Hi First of all, my apologies if I'm not doing the right thing by sending this suggestion to this email - I couldn't find a more relevant process in CONTRIBUTING for the amendment I suggest. I'd like to suggest to remove the following paragraph in europe file: # Anyway, none of the common English-language spellings (Kiev, Kyiv, Kieff, # Kijeff, Kijev, Kiyef, Kiyeff) do justice to the common pronunciation in # Ukrainian, namely [ˈkɪjiu̯] (IPA). This pronunciation has nothing like an # English "v" or "f", and instead trails off with what an English-speaker # would call a demure "oo" sound, and it would would be better anglicized as # "Kuiyu". Here's a sound file, if you would like to do as the Kuiyuvians do: # https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Uk-Київ.ogg Reasons for that: 1. I don't see how it's relevant 2. There are multiple major mistakes in it: a. there are no other common spellings of Kyiv other than Kyiv and Kiev. Searching the Internet for all other suggested spellings can easily confirm it; b. [ˈkɪjiu̯] is absolutely not a valid transcription; c. neither Ukrainian nor Russian standards would suggest to use f at the end of the written word, although when pronounced it may sound somewhat reminiscient of f (depending on pronunciation); d. I don't believe there is an English speaker who would pronounce "Kuiyu" similar to what it's actually pronounced in either Russian or Ukrainian; e. the linked sound file is of low quality and seems to either have a second half of the last letter cut off or just pronounced by someone very drunk. It's not pronounced with "u" at the end neither in Ukrainian nor in Russian, not even close. About me: born in Russia, lived for 30 years in Kyiv, 4+ years in Sydney, Australia. Have been working with English speakers from pretty much all around the world for 15+ years. Kind regards Leon
On 5/1/19 10:13 PM, Leon V wrote:
1. I don't see how it's relevant
True, and let's remove it. Proposed patch attached. That being said I'm still curious about the topic, so if you don't mind here are some more questions. (Perhaps we should take this off-list.)
a. there are no other common spellings of Kyiv other than Kyiv and Kiev.
I wrote that after looking at a lot of old English-language sources, which contained those other spellings. You're right that Kyiv and Kiev are the common spellings now.
b. [ˈkɪjiu̯] is absolutely not a valid transcription;
It's the only one I've found; do you have a better source than Wikipedia's IPA? The same pronunciation occurs even on the Ukrainian-language page for Kiev <https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%97%D0%B2>.
c. neither Ukrainian nor Russian standards would suggest to use f at the end of the written word, although when pronounced it may sound somewhat reminiscient of f (depending on pronunciation);
That text was about the spelling in English-language sources, which tend to stray somewhat from Ukrainian and/or Russian standards.
d. I don't believe there is an English speaker who would pronounce "Kuiyu" similar to what it's actually pronounced in either Russian or Ukrainian; e. the linked sound file is of low quality and seems to either have a second half of the last letter cut off or just pronounced by someone very drunk. It's not pronounced with "u" at the end neither in Ukrainian nor in Russian, not even close.
These last two points seem to be a bit iffy among native Ukrainian speakers. I found another source https://forvo.com/word/%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%97%D0%B2/#uk in which some speakers sounded more like "Kuiyu" (or perhaps "Kuiyo"?) than the "Keef" of other speakers; I am doing my best to give an English-style transliteration of the pronunciation without following any official standards. The Wikipedia page's pronunciation appears to be in the "Kuiyu" camp, whereas the pronunciation you mention is more in the "Keef" camp.
participants (2)
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Leon V -
Paul Eggert