*Off topic* A little respect ...
On Sun Jun 23 08:57:16 UTC 2019 Sergij Marchenko makars at gmail.com wrote:
You write very beautifully, but the fact remains that once the Russians occupy the Crimea, you immediately made changes, pleasing Putin ...
Yes, I suppose that might have pleased Putin (if he ever became aware of it if only by the fact that his cellular telephone showed the correct local time) but ... it wasn't done to please or displease him or his cronies (and the fifth columnists 'phones are right, too.) It was, as has been explained, to reflect the technical "reality on the ground". I'm sorry if that displeased you but it is what it is. Being obstreperous isn't going to change anything (except by further expanding the misery). Making us out to be tools of injustice doesn't make it so. Note that the *country codes* that came into question have been patched reasonably expeditiously by Dr. Eggert. TZ will reflect reality as best it can under the circumstances with or without anyone's complete satisfaction. I *am* certain that no one is happy about all the death, destruction and heart wrenching circumstances from what has come to pass. My thoughts and prayers are with all the people who find themselves in such unfortunate conditions. Were it only within my power to change them....
On Jun 23, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Chris Woodbury via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
... It was, as has been explained, to reflect the technical "reality on the ground". I'm sorry if that displeased you but it is what it is. Being obstreperous isn't going to change anything (except by further expanding the misery). Making us out to be tools of injustice doesn't make it so.
Note that the *country codes* that came into question have been patched reasonably expeditiously by Dr. Eggert. TZ will reflect reality as best it can under the circumstances with or without anyone's complete satisfaction.
I wonder if it would be helpful to discuss this more explicitly in the THEORY file. For example: --- The goal of the TZ database is to reflect "reality on the ground" in each region. It makes no judgment about the legal or diplomatic status of any administration in any region. TZ rules may be marked with the name of a place, and any other place that uses the same rule at a given point in time may then also refer to that rule by this name. Such a marking has nothing to do with any political question. --- This might make it a bit more explicit that the questions just raised are out of scope, and allows them to be dismissed with a reference to a written policy. We already do this for zone names. Not that it stops the issue from being brought up over and over, but at least it offers a quick way to answer them. paul
On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 17:19, <Paul.Koning@dell.com> wrote:
I wonder if it would be helpful to discuss this more explicitly in the THEORY file.
I would support such an endeavor and I think much of your proposed language is good. However, I think that while "reflect[ing] 'reality on the ground'" does succinctly capture the essence of what we're trying to accomplish into a single phrase, it perhaps still comes off as a bit too trite, especially for the uninitiated, and therefore warrants a modest elaboration to help support its meaning. Specifically, we are interested in how *groups of people* use their notion of local/civil/jurisdictional time to coordinate and organize. For example, if the viewpoint of people in Region X, loyal to Authority A, is that they are being occupied by Authority B, but everyone in Region X regardless of allegiance references their local time in terms of the same authority, then only that authority matters for the purposes of the timekeeping portions of tz, and the "reality" of civil timekeeping there is the sole reason behind that decision. On the contrary, it should be clear that there are certainly situations in which it can, and indeed does, make sense to have tz reflect multiple overlapping and differing viewpoints in its timekeeping data — that is, *if and only if* those viewpoints differ on civil timekeeping practice in the region in question. (See Asia/Urumqi, c.f. Asia/Shanghai for a current example.) Some distillation of that (perhaps the first sentence) should be enough. I should hope we can safely avoid mentioning that we cannot and should not aim to document the *ad hoc* practices of any possible group of two or more humans, or that a plurality of a region following a given authority doesn't necessarily mean that that is the only authority that matters. The line must be somewhere in the middle, and must be evaluated (likely case-by-case) based on factual evidence of actual usage. -- Tim Parenti
Paul.Koning@dell.com wrote:
I wonder if it would be helpful to discuss this more explicitly in the THEORY file. For example:
--- The goal of the TZ database is to reflect "reality on the ground" in each region. It makes no judgment about the legal or diplomatic status of any administration in any region.
TZ rules may be marked with the name of a place, and any other place that uses the same rule at a given point in time may then also refer to that rule by this name. Such a marking has nothing to do with any political question. ---
This might make it a bit more explicit that the questions just raised are out of scope, and allows them to be dismissed with a reference to a written policy. We already do this for zone names. Not that it stops the issue from being brought up over and over, but at least it offers a quick way to answer them.
This sounds like a good idea, in my opinion. I also understand the basic facts, i.e. that the human readable zone names are only used as a kind of index/identifier, and the names to be displayed come from a different source. Anyway, this kind of discussion comes up over and over indicating that folks may not be aware of this fact. Some time ago I joined a conference where one of the talks highlighted the possible cultural effects of technical decisions, e.g. in organizations that claim to be international, but are dominated by U.S. citizens, and representatives from countries that are not U.S.-friendly may vote against proposals just because they were made by "the U.S.". Cases like this may enforce this behavior, IMO, and I think that's a pity. Eventually this would be considered differently if a part of the U.S. would have been occupied by some other country, and a foreign index name appeared in the DB for a region that was still considered as belonging to the U.S. I'd like to make clear that of course, personally I'm not against the U.S. and I can live with these region names. I'd just like to bring this aspect/view to your attention. There are actually so many cases where the work of may years of successful collaboration is damaged just because it's not possible to integrate the point of view of different folks, so eventually the TZDB project could slowly move into a direction where cases like this can be taken into account. Martin
What is the time zone here? This is not interesting to anyone. The question is, to which country belongs the territory occupied by Putin Huilo. -- Best regards, Sergij Marchenko mailto:makars@gmail.com http://makar.homelinux.net Skype: makarsoft Viber/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +380661877234 Sent by Redmi Note 5 пн, 24 черв. 2019, 23:04 користувач Chris Woodbury via tz <tz@iana.org> пише:
On Sun Jun 23 08:57:16 UTC 2019 Sergij Marchenko makars at gmail.com wrote:
You write very beautifully, but the fact remains that once the Russians occupy the Crimea, you immediately made changes, pleasing Putin ...
Yes, I suppose that might have pleased Putin (if he ever became aware of it if only by the fact that his cellular telephone showed the correct local time) but ... it wasn't done to please or displease him or his cronies (and the fifth columnists 'phones are right, too.)
It was, as has been explained, to reflect the technical "reality on the ground". I'm sorry if that displeased you but it is what it is. Being obstreperous isn't going to change anything (except by further expanding the misery). Making us out to be tools of injustice doesn't make it so.
Note that the *country codes* that came into question have been patched reasonably expeditiously by Dr. Eggert. TZ will reflect reality as best it can under the circumstances with or without anyone's complete satisfaction.
I *am* certain that no one is happy about all the death, destruction and heart wrenching circumstances from what has come to pass. My thoughts and prayers are with all the people who find themselves in such unfortunate conditions. Were it only within my power to change them....
https://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_RU-RC.aspx https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ukraine/sevastopol Just sending what i have found ... Not taking any personal political position. On 6/25/2019 10:34 AM, Sergij Marchenko wrote:
What is the time zone here? This is not interesting to anyone. The question is, to which country belongs the territory occupied by Putin Huilo.
--
Best regards, Sergij Marchenko
mailto:makars@gmail.com <mailto:makars@gmail.com> http://makar.homelinux.net Skype: makarsoft Viber/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +380661877234
Sent by Redmi Note 5
пн, 24 черв. 2019, 23:04 користувач Chris Woodbury via tz <tz@iana.org <mailto:tz@iana.org>> пише:
> On Sun Jun 23 08:57:16 UTC 2019 Sergij Marchenko makars at gmail.com <http://gmail.com> wrote: > > You write very beautifully, but the fact remains that once the Russians > occupy the Crimea, you immediately made changes, pleasing Putin ...
Yes, I suppose that might have pleased Putin (if he ever became aware of it if only by the fact that his cellular telephone showed the correct local time) but ... it wasn't done to please or displease him or his cronies (and the fifth columnists 'phones are right, too.)
It was, as has been explained, to reflect the technical "reality on the ground". I'm sorry if that displeased you but it is what it is. Being obstreperous isn't going to change anything (except by further expanding the misery). Making us out to be tools of injustice doesn't make it so.
Note that the *country codes* that came into question have been patched reasonably expeditiously by Dr. Eggert. TZ will reflect reality as best it can under the circumstances with or without anyone's complete satisfaction.
I *am* certain that no one is happy about all the death, destruction and heart wrenching circumstances from what has come to pass. My thoughts and prayers are with all the people who find themselves in such unfortunate conditions. Were it only within my power to change them....
participants (6)
-
Chris Woodbury -
Leandro Laurenti -
Martin Burnicki -
Paul.Koning＠dell.com -
Sergij Marchenko -
Tim Parenti