Australian Time Zone Abbreviations Discussion Review
I started a discussion on this mailing list in November 2011 in regards to the incorrect time zone abbreviations used for Australian time zones. Initially there were several responses, the majority of which were positive to change, and yet the conversation seems to have died off. Recently published on this list was the IETF RFC 6557 "Procedures for Maintaining the Time Zone Database". The relevant section of that document to this discussion, Section 3 "Making Updates to the TZ Database" specifies at the bottom "To be clear, the TZ Coordinator SHALL NOT set time zone policy for a region but use judgement and whatever available sources exist to assess what the average person on street would think the time actually is, or in case of historical corrections, was." Also, point 3.3 states "Changes to existing entries SHALL reflect the consensus on the ground in the region covered by that entry." There were several people involved in the discussion that took place: Myself (Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com>) Edwin Groothuis <edwin@mavetju.org> Eric Ulevik <eulevik@gmail.com> Elliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> Greg Black <gjb@yaxom.com> I reside in Australia, however I am not aware of the nationality or residency of any of the other contributors. I will summarise my points then attempt to do so with the points made by others. It is not my intention to mislead and if my summaries of their contributions are inaccurate then I hope they will correct me. Their contributions to the original discussion are available to view. I originally started the discussion after finding the Australian Federal Government had a web page of information regarding time zones in Australia. This can be accessed at http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time This lists the timezones as Australian Eastern Standard Time: UTC +10 hours abbreviated as AEST Australian Central Standard Time: UTC +9 ½ hours abbreviated as ACST Australian Western Standard Time: UTC +8 hours abbreviated as AWST Where daylight savings is concerned, NSW, ACT, Victoria and Tasmania move from AEST to Australian Eastern Daylight Time UTC +11 hours abbreviated as AEDT SA and Broken Hill in NSW move from ACST to Australian Central Daylight Time UTC +10 ½ hours abbreviated as ACDT After this initial posting Edwin replied with his support. Eric then replied stating that Time Zones are legislated at the state level, not the federal level, seeming to imply that only state law should matter. Considering the RFC specifically states that the time zone policy should be based on available sources to assess what the average person on the street would think, and the fact that state legislation doesn't specify an abbreviation, there's no reason that this federal government information, which accurately reflects what everyone I have discussed this matter with understands to be true, should be discounted. This was reenforced by Edwin who pointed out two ways forward, stay where we are based on the absence of any specification of abbreviations in state legislation and continue bickering on this issue or move forward with the clearly defined federal information that fixes ambiguity that exists on an international level with the existing abbreviations and hopefully stop the bickering. Elliot then put forward two points, the first in line with the now existing guidelines in regards to what people on the street think, and the second point being to taking caution to possible side effects that could be caused by changing this. He points out that we could be going from ambiguous labels to something that is also ambiguous, but is there a way of finding out if the AEST, ACST, etc. are ambiguous in any way? Considering the significance of EST and CST to North America, it certainly seems more significant to reduce the ambiguity there. Edwin then found several Australian organisations and reviewed what they use. Broadcasters: The ABC (National Broadcaster): AEST SBS: AEST Channel 10: Mostly AEST, some instances of EST News Organisations: Sydney Morning Herald: EST The Australian: AEST The Daily Telegraph: Both EST and AEST Government Organisations: The Australian Bureau of Meteorology: Uses both, but specifies using AEST in their submission guidelines. Appended to this list I can add the Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads, which I found is using AEST in their website Terms of Service. I also pointed out at the time that many instances of the use of EST could easily be due to the current state of the TZ database and would likely be corrected to AEST (or other where appropriate) with the update to the TZ database. It was also pointed out that Australians would on large understand the use of the A prefixed abbreviations due to their widespread use, especially by major broadcasters and news media. Greg Black added that he received three emails from different Australian organisations that used ADST for a timezone that he would personally label AEDT. I do not see this being an argument against the change, but indeed an argument for. There is existing confusion, some of it due to the incorrect labels in the TZ database. The fact that the federal government has presented a source for this change means that there's significant grounds for using it as a correct version or standard. Of the 5 people mailing the list during this discussion, the most significant contributions were made by myself and Edwin, both of us in support of the change to the A prefix, which also seemed to be supported by Greg Black who said he would personally label the timezone that the ADST label had referred to as AEDT. I could find no arguments put forward that demonstrated any advantage of the current system over the proposed alternative besides maintaining the status quo. I respect the caution put towards unintended side effects, but where these are due to corrections on what is arguably wrong information, isn't it better to fix it sooner rather than later? Shaun Bouckaert
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 18:10, Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com> wrote:
I started a discussion on this mailing list in November 2011 in regards to the incorrect time zone abbreviations used for Australian time zones. Initially there were several responses, the majority of which were positive to change, and yet the conversation seems to have died off.
It died off because we have done it many times over the years and have never found a sustainable reason to make changes. The reference above to "the incorrect time zone abbreviations" is an example of the problem. They are not incorrect. At worst they are disputed or silly. There is no authoritative source for claiming that any abbreviation is "correct".
Recently published on this list was the IETF RFC 6557 "Procedures for Maintaining the Time Zone Database". The relevant section of that document to this discussion, Section 3 "Making Updates to the TZ Database" specifies at the bottom "To be clear, the TZ Coordinator SHALL NOT set time zone policy for a region but use judgement and whatever available sources exist to assess what the average person on street would think the time actually is, or in case of historical corrections, was." Also, point 3.3 states "Changes to existing entries SHALL reflect the consensus on the ground in the region covered by that entry."
The problem is right there. We have been unable to show that there is any real consensus.
There were several people involved in the discussion that took place:
Myself (Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com>) Edwin Groothuis <edwin@mavetju.org> Eric Ulevik <eulevik@gmail.com> Elliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> Greg Black <gjb@yaxom.com>
I reside in Australia, however I am not aware of the nationality or residency of any of the other contributors.
I doubt if it matters, but I am Australian by birth and have lived in Australia for almost 60 years.
I will summarise my points then attempt to do so with the points made by others. It is not my intention to mislead and if my summaries of their contributions are inaccurate then I hope they will correct me. Their contributions to the original discussion are available to view.
I originally started the discussion after finding the Australian Federal Government had a web page of information regarding time zones in Australia. This can be accessed at http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Even here, there is an error in the reference to the Australian Federal Government. That's a description, not a name. The name is the Australian Government. Getting the details right is harder than it looks.
This lists the timezones as
Australian Eastern Standard Time: UTC +10 hours abbreviated as AEST Australian Central Standard Time: UTC +9 ½ hours abbreviated as ACST Australian Western Standard Time: UTC +8 hours abbreviated as AWST
Where daylight savings is concerned, NSW, ACT, Victoria and Tasmania move from AEST to Australian Eastern Daylight Time UTC +11 hours abbreviated as AEDT SA and Broken Hill in NSW move from ACST to Australian Central Daylight Time UTC +10 ½ hours abbreviated as ACDT
After this initial posting Edwin replied with his support. Eric then replied stating that Time Zones are legislated at the state level, not the federal level, seeming to imply that only state law should matter. Considering the RFC specifically states that the time zone policy should be based on available sources to assess what the average person on the street would think, and the fact that state legislation doesn't specify an abbreviation, there's no reason that this federal government information, which accurately reflects what everyone I have discussed this matter with understands to be true, should be discounted. This was reenforced by Edwin who pointed out two ways forward, stay where we are based on the absence of any specification of abbreviations in state legislation and continue bickering on this issue or move forward with the clearly defined federal information that fixes ambiguity that exists on an international level with the existing abbreviations and hopefully stop the bickering.
Elliot then put forward two points, the first in line with the now existing guidelines in regards to what people on the street think, and the second point being to taking caution to possible side effects that could be caused by changing this. He points out that we could be going from ambiguous labels to something that is also ambiguous, but is there a way of finding out if the AEST, ACST, etc. are ambiguous in any way? Considering the significance of EST and CST to North America, it certainly seems more significant to reduce the ambiguity there.
Edwin then found several Australian organisations and reviewed what they use.
Broadcasters: The ABC (National Broadcaster): AEST SBS: AEST Channel 10: Mostly AEST, some instances of EST
News Organisations: Sydney Morning Herald: EST The Australian: AEST The Daily Telegraph: Both EST and AEST
Government Organisations: The Australian Bureau of Meteorology: Uses both, but specifies using AEST in their submission guidelines.
Appended to this list I can add the Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads, which I found is using AEST in their website Terms of Service.
I also pointed out at the time that many instances of the use of EST could easily be due to the current state of the TZ database and would likely be corrected to AEST (or other where appropriate) with the update to the TZ database. It was also pointed out that Australians would on large understand the use of the A prefixed abbreviations due to their widespread use, especially by major broadcasters and news media.
Greg Black added that he received three emails from different Australian organisations that used ADST for a timezone that he would personally label AEDT. I do not see this being an argument against the change, but indeed an argument for. There is existing confusion, some of it due to the incorrect labels in the TZ database. The fact that the federal government has presented a source for this change means that there's significant grounds for using it as a correct version or standard.
My argument is that, despite people such as us having clear opinions about a sensible set of abbreviations, there is no consensus in the community. In the absence of legislative guidance, I claim that we have no reason -- according to the rules -- to make a change. Yes, I personally think we should use AEST and AEDT for the eastern states, but I don't see that we have a justification to make a change.
Of the 5 people mailing the list during this discussion, the most significant contributions were made by myself and Edwin, both of us in support of the change to the A prefix, which also seemed to be supported by Greg Black who said he would personally label the timezone that the ADST label had referred to as AEDT.
No, I did not support a change. I still don't. If I was 40 years younger, I might try to push for legislative change. But I'm not and I won't.
I could find no arguments put forward that demonstrated any advantage of the current system over the proposed alternative besides maintaining the status quo. I respect the caution put towards unintended side effects, but where these are due to corrections on what is arguably wrong information, isn't it better to fix it sooner rather than later?
It's not wrong. It's just silly. And yes, I'd go so far as to say that it's very silly. But we have no mandate to fix all the silly things.
Shaun Bouckaert
Greg
On 5 March 2012 19:43, Greg Black <gjb@yaxom.com> wrote:
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 18:10, Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com> wrote:
I started a discussion on this mailing list in November 2011 in regards to the incorrect time zone abbreviations used for Australian time zones. Initially there were several responses, the majority of which were positive to change, and yet the conversation seems to have died off.
It died off because we have done it many times over the years and have never found a sustainable reason to make changes. The reference above to "the incorrect time zone abbreviations" is an example of the problem. They are not incorrect. At worst they are disputed or silly. There is no authoritative source for claiming that any abbreviation is "correct".
If there's no authoritative source, then looking for a consensus among Australian organisations seems to be the next best thing. Considering the Australian Government, The ABC, SBS, The Australian, The Bureau of Meteorology, and even a State department are all using AEST, at least by guidelines in the case of BoM then there seems to be a majority usage among major players.
Recently published on this list was the IETF RFC 6557 "Procedures for Maintaining the Time Zone Database". The relevant section of that document to this discussion, Section 3 "Making Updates to the TZ Database" specifies at the bottom "To be clear, the TZ Coordinator SHALL NOT set time zone policy for a region but use judgement and whatever available sources exist to assess what the average person on street would think the time actually is, or in case of historical corrections, was." Also, point 3.3 states "Changes to existing entries SHALL reflect the consensus on the ground in the region covered by that entry."
The problem is right there. We have been unable to show that there is any real consensus.
Considering the status quo does present ambiguity problems and, according to at least the Federal Government (which represents the states in most international matters) is wrong, there is reason to change it. Going with what is most widely accepted as correct seems to be the best course of action.
There were several people involved in the discussion that took place:
Myself (Shaun Bouckaert <shaun.bouckaert@gmail.com>) Edwin Groothuis <edwin@mavetju.org> Eric Ulevik <eulevik@gmail.com> Elliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> Greg Black <gjb@yaxom.com>
I reside in Australia, however I am not aware of the nationality or residency of any of the other contributors.
I doubt if it matters, but I am Australian by birth and have lived in Australia for almost 60 years.
I will summarise my points then attempt to do so with the points made by others. It is not my intention to mislead and if my summaries of their contributions are inaccurate then I hope they will correct me. Their contributions to the original discussion are available to view.
I originally started the discussion after finding the Australian Federal Government had a web page of information regarding time zones in Australia. This can be accessed at http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time
Even here, there is an error in the reference to the Australian Federal Government. That's a description, not a name. The name is the Australian Government. Getting the details right is harder than it looks.
That's nitpicking. One could also say that the term "Australian Government" could be a description of any of the Governments of Australia, state or federal, and therefor referring specifically to the "Australian Federal Government" removes any ambiguity, especially in a discussion where the distinction seems to be important. Calling them the Australian Federal Government is certainly not wrong, and leaves no ambiguity.
This lists the timezones as
Australian Eastern Standard Time: UTC +10 hours abbreviated as AEST Australian Central Standard Time: UTC +9 ½ hours abbreviated as ACST Australian Western Standard Time: UTC +8 hours abbreviated as AWST
Where daylight savings is concerned, NSW, ACT, Victoria and Tasmania move from AEST to Australian Eastern Daylight Time UTC +11 hours abbreviated as AEDT SA and Broken Hill in NSW move from ACST to Australian Central Daylight Time UTC +10 ½ hours abbreviated as ACDT
After this initial posting Edwin replied with his support. Eric then replied stating that Time Zones are legislated at the state level, not the federal level, seeming to imply that only state law should matter. Considering the RFC specifically states that the time zone policy should be based on available sources to assess what the average person on the street would think, and the fact that state legislation doesn't specify an abbreviation, there's no reason that this federal government information, which accurately reflects what everyone I have discussed this matter with understands to be true, should be discounted. This was reenforced by Edwin who pointed out two ways forward, stay where we are based on the absence of any specification of abbreviations in state legislation and continue bickering on this issue or move forward with the clearly defined federal information that fixes ambiguity that exists on an international level with the existing abbreviations and hopefully stop the bickering.
Elliot then put forward two points, the first in line with the now existing guidelines in regards to what people on the street think, and the second point being to taking caution to possible side effects that could be caused by changing this. He points out that we could be going from ambiguous labels to something that is also ambiguous, but is there a way of finding out if the AEST, ACST, etc. are ambiguous in any way? Considering the significance of EST and CST to North America, it certainly seems more significant to reduce the ambiguity there.
Edwin then found several Australian organisations and reviewed what they use.
Broadcasters: The ABC (National Broadcaster): AEST SBS: AEST Channel 10: Mostly AEST, some instances of EST
News Organisations: Sydney Morning Herald: EST The Australian: AEST The Daily Telegraph: Both EST and AEST
Government Organisations: The Australian Bureau of Meteorology: Uses both, but specifies using AEST in their submission guidelines.
Appended to this list I can add the Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads, which I found is using AEST in their website Terms of Service.
I also pointed out at the time that many instances of the use of EST could easily be due to the current state of the TZ database and would likely be corrected to AEST (or other where appropriate) with the update to the TZ database. It was also pointed out that Australians would on large understand the use of the A prefixed abbreviations due to their widespread use, especially by major broadcasters and news media.
Greg Black added that he received three emails from different Australian organisations that used ADST for a timezone that he would personally label AEDT. I do not see this being an argument against the change, but indeed an argument for. There is existing confusion, some of it due to the incorrect labels in the TZ database. The fact that the federal government has presented a source for this change means that there's significant grounds for using it as a correct version or standard.
My argument is that, despite people such as us having clear opinions about a sensible set of abbreviations, there is no consensus in the community. In the absence of legislative guidance, I claim that we have no reason -- according to the rules -- to make a change. Yes, I personally think we should use AEST and AEDT for the eastern states, but I don't see that we have a justification to make a change.
When the vast majority of significant sources are using the AXXX abbreviations the fact that this isn't matched by the database presents a problem, that is the reason for making a change.
Of the 5 people mailing the list during this discussion, the most significant contributions were made by myself and Edwin, both of us in support of the change to the A prefix, which also seemed to be supported by Greg Black who said he would personally label the timezone that the ADST label had referred to as AEDT.
No, I did not support a change. I still don't. If I was 40 years younger, I might try to push for legislative change. But I'm not and I won't.
According to the RFC managing change on this database, there is no requirement for there to be legislative support for a change. The change should be based on available resources to best determine what the consensus is. Considering that even you agree the better form matches that that is described by the Federal Government you form part of the consensus of those that agree the AXXX abbreviations are correct at least, even if you don't support the change. You say you're not willing to push for legislative change, but considering legislative change is not necessary, I can't see why you feel this change should be blocked. Just to clarify, your argument against the change is that you believe there is no consensus, despite significant agreement among major organisations? Shaun
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012, Shaun Bouckaert wrote:
I started a discussion on this mailing list in November 2011 in regards to the incorrect time zone abbreviations used for Australian time zones. Initially there were several responses, the majority of which were positive to change, and yet the conversation seems to have died off.
As far as I have been able to make out from earlier rounds of this discussion, people, news organisations, and government sites in Australia use both sets of abbreviations (with and without the "A" prefix), and even "official" sources disagree. Therefore, there seemed to be no basis for labelling one set of abbreviations as "incorrect", or even for concluding that one set was better than the other. Therefore, it seemed best to remain with the status quo. The situation may have changed now, but if so, I suggest that that you try to present an unbiased analysis of which abbreviations receive the greater use on the ground, instead of starting off with an unqualified statement about the current abbreviations being "incorrect". --apb (Alan Barrett)
On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Alan Barrett <apb@cequrux.com> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012, Shaun Bouckaert wrote:
I started a discussion on this mailing list in November 2011 in regards to the incorrect time zone abbreviations used for Australian time zones. Initially there were several responses, the majority of which were positive to change, and yet the conversation seems to have died off.
I think the discussion is just stuck in a loop. Change requires consensus, but consensus is impossible because a major authority is this database, which will not be changed without consensus. Of course the current abbreviations get used; they are what the computers spit out at us every day.
As far as I have been able to make out from earlier rounds of this discussion, people, news organisations, and government sites in Australia use both sets of abbreviations (with and without the "A" prefix), and even "official" sources disagree. Therefore, there seemed to be no basis for labelling one set of abbreviations as "incorrect", or even for concluding that one set was better than the other. Therefore, it seemed best to remain with the status quo.
The situation may have changed now, but if so, I suggest that that you try to present an unbiased analysis of which abbreviations receive the greater use on the ground, instead of starting off with an unqualified statement about the current abbreviations being "incorrect".
Shaun's summary documents several authoritative sources all using the standard documented best at http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/our-country/time with a mixed level of consistency, and one regional newspaper that is not. These cited authorities have all discovered the need to resolve the ambiguity in the Australian timezone abbreviations. In particular, states do not always make DST transitions at the same time so 'EST/EST' is useless to national newspapers, broadcasters or anyone needing to specify a point in time consistently across states. I do believe this represents consensus of interested parties and believe if we add more citations from cross border sources that consensus will remain. (Australian, but offshore 6 years and counting). -- Stuart Bishop <stuart@stuartbishop.net> http://www.stuartbishop.net/
participants (4)
-
Alan Barrett -
Greg Black -
Shaun Bouckaert -
Stuart Bishop