than in tone will still like to work with me.
E.g. due to South_Pole removal in the data templates, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Antarctica there is now "[[ISO 3166-1:IANA time zone id not in Template:Tz/country code|IANA time zone id not in Template:Tz/country code]]"
As I said, work in progress. Fixing any broken links is next. Great.
Also due to not using the data templates at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones Wikipedia is now open to inconsistency between this list and data display in other places. Before the change the list showed to a wide extend the data contained in the templates, so people could easily check for correctness.
I did use those templates, and the data in the individual column templates are now all in sync. The problem is that I was unable to save the template-using version of the "List of tz database time zones" article, apparently because of the resulting complexity of all those template transclusions. If you had read the change log, or given me time to document it on the talk page, you would have seen my note about that:
"(Update to 2012c, data added directly to article because of performance problems when templated. This may be a temporary problem - will try again later.)"
You never saw this problem because you didn't use the templates for the last 140 or so rows. I spent quite a lot of time on it, trying to reduce the number of transclusions and ultimately gave up, hoping that the problem was temporary. Maybe MediaWiki has a limit on calls per page. So data cannot be maintained in one place. Thanks for telling.
I'll note that your last version of the page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_tz_database_time_zones&old...) takes almost a _minute_ to appear, while my current version of it (with the data in the page instead of transcluded) takes about 3 seconds. I have never seen that page taking so long, but now see that loading takes a lot of time. Maybe you can document that in the talk and in the source.
If the data in the templates is well maintained then it could be used in the infoboxes on the city pages, then thousands of articles could display information offset information obtain from IANA.
It is. Ljubljana!
And thanks again for your work in Wikipedia with respect to time-related articles. -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/
participants (3)
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Alan Mintz -
David Patte -
Tobias Conradi