Hi, I really appreciate the patch. I'm just not sure if the end date was kept on 3rd Sunday of February, 2019. How is it now? ________________________________ De: Andrew Paprocki <andrew@ishiboo.com> Enviado: quinta-feira, 4 de outubro de 2018 09:30 Para: flgoms@hotmail.com Cc: Time Zone Database discussion Assunto: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time Source: https://oglobo.globo.com/sociedade/educacao/a-pedido-do-mec-governo-adia-hor... "At the request of the MEC, the government postpones daylight saving time for November 18" "The hammer was struck yesterday by President Michel Temer in a meeting with the Minister of Mines and Energy, Moreira Franco. The presidential decree with daylight saving time will be published in the Official Gazette of the Union in the coming days." -Andrew On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 7:49 AM Fábio Gomes <flgoms@hotmail.com<mailto:flgoms@hotmail.com>> wrote: Hi, The brazilian president just announced a new change on this year DST. It was scheduled to start on November 4th and it was changed to November 18th. How long does it takes to update tzdata with this new information? We, IT professionals, are very upset with this change since most of us had already updated our files. And now we have a very shourt window to apply this new update. Thank you

Just found another article which (I think) has the end date: https://www.valor.com.br/brasil/5903337/governo-adia-horario-de-verao-para-1... Google translate: "DST will begin at midnight on November 18 and end on February 16, 2019." Debbie

On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU> wrote:

On 10/4/18 10:00 AM, Fábio Gomes wrote:

...

I'm just not sure if the end date was kept on 3rd Sunday of February, 2019. How is it now?

In tzdb we left the February 2019 transition as it was, which was indeed at 00:00 on February 16. Perhaps the presidential decree (whenever it's published) will change that transition too; if so, we'll need to update tzdb further.

I meant the end DATE will not change. I'm eagerly expecting the update on IANA's site now. 😊 ________________________________ De: tz <tz-bounces@iana.org> em nome de Fábio Gomes <flgoms@hotmail.com> Enviado: quinta-feira, 4 de outubro de 2018 16:03 Para: Deborah Goldsmith; Paul Eggert Cc: Time Zone Database discussion Assunto: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time Correct, Deborah. The end change will not change. BTW, do you know when the new tzdata.tar.gz would be available on IANA's site. ________________________________ De: goldsmit@apple.com <goldsmit@apple.com> em nome de Deborah Goldsmith <goldsmit@apple.com> Enviado: quinta-feira, 4 de outubro de 2018 15:40 Para: Paul Eggert Cc: Fábio Gomes; Andrew Paprocki; Time Zone Database discussion Assunto: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time Just found another article which (I think) has the end date: https://www.valor.com.br/brasil/5903337/governo-adia-horario-de-verao-para-1... Google translate: "DST will begin at midnight on November 18 and end on February 16, 2019." Debbie

On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Paul Eggert <eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU> wrote:

On 10/4/18 10:00 AM, Fábio Gomes wrote:

...

I'm just not sure if the end date was kept on 3rd Sunday of February, 2019. How is it now?

In tzdb we left the February 2019 transition as it was, which was indeed at 00:00 on February 16. Perhaps the presidential decree (whenever it's published) will change that transition too; if so, we'll need to update tzdb further.

Thank you, Paul. I will watch for the decree also and inform you once it is released. I'm gonna keep this development version. Of course the "official" release would be better for me once it is uploaded so I can refer to it on my change documentation. I'm glad for the work all of you guys do. Cheers, ________________________________ De: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Enviado: quinta-feira, 4 de outubro de 2018 16:58 Para: Fábio Gomes Cc: Deborah Goldsmith; Time Zone Mailing List Assunto: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time On 10/4/18 12:03 PM, Fábio Gomes wrote:

do you know when the new tzdata.tar.gz would be available on IANA's site.

I'd like to see the presidential decree before issuing a new release, so it's likely to be some days. Also, there are no hard deadlines for official releases (I'm a volunteer). That being said, you can get the updated data now from the development version <https://github.com/eggert/tz/archive/master.tar.gz>.

Apparently both IATA and Brazil's own airline industry (ABEAR) are pushing back on the government, citing at least three million passengers on 42 thousand flights will be affected. Also stated by ABEAR's representative (translated via Google Translate): "Short-term changes bring risks to the entire operation of airlines". It's good to see others have realized the risk. I worry about the back and forth though. https://www.panrotas.com.br/aviacao/aeroportos/2018/10/iata-ve-troca-no-hora... https://www.panrotas.com.br/aviacao/empresas/2018/10/abear-se-posiciona-cont... http://www.abear.com.br/imprensa/notas-e-releases/mostrar/posicionamento-abe... -Matt ________________________________ From: tz <tz-bounces@iana.org> on behalf of Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2018 8:37 AM To: Fábio Gomes Cc: Time Zone Mailing List Subject: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time On 10/4/18 4:49 AM, Fábio Gomes wrote:

How long does it takes to update tzdata with this new information?

It depends on what you consider an "update". I just now updated the development version <https://github.com/eggert/tz> with the attached patch, and you can use that now if you like. I'd like to plan for a new tzdb release soon after the presidential decree is published (please let me know when that happens).

we have a very shourt window to apply this new update.

That's unfortunately true. We have a paragraph about this in <https://data.iana.org/time-zones/tz-link.html>. Here's how Google Translate renders it in Portuguese, and perhaps you can improve this translation and send it to Moreira Franco, the minister of Mines and Energy, who's supposed to be in charge of DST in Brazil: --- Se o seu governo planeja alterar seus limites de fuso horário ou as regras de horário de verão, informe <tz@iana.org> com bastante antecedência, pois isso coordenará as atualizações para muitos telefones celulares, computadores e outros dispositivos em todo o mundo. Com menos de um ano de antecedência, há uma boa chance de que alguns relógios baseados em computador operem incorretamente após a alteração, devido a atrasos na propagação de atualizações de software e dados. Quanto mais curto for o aviso, mais prováveis serão os problemas do relógio; veja "Sobre o tempo das mudanças de fuso horário" <https://codeofmatt.com/2016/04/23/on-the-timing-of-time-zone-changes/> para exemplos.

The last DST change is already informed in Time and Date site: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/change/brazil https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/brazil-delays-dst-2018.html https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/brazil-delays-dst-2018.html Would this be enough to update tzdata in IANA's site? Thanks guys ________________________________ De: Rodrigo Brüning Wessler <madigo@gmail.com> Enviado: segunda-feira, 8 de outubro de 2018 17:15 Para: mj1856@hotmail.com Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu; flgoms@hotmail.com; tz@iana.org Assunto: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time Yes, we are still waiting for the oficial presidencial decree about the DST change. IATA and ABEAR argue that the DST change will afect 3 millon people that travel by airplane on affect period. We had elections in Brazil yesterday, including for president. So all the attention was on that, may be this week we will have an official decision. More two sources: https://veja.abril.com.br/economia/companhias-aereas-reclamam-de-nova-altera... http://agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br/economia/noticia/2018-10/aereas-dizem-que-mu... Em seg, 8 de out de 2018 às 16:02, Matt Johnson <mj1856@hotmail.com<mailto:mj1856@hotmail.com>> escreveu: Apparently both IATA and Brazil's own airline industry (ABEAR) are pushing back on the government, citing at least three million passengers on 42 thousand flights will be affected. Also stated by ABEAR's representative (translated via Google Translate): "Short-term changes bring risks to the entire operation of airlines". It's good to see others have realized the risk. I worry about the back and forth though. https://www.panrotas.com.br/aviacao/aeroportos/2018/10/iata-ve-troca-no-hora... https://www.panrotas.com.br/aviacao/empresas/2018/10/abear-se-posiciona-cont... http://www.abear.com.br/imprensa/notas-e-releases/mostrar/posicionamento-abe... -Matt ________________________________ From: tz <tz-bounces@iana.org<mailto:tz-bounces@iana.org>> on behalf of Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:eggert@cs.ucla.edu>> Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2018 8:37 AM To: Fábio Gomes Cc: Time Zone Mailing List Subject: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time On 10/4/18 4:49 AM, Fábio Gomes wrote:

How long does it takes to update tzdata with this new information?

It depends on what you consider an "update". I just now updated the development version <https://github.com/eggert/tz> with the attached patch, and you can use that now if you like. I'd like to plan for a new tzdb release soon after the presidential decree is published (please let me know when that happens).

we have a very shourt window to apply this new update.

That's unfortunately true. We have a paragraph about this in <https://data.iana.org/time-zones/tz-link.html>. Here's how Google Translate renders it in Portuguese, and perhaps you can improve this translation and send it to Moreira Franco, the minister of Mines and Energy, who's supposed to be in charge of DST in Brazil: --- Se o seu governo planeja alterar seus limites de fuso horário ou as regras de horário de verão, informe <tz@iana.org<mailto:tz@iana.org>> com bastante antecedência, pois isso coordenará as atualizações para muitos telefones celulares, computadores e outros dispositivos em todo o mundo. Com menos de um ano de antecedência, há uma boa chance de que alguns relógios baseados em computador operem incorretamente após a alteração, devido a atrasos na propagação de atualizações de software e dados. Quanto mais curto for o aviso, mais prováveis serão os problemas do relógio; veja "Sobre o tempo das mudanças de fuso horário" <https://codeofmatt.com/2016/04/23/on-the-timing-of-time-zone-changes/> para exemplos.

On 09/10/2018 14:18, Fábio Gomes wrote:

Would this be enough to update tzdata in IANA's site? Not really, they are guessing against the same information as tz itself is and timeanddate.com is just as likely to be right as tz is ...

That IATA is now complaining about the very short notice not being acceptable may be better at encouraging governments to provide adequate leadtimes on these sort of changes? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

You are completely right. But ordinary people with their tickets on hand would get confuse. The real issue here is that our president changed the date only because some students could miss their exams. That's a shame. The ministry of of education was (or was supposed to be) aware of this date, since the decree was signed on Dec 2017. Why he didn't planned the exams timetable around this decree? At the end, we are the ones that will work nights to correct (or not) the timezones on our operating systems and Javas, running against the clock. ________________________________ De: tz <tz-bounces@iana.org> em nome de Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Enviado: terça-feira, 9 de outubro de 2018 15:43 Para: Lester Caine; Time zone mailing list Assunto: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time Lester Caine wrote:

That IATA is now complaining about the very short notice

If *I* were running an airline, I'd issue tickets with times in UTC only. That would solve *that* problem. And perhaps that's why I'm not running any airlines....

I'll just leave this here: https://qntm.org/abolish 😉 ________________________________ From: tz <tz-bounces@iana.org> on behalf of Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk> Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 3:36 PM To: Time zone mailing list Subject: Re: [tz] Another change on Brazilian DST time On 09/10/2018 19:43, Paul Eggert wrote:

...

That IATA is now complaining about the very short notice

If *I* were running an airline, I'd issue tickets with times in UTC only. That would solve *that* problem.

And perhaps that's why I'm not running any airlines....

Why just airlines ... just get everyone to use UTC and the problem is solved ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

In fact railroad in countries like Kazakhstan, Russia, China do follow time of their capital and thus you need to use Moscow time even if you're taking a train at Vladivostok, which it doesn't appears to be convenient. 在 2018年10月10日週三 02:44，Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> 寫道：

Lester Caine wrote:

...

That IATA is now complaining about the very short notice

If *I* were running an airline, I'd issue tickets with times in UTC only. That would solve *that* problem.

And perhaps that's why I'm not running any airlines....

Many IPhone users woke up one hour earlier in Brazil today Apparently, the IOS changed the phone time to DST, in last year (2017) the date to start DST in Brazil was october 15 (coincidence, no?). Maybe this problem already occurred because the first change in DST rule, that changed the start date to november 4, because of the elections dates on Brazil. If this assumption is correct, we had problems even with 10 months to update the DST rules. It's a little sample of what can happen if the DST is changed again with only a few weeks to update all affected devices. sources: https://tecnoblog.net/263674/iphone-acertar-relogio-alarme-horario-verao-err... https://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/app/noticia/brasil/2018/10/15/interna-... Em qua, 10 de out de 2018 às 15:39, Stepan Golosunov <stepan@golosunov.pp.ru> escreveu:

11.10.2018 в 00:53:17 +0800 Phake Nick написал(а):

...

In fact railroad in countries like Kazakhstan, Russia, China do follow time of their capital and thus you need to use Moscow time even if you're taking a train at Vladivostok, which it doesn't appears to be convenient.

That's no longer true for Russia: http://eng.rzd.ru/newse/public/en?STRUCTURE_ID=15&layer_id=4839&id=107332

...

在 2018年10月10日週三 02:44，Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> 寫道：

...

Lester Caine wrote:

...

That IATA is now complaining about the very short notice

If *I* were running an airline, I'd issue tickets with times in UTC only. That would solve *that* problem.

And perhaps that's why I'm not running any airlines....

OK, here’s a followup article with more information. https://g1.globo.com/economia/tecnologia/noticia/2018/10/15/clientes-da-tim-... Debbie

On Oct 15, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Deborah Goldsmith <goldsmit@apple.com> wrote:

iOS currently has the start of DST in Brazil on November 4, per the latest released IANA data.

If you read the article, you’ll see the problem affects customers of the TIM mobile network, and is affecting Asus phones on that network as well. Customers of other mobile networks are not affected. Also, the article says that the user’s time zone changed from “Sao Paulo” to “Etc/GMT+2”. All this would tend to indicate that one network changed the customers’ time zone via the NITZ protocol.

I expect more details will be forthcoming.

I’m sincerely hoping Brazil releases the final decree on the change to November 14 very soon (or an announcement the decree has been retracted).

Debbie

...

On Oct 15, 2018, at 4:49 AM, Rodrigo Brüning Wessler <madigo@gmail.com> wrote:

Many IPhone users woke up one hour earlier in Brazil today Apparently, the IOS changed the phone time to DST, in last year (2017) the date to start DST in Brazil was october 15 (coincidence, no?).

Maybe this problem already occurred because the first change in DST rule, that changed the start date to november 4, because of the elections dates on Brazil. If this assumption is correct, we had problems even with 10 months to update the DST rules. It's a little sample of what can happen if the DST is changed again with only a few weeks to update all affected devices.

sources: https://tecnoblog.net/263674/iphone-acertar-relogio-alarme-horario-verao-err... https://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/app/noticia/brasil/2018/10/15/interna-...

Em qua, 10 de out de 2018 às 15:39, Stepan Golosunov <stepan@golosunov.pp.ru> escreveu: 11.10.2018 в 00:53:17 +0800 Phake Nick написал(а):

...

In fact railroad in countries like Kazakhstan, Russia, China do follow time of their capital and thus you need to use Moscow time even if you're taking a train at Vladivostok, which it doesn't appears to be convenient.

That's no longer true for Russia: http://eng.rzd.ru/newse/public/en?STRUCTURE_ID=15&layer_id=4839&id=107332

...

在 2018年10月10日週三 02:44，Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> 寫道：

...

Lester Caine wrote:

...

That IATA is now complaining about the very short notice

If *I* were running an airline, I'd issue tickets with times in UTC only. That would solve *that* problem.

And perhaps that's why I'm not running any airlines....

Thanks for the heads-up. Proposed patch to tzdb attached, and installed into the development version. We'll need a new release very soon for Volgograd anyway, even though our Brazil data in the next release won't change from the current 2018e release.

On 15/10/2018 12:59, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:

Should we have a zone for these trains? What would we call it?

Since one has to have the position to know what offset to use it's simply a geoposition problem which the next RFC should certainly address? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL ----------------------------- Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

On 2018-10-15 08:49, Paul Eggert wrote:

On 10/15/18 4:59 AM, Clive D.W. Feather wrote:

...

Should we have a zone for these trains?

They should have switched after Kalgoorlie, maybe about Caiguna, to Eucla +8/9:45 zone, before the state border, and stayed on that zone till maybe about Cook, or somewhere else short of Adelaide.

We've avoided having Zone lines for mobile clocks like those in trains or spacecraft, as there would be too many possibilities and it's hard enough keeping track of stationary clocks. The Indian Pacific sounds like it was following the rule of ships at sea, which is a reasonable approximation when crossing the Nullarbor Plain.

Overeducated surveyor couldn't just use "treeless plain" as too cliched? AU added 29 Timezone locations https://timezone.com.au/locations/ just to confuse web search results. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.

AU added 29 Timezone locations https://timezone.com.au/locations/ just to confuse web search results.

Nice find.  Also don't forget the German clothing company: https://www.timezone.de/en Here's me in my "TIMEZONE" shirt. :) https://twitter.com/maggiepint/status/922493333145976834 (sorry for previous email - hit send too early)

Robert Elz said:

| >> Should we have a zone for these trains? | | They should have switched after Kalgoorlie, maybe about Caiguna, to Eucla | +8/9:45 zone, before the state border, and stayed on that zone till maybe about | Cook, or somewhere else short of Adelaide.

I don't know where you think the train runs, but it is nowhere particularly close to either Caiguna (at that approx longitude it is close to Rawlinna, a hundred km or so north) or the Eucla timezone enclave (which is quite small, and on the coast

Indeed. And by "close to Rawlinna" you actually mean it goes between the airstrip (150 metres south) and the mine (1 km north) at Rawlinna.

I've travelled on it a few times (though once is really enough ... there is just so much of looking out windows at vast expanses of scrub land that one can take in a lifetime ... though it is certainly worth doing that once)

Indeed, once is certainly worth doing.

and didn't recall it going near Eucla, so I checked ...

The best map I can find is https://www.luxotren.com/files/images/media/mapa-recorridos.jpg This doesn't have a scale on it, but Eucla is almost at the state border and the nearest stop - Deakin - is almost exactly 100 km north of there.

What times are used depends more on where the train will be in the middle of the day, and changes in the middle of the night, as (just like everyone else) having a situation where the train reached the "logical" place to switch zones just as the 12:00 lunch sitting are about to be seated, only for them to be told, "sorry your mealtime is over the next sitting is starting - we just changed time zones and it is 13:00 now) (assuming a Perth->Sydney train) would not go down too well.

In our case one change was at about 01:00 -> 02:00 (official departure from Kalgoorlie was 02:30 and my GPS log says 02:28) but the other was 12:49:28 -> 14:19:28. I forget (and haven't recorded) when we had lunch, but there were only 12 of us in Red Class and it was a buffet, not fixed sittings. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646