"time zone" vs "timezone" in documentation
[I am cc'ing this to the tz mailing list (and changing the subject line) to give tz readers a heads-up about the terminology issue. The question here is: should tzdb man pages say "time zone" or "timezone"? For context please see Michael Kerrisk's email <https://marc.info/?m=152964652828320>, which says:
When I inherited the project, the pages used a mixture of "time zone" and "timezone", with the former predominant. I nevertheless standardized on the latter, and although I don't recall for sure, I suspect it was because that is the spelling used in POSIX. (As an aside, there's an argument that--because POSIX--tzdb might want to consider switching spellings.) I'm not religious about the particular choice (although I have naturally now got used to the particular choice I made some years ago), but I did make that choice because I want consistency within the project, and I'm reluctant to introduce inconsistency.
and my response <https://marc.info/?m=152964676331902>, which says:
I deferred to POSIX for "timestamp" versus "time stamp", but "timezone" is a bridge too far for me.
] On second thought, perhaps I was too hasty. We could distinguish "time zone" in the usual English-language sense (a set of geographic locations that currently share the same standard time offset from UTC) from "timezone" in the POSIX sense (a history and predicted future of UTC offsets, abbreviations and isdst flags). If so, the tzdb documentation could be more careful about using "time zone" for the former and "timezone" for the latter, and this would make for fewer changes to the GNU/Linux man-pages for tzdb. I can look into this and propose an updated set of tzdb-related patches accordingly. If I were designing the terminology from scratch, I wouldn't specify two nearly-identical phrases "time zone" and "timezone" to mean such different things. However, the phrases do have the advantage of existing practice (common English usage and POSIX, respectively).
On 22/06/18 17:18, Paul Eggert wrote:
If I were designing the terminology from scratch, I wouldn't specify two nearly-identical phrases "time zone" and "timezone" to mean such different things. However, the phrases do have the advantage of existing practice (common English usage and POSIX, respectively).
tzdist specified that the 'time zone' format would be used throughout but there are places with the space is problematic and needs replacing in some way ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
On 6/22/18 13:30, Lester Caine wrote:
On 22/06/18 17:18, Paul Eggert wrote:
If I were designing the terminology from scratch, I wouldn't specify two nearly-identical phrases "time zone" and "timezone" to mean such different things. However, the phrases do have the advantage of existing practice (common English usage and POSIX, respectively).
tzdist specified that the 'time zone' format would be used throughout but there are places with the space is problematic and needs replacing in some way ...
As I recall - after a long discussion.
On 6/22/18 13:30, Lester Caine wrote:
On 22/06/18 17:18, Paul Eggert wrote:
If I were designing the terminology from scratch, I wouldn't specify two nearly-identical phrases "time zone" and "timezone" to mean such different things. However, the phrases do have the advantage of existing practice (common English usage and POSIX, respectively).
tzdist specified that the 'time zone' format would be used throughout but there are places with the space is problematic and needs replacing in some way ...
And if you want another one how about the inconsistent use in class names: TimeZone for java - implies space before Z timezone in python - wouldn't it be time_zone if a space was implied? That aside - most documentation and names seem to assume 2 words rather than 1. Even google offers you Did you mean: */time zone/* <https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=time+zone+classes&spell=1...>
On 2018-06-22 18:18:36 (+0200), Paul Eggert wrote:
[I am cc'ing this to the tz mailing list (and changing the subject line) to give tz readers a heads-up about the terminology issue. The question here is: should tzdb man pages say "time zone" or "timezone"?
For context please see Michael Kerrisk's email <https://marc.info/?m=152964652828320>, which says:
When I inherited the project, the pages used a mixture of "time zone" and "timezone", with the former predominant. I nevertheless standardized on the latter, and although I don't recall for sure, I suspect it was because that is the spelling used in POSIX. (As an aside, there's an argument that--because POSIX--tzdb might want to consider switching spellings.) I'm not religious about the particular choice (although I have naturally now got used to the particular choice I made some years ago), but I did make that choice because I want consistency within the project, and I'm reluctant to introduce inconsistency.
and my response <https://marc.info/?m=152964676331902>, which says:
I deferred to POSIX for "timestamp" versus "time stamp", but "timezone" is a bridge too far for me.
]
On second thought, perhaps I was too hasty. We could distinguish "time zone" in the usual English-language sense (a set of geographic locations that currently share the same standard time offset from UTC) from "timezone" in the POSIX sense (a history and predicted future of UTC offsets, abbreviations and isdst flags). If so, the tzdb documentation could be more careful about using "time zone" for the former and "timezone" for the latter, and this would make for fewer changes to the GNU/Linux man-pages for tzdb. I can look into this and propose an updated set of tzdb-related patches accordingly.
This sounds like a good idea. Consistency is important.
If I were designing the terminology from scratch, I wouldn't specify two nearly-identical phrases "time zone" and "timezone" to mean such different things. However, the phrases do have the advantage of existing practice (common English usage and POSIX, respectively).
Clearly, POSIX and English are different languages. :) (I feel sharp stabbing sensations in my eyes every time I encounter a timestamp or a timezone (or a filesystem, for that matter)). Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Ministry of Information
Working out when an expression formed out of two words has turned into a new word is always something of a black art - yet it happens all the time. Consider cutthroat or bullshit - clearly words these days, but not always. Or more relevantly perhaps, timecard, timepiece or timetable. Whether timezone, timestamp, or filesystem have reached that state yet or not isn't clear - personally, I think they have (and without any wishy washy "a timezone is a technical thing in tzdb and time zone is an area with a common offset from UTC (for some period)". It is also worth noting that the way the transition happens, is for people to simply start writing (and saying, though I think that's definitely already happened for the cases in question) the word pair as a single word and ignoring the "that's not correct" criticism. In my early schooldays (another one) I was taught that the digit '0' was definitely not 'Oh' (that's a letter) and nor was it "zero" (that's American invented nonsense) but a "nought". I can't even imagine the last time I heard anyone use that though (decades ago). The language is continually changing, and we all need to keep up, and not persist in "I was taught..." kre
On 06/22/2018 11:52 AM, Robert Elz wrote:
Whether timezone, timestamp, or filesystem have reached that state yet or not isn't clear - personally, I think they have
Yes, I also think they're words in reasonably common use. The question is whether they're the preferred spelling, and whether their connotations differ from those of the corresponding two-word phrases. In my Google-based survey, I found that "timestamp" and "time stamp" are within shouting distance in the New York Times (about 164 vs 295 hits overall). In contrast, the Times almost invariably uses "time zone": I found thousands of instances of "time zone" but just one instance of "timezone" (other than in proper names or blogs) and it was originally printed "time-" at the end of one line and "zone changes" at the start of the next, so it was possibly the old-fashioned "time-zone" or a disambiguating hyphen placed between the nouns "time" and "zone", before the noun "changes" (for the full context, see <https://www.nytimes.com/1975/11/06/archives/science-seeks-to-end-the-miserie...> and look for the scanned image). Of course this is just one newspaper, but it's a major one and it's clear that the New York Time style frowns on "timezone" whereas it permits either "timestamp" or "time stamp". I expect that similar results would be found in other reliable sources. Overall, my impression is that "time zone" is by far the common spelling for the common notion of the regions that you see on maps, whereas "timezone" is primarily used in computer-related material, where its interpretation is often the one I'm suggesting.
Robert Elz said:
Working out when an expression formed out of two words has turned into a new word is always something of a black art - yet it happens all the time.
The OED has "time zone" and, in citations, "time-zone", but not "timezone". It's under "time", which was last updated in March 2012. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
On 2018-06-22 12:52, Robert Elz wrote:
Working out when an expression formed out of two words has turned into a new word is always something of a black art - yet it happens all the time.
Consider cutthroat or bullshit - clearly words these days, but not always. Or more relevantly perhaps, timecard, timepiece or timetable.
Whether timezone, timestamp, or filesystem have reached that state yet or not isn't clear - personally, I think they have (and without any wishy washy "a timezone is a technical thing in tzdb and time zone is an area with a common offset from UTC (for some period)".
It is also worth noting that the way the transition happens, is for people to simply start writing (and saying, though I think that's definitely already happened for the cases in question) the word pair as a single word and ignoring the "that's not correct" criticism.
Regardless of any trends in particular English dialects, international projects (and mailing lists) should try to stick to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_English in a more formal register and avoid cultural jargon from dialects, using two words where the term could be translated, and eliminating the separation where translation should not be applied.
In my early schooldays (another one) I was taught that the digit '0' was definitely not 'Oh' (that's a letter) and nor was it "zero" (that's American invented nonsense) but a "nought". I can't even imagine the last time I heard anyone use that though (decades ago). The language is continually changing, and we all need to keep up, and not persist in "I was taught..."
English sports broadcasts still use "nil" for scores, and I have heard the occasional anachronistic "nought"; the cricket term "duck" also seems old, and I cring at the American jargon neologism "bagel", which is not even in the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_the_number_0_in_English -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
English sports broadcasts still use "nil" for scores, and I have heard the occasional anachronistic "nought"; the cricket term "duck" also seems old, and I cring at the American jargon neologism "bagel"
Also "love" in tennis. "Bagel" reminded me that PostgreSQL has the synonym "allballs" for midnight, which apparently came from NASA JPL: https://www.quora.com/PostgreSQL-What-is-the-origin-of-allballs?share=1 Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ West Forties, Cromarty, Forth, Tyne, Dogger: Variable 3 or 4, occasionally northeasterly 5 at first in Cromarty and Forth. Slight. Fog patches developing. Moderate or good, occasionally very poor.
Paul Eggert wrote:
We could distinguish "time zone" in the usual English-language sense (a set of geographic locations that currently share the same standard time offset from UTC) from "timezone" in the POSIX sense (a history and predicted future of UTC offsets, abbreviations and isdst flags). If so, the tzdb documentation could be more careful about using "time zone" for the former and "timezone" for the latter, and this would make for fewer changes to the GNU/Linux man-pages for tzdb. I can look into this and propose an updated set of tzdb-related patches accordingly.
I've done that, plus a few other minor fixups, and have installed the attached proposed patches into the development tzdb repository on GitHub. I plan to follow up by emailing to linux-man a corresponding set of patches to the GNU/Linux man pages.
Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> hat am 27. Juni 2018 um 21:46 geschrieben:
Paul Eggert wrote:
We could distinguish "time zone" in the usual English-language sense (a set of geographic locations that currently share the same standard time offset from
UTC) from "timezone" in the POSIX sense (a history and predicted future of UTC offsets, abbreviations and isdst flags). If so, the tzdb documentation could be more careful about using "time zone" for the former and "timezone" for the latter, and this would make for fewer changes to the GNU/Linux man-pages for
tzdb. I can look into this and propose an updated set of tzdb-related patches accordingly.
I've done that, plus a few other minor fixups, and have installed the attached
proposed patches into the development tzdb repository on GitHub. I plan to follow up by emailing to linux-man a corresponding set of patches to the GNU/Linux man pages.
I would suggest adding a glossary with "timezone" and "time zone". In a few years everyone will have forgotten about this and everyone is confused why this was done. re, wh
participants (9)
-
Brian Inglis -
Clive D.W. Feather -
Lester Caine -
Michael Douglass -
Paul Eggert -
Philip Paeps -
Robert Elz -
Tony Finch -
Walter Harms