New change in Mexico
Hello, Mexico is planning to change time zones again. Last month, the whole state of Chihuahua moved to UTC-6 without DST, causing a time change across the border with the US for part of the year. Now the northern municipalities want to have the same time zone as the respective neighboring cities in the US, for example Juárez in UTC-7 with DST, matching El Paso, and Ojinaga in UTC-6 with DST, matching Presidio. The congress of Chihuahua and the federal Chamber and Senate all approved the change, following the combined procedure specified in the new time zone law, and now it awaits the president's approval. The change should occur on the day after the official publication of the law, again on short notice.https://politica.expansion.mx/congreso/2022/11/24/aprueban-que-ayuntamientos... But there is another problem. The actual law that was passed says that Juárez and Ojinaga will observe UTC-7 and UTC-6 during the DST period, not outside of it. I think that this was an oversight as a result of trying to pass the law through all the chambers very quickly, but I can't believe that no one noticed it. There is a legislative procedure in Mexico called "fe de erratas" to correct obvious mistakes without having to pass the law again, but in this case the correction would have to alter multiple sections so I'm not sure if it will be possible. Either way, I expect confusion in the next days.http://gaceta.diputados.gob.mx/PDF/65/2022/nov/20221124-VII.pdf Regards,Dave
On 2022-11-27 12:06, Heitor David Pinto via tz wrote: Thank you for the heads-up and explanation about the situation. I'm attaching an incomplete TZDB patch that attempts to deal with this. It's incomplete because we don't know when Ciudad Juárez's clocks will change from -06 to -07, to agree with El Paso. When we find out, we can install the patch and release a new version as quickly as may be. It's of course unfortunate this is all being done on such short notice. The major change from the user viewpoint is a new Zone America/Ciudad_Juarez, split from America/Ojinaga. I haven't installed this patch in in the development repository, due to its incomplete nature.
Hi, Paul, Thank you for making the patch quickly. According to the news today, the president authorized the publication of the decree for November 29, so the time change would occur on November 30 at 0:00.http://puentelibre.mx/noticia/ciudad_juarez_cambio_horario_noviembre_2022/ The decree will appear here: https://www.dof.gob.mx/ Regards,Dave On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 02:43:25 PM EST, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote: Thank you for the heads-up and explanation about the situation. I'm attaching an incomplete TZDB patch that attempts to deal with this. It's incomplete because we don't know when Ciudad Juárez's clocks will change from -06 to -07, to agree with El Paso. When we find out, we can install the patch and release a new version as quickly as may be. It's of course unfortunate this is all being done on such short notice. The major change from the user viewpoint is a new Zone America/Ciudad_Juarez, split from America/Ojinaga. I haven't installed this patch in in the development repository, due to its incomplete nature.
On 2022-11-28 19:55, Heitor David Pinto via tz wrote:
Thank you for making the patch quickly. According to the news today, the president authorized the publication of the decree for November 29, so the time change would occur on November 30 at 0:00.http://puentelibre.mx/noticia/ciudad_juarez_cambio_horario_noviembre_2022/
Thanks for the transition time. I installed the attached patch into the TZDB development repository. It matches the patch I already circulated, except with a transition time of tomorrow at 00:00 local time and with updated commentary. Since the current TZDB release becomes wrong in about 13 hours, I'll prepare a new release shortly.
One thing that I noticed because of this change (which is now irrelevant because of the change) is that the former zone encompassing the parts of Chihuahua near the U.S. border was named `America/Ojinaga`, despite Ciudad Juárez being nearly 60 times larger by population (according to the numbers on Wikipedia) and in general being far more well-known. Obviously this is no longer relevant with the splitting of the two into separate zones, but I'm curious if anyone on this list knows why Ojinaga was chosen as the identifier. --mle On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 11:56, Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2022-11-28 19:55, Heitor David Pinto via tz wrote:
Thank you for making the patch quickly. According to the news today, the president authorized the publication of the decree for November 29, so the time change would occur on November 30 at 0:00.http://puentelibre.mx/noticia/ciudad_juarez_cambio_horario_noviembre_2022/
Thanks for the transition time. I installed the attached patch into the TZDB development repository. It matches the patch I already circulated, except with a transition time of tomorrow at 00:00 local time and with updated commentary.
Since the current TZDB release becomes wrong in about 13 hours, I'll prepare a new release shortly.
On 2022-11-29 10:14, Emily Crandall Fleischman wrote:
I'm curious if anyone on this list knows why Ojinaga was chosen as the identifier.
I think it was my lack of understanding of Mexican geography. When we added America/Ojinaga in 2010, its commentary was "Ciudad Juárez y Ojinaga en Chihuahua" and I expect I didn't recognize that as Ciudad Juárez. More recently Mexican announcements have used phrases like "Juárez, Ojinaga, Ascensión, Coyame del Sotol, Guadalupe, Janos, Manuel Benavides y Práxedis G. Guerrero" and again, I expect I didn't recognize that as including Ciudad Juárez as opposed to one of the plain Juárezes which also exist in Mexico. Although I also noticed this issue recently, I didn't bring it up on the mailing list for a correction as I was expecting us to need America/Ciudad_Juarez anyway for other reasons, which is what has happened with 2022g.
Does anyone know the geographical boundary between America/Ciudad_Juarez and America/Ojinaga? Is there some geographical feature like a river that demarcates the boundary between them? The law didn’t say anything about that; it just lists municipalities. Do these municipalities abut each other so we can use those boundaries? Thanks, Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
On 2022-11-29 10:14, Emily Crandall Fleischman wrote:
I'm curious if anyone on this list knows why Ojinaga was chosen as the identifier.
I think it was my lack of understanding of Mexican geography. When we added America/Ojinaga in 2010, its commentary was "Ciudad Juárez y Ojinaga en Chihuahua" and I expect I didn't recognize that as Ciudad Juárez. More recently Mexican announcements have used phrases like "Juárez, Ojinaga, Ascensión, Coyame del Sotol, Guadalupe, Janos, Manuel Benavides y Práxedis G. Guerrero" and again, I expect I didn't recognize that as including Ciudad Juárez as opposed to one of the plain Juárezes which also exist in Mexico.
Although I also noticed this issue recently, I didn't bring it up on the mailing list for a correction as I was expecting us to need America/Ciudad_Juarez anyway for other reasons, which is what has happened with 2022g.
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 17:39, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Does anyone know the geographical boundary between America/Ciudad_Juarez and America/Ojinaga? Is there some geographical feature like a river that demarcates the boundary between them? The law didn’t say anything about that; it just lists municipalities. Do these municipalities abut each other so we can use those boundaries?
Unfortunately, some of the specifically listed municipalities are actually quite distant from one another. Presuming this change might soon happen, I had surmised the following in https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2022-October/032144.html "Assuming an extension of the Texas' time zone boundary between Hudspeth and Presidio Counties, that would put such a dividing line near Lomas de Arena in Chihuahua." I'd imagine that's at least close enough to the intent here to suffice until it more clearly emerges what folks are actually observing locally. -- Tim Parenti
That’ll do. Thanks! Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 2:51 PM, Tim Parenti <tim@timtimeonline.com> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 17:39, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org <mailto:tz@iana.org>> wrote:
Does anyone know the geographical boundary between America/Ciudad_Juarez and America/Ojinaga? Is there some geographical feature like a river that demarcates the boundary between them? The law didn’t say anything about that; it just lists municipalities. Do these municipalities abut each other so we can use those boundaries?
Unfortunately, some of the specifically listed municipalities are actually quite distant from one another.
Presuming this change might soon happen, I had surmised the following in https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2022-October/032144.html "Assuming an extension of the Texas' time zone boundary between Hudspeth and Presidio Counties, that would put such a dividing line near Lomas de Arena in Chihuahua."
I'd imagine that's at least close enough to the intent here to suffice until it more clearly emerges what folks are actually observing locally.
-- Tim Parenti
The municipalities have well-defined boundaries, see this map: https://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/mapas/pdf/entidades/div_municipal/chihmpios.pd... As I mentioned earlier, the time change in Chihuahua is causing confusion due to the way that the decree was written. Literally, the decree puts Ojinaga in UTC-6 and Juárez in UTC-7 during the DST period, rather than outside that period as intended. A senator warned about the mistake in the text, but the legislature rushed to pass it without a correction. The senator then asked the president to return it for a correction, but it was published as originally written. Now the senator is introducing a bill to make the correction, while other legislators exchange accusations. In Juárez, the authorities plan to change the time on November 30 anyway.https://nortedigital.mx/diputados-se-equivocan-juarez-quedaria-desfasada-de-... https://www.radioformula.com.mx/economia/2022/11/29/nadie-sabe-la-hora-en-ch... https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/local/juarez/no-hay-marcha-atras-el-... https://chihuahua.gob.mx/prensa/anuncia-fideicomiso-de-puentes-fronterizos-d... Regards,Dave On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 05:54:48 PM EST, Deborah Goldsmith <goldsmit@apple.com> wrote: That’ll do. Thanks! Debbie On Nov 29, 2022, at 2:51 PM, Tim Parenti <tim@timtimeonline.com> wrote: On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 17:39, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote: Does anyone know the geographical boundary between America/Ciudad_Juarez and America/Ojinaga? Is there some geographical feature like a river that demarcates the boundary between them? The law didn’t say anything about that; it just lists municipalities. Do these municipalities abut each other so we can use those boundaries? Unfortunately, some of the specifically listed municipalities are actually quite distant from one another. Presuming this change might soon happen, I had surmised the following in https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2022-October/032144.html"Assuming an extension of the Texas' time zone boundary between Hudspeth and Presidio Counties, that would put such a dividing line near Lomas de Arena in Chihuahua." I'd imagine that's at least close enough to the intent here to suffice until it more clearly emerges what folks are actually observing locally. -- Tim Parenti
Thank you! The map come in very handy. Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 4:49 PM, Heitor David Pinto <hdave@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The municipalities have well-defined boundaries, see this map: https://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/mapas/pdf/entidades/div_municipal/chihmpios.pd...
As I mentioned earlier, the time change in Chihuahua is causing confusion due to the way that the decree was written. Literally, the decree puts Ojinaga in UTC-6 and Juárez in UTC-7 during the DST period, rather than outside that period as intended. A senator warned about the mistake in the text, but the legislature rushed to pass it without a correction. The senator then asked the president to return it for a correction, but it was published as originally written. Now the senator is introducing a bill to make the correction, while other legislators exchange accusations. In Juárez, the authorities plan to change the time on November 30 anyway. https://nortedigital.mx/diputados-se-equivocan-juarez-quedaria-desfasada-de-... https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/local/juarez/gustavo-madero-pide-que... https://www.radioformula.com.mx/economia/2022/11/29/nadie-sabe-la-hora-en-ch... https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/local/juarez/no-hay-marcha-atras-el-... https://chihuahua.gob.mx/prensa/anuncia-fideicomiso-de-puentes-fronterizos-d...
Regards, Dave
On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 05:54:48 PM EST, Deborah Goldsmith <goldsmit@apple.com> wrote:
That’ll do. Thanks!
Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 2:51 PM, Tim Parenti <tim@timtimeonline.com> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 17:39, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org <mailto:tz@iana.org>> wrote: Does anyone know the geographical boundary between America/Ciudad_Juarez and America/Ojinaga? Is there some geographical feature like a river that demarcates the boundary between them? The law didn’t say anything about that; it just lists municipalities. Do these municipalities abut each other so we can use those boundaries?
Unfortunately, some of the specifically listed municipalities are actually quite distant from one another.
Presuming this change might soon happen, I had surmised the following in https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2022-October/032144.html "Assuming an extension of the Texas' time zone boundary between Hudspeth and Presidio Counties, that would put such a dividing line near Lomas de Arena in Chihuahua."
I'd imagine that's at least close enough to the intent here to suffice until it more clearly emerges what folks are actually observing locally.
-- Tim Parenti
I meant, the map will come in very handy. I think it’s time to stop writing emails today. Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Thank you! The map come in very handy.
Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 4:49 PM, Heitor David Pinto <hdave@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The municipalities have well-defined boundaries, see this map: https://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/mapas/pdf/entidades/div_municipal/chihmpios.pd...
As I mentioned earlier, the time change in Chihuahua is causing confusion due to the way that the decree was written. Literally, the decree puts Ojinaga in UTC-6 and Juárez in UTC-7 during the DST period, rather than outside that period as intended. A senator warned about the mistake in the text, but the legislature rushed to pass it without a correction. The senator then asked the president to return it for a correction, but it was published as originally written. Now the senator is introducing a bill to make the correction, while other legislators exchange accusations. In Juárez, the authorities plan to change the time on November 30 anyway. https://nortedigital.mx/diputados-se-equivocan-juarez-quedaria-desfasada-de-... https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/local/juarez/gustavo-madero-pide-que... https://www.radioformula.com.mx/economia/2022/11/29/nadie-sabe-la-hora-en-ch... https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/local/juarez/no-hay-marcha-atras-el-... https://chihuahua.gob.mx/prensa/anuncia-fideicomiso-de-puentes-fronterizos-d...
Regards, Dave
On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 05:54:48 PM EST, Deborah Goldsmith <goldsmit@apple.com> wrote:
That’ll do. Thanks!
Debbie
On Nov 29, 2022, at 2:51 PM, Tim Parenti <tim@timtimeonline.com> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 17:39, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org <mailto:tz@iana.org>> wrote: Does anyone know the geographical boundary between America/Ciudad_Juarez and America/Ojinaga? Is there some geographical feature like a river that demarcates the boundary between them? The law didn’t say anything about that; it just lists municipalities. Do these municipalities abut each other so we can use those boundaries?
Unfortunately, some of the specifically listed municipalities are actually quite distant from one another.
Presuming this change might soon happen, I had surmised the following in https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2022-October/032144.html "Assuming an extension of the Texas' time zone boundary between Hudspeth and Presidio Counties, that would put such a dividing line near Lomas de Arena in Chihuahua."
I'd imagine that's at least close enough to the intent here to suffice until it more clearly emerges what folks are actually observing locally.
-- Tim Parenti
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 13:29, Paul Eggert via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
I expect I didn't recognize that as including Ciudad Juárez as opposed to one of the plain Juárezes which also exist in Mexico.
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 at 19:50, Heitor David Pinto <hdave@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
The municipalities have well-defined boundaries, see this map: https://cuentame.inegi.org.mx/mapas/pdf/entidades/div_municipal/chihmpios.pd...
Ah, that seems to be part of the issue — while the word "municipality" is often used to refer to an individual settlement in US English, a "municipio" in Mexico (and similar words in many other countries) is a second-level administrative division, which is more akin to, say, a county in much of the US or a civil parish in much of Britain. That is, these lists are not of individual settlements which are far apart (although they often share names with such), but rather of well-defined regions — administrative subdivisions of states — which, as Heitor points out, cover the entire border. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Mexico While "municipio" does, admittedly, seem to be best translated to English as "municipality", since the English word has many meanings, it's maybe best to be more faithful to the original Spanish use here for clarity. We've left "municipio" untranslated in nearby commentary for Mexico before, so I've applied the attached to the development repository to hopefully alleviate some further confusion for others who might come to these comments unaware of some of the details of Mexico's political subdivisions. While I don't necessarily expect many more one-off adjustments to the new arrangement in the immediate future, if that does come to pass, it might behoove us to further standardize our commentary for the various Mexican zones (in a similar manner as was done for the many Russian zones in 2014). Anyway, that puts the dividing line between the two resultant zones along the border between the municipio of Guadalupe to the northwest and the municipios of Coyame del Sotol and Ojinaga to the southeast …which meets the US border between Barrio Alto and Presidio de Pilares, about 15 km south-southeast of my (comparatively uninformed) guess, which I suppose wasn't all too bad for a ~900-km-long border. -- Tim Parenti
participants (5)
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Deborah Goldsmith -
Emily Crandall Fleischman -
Heitor David Pinto -
Paul Eggert -
Tim Parenti