Russian time zones: (painfully slow) progress report
I don't know Russian which will make the following more convoluted than need be; I apologize in advance. We have reports of Russian time zone changes in 2011, as well as issues identified by Tobias Conradi. Sanjeev Gupta provided this link... http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 ...to Russian Government Decree #23 of 1992-01-08; eight ".png" scan files are available. 1992 Decree sections have bold headings; the headings include (in sequence): "2-M 3-M" "3-M 4-M" "4-M 5-M" "5-M 6-M" "6-M 7-M" "7-M 8-M" "8-M 9-M" "9-M 10-M" "10-M 11-M" "11-M 12-M" The sections seem to cover time zones from west to east. "московское" ("Moscow") appears in the "2-M 3-M" section. "Магаданская" ("Magadan") appears in the "10-M 11-M" section. The difference of eight between "2" and "10" matches the difference in hours between Moscow time and Magadan time. So we should have these associations: "2-M 3-M" Moscow "3-M 4-M" Moscow+1 "4-M 5-M" Moscow+2 "5-M 6-M" Moscow+3 "6-M 7-M" Moscow+4 "7-M 8-M" Moscow+5 "8-M 9-M" Moscow+6 Asia/Yakutsk "9-M 10-M" Moscow+7 Asia/Vladivostok "10-M 11-M" Moscow+8 Asia/Magadan "11-M 12-M" Moscow+9 Alexander Krivenyshev provided this link... http://www.government.ru/gov/results/16355/print/ ...to Russian Government Decree #725 of 2011-08-23. "Усть-Майский" ("Ust-Maya" or "Ust-Maysky" or "Ust'-Majskij") appears in the "8-M 9-M" (Moscow+6, Asia/Yakutsk) section of 1992's Decree 23. This matches 2011's Decree 725. It does not match the commentary in tzdata2011k's "europe" file, which has the area in Moscow+7, Asia/Vladivostok. Counter comments should be added. "Булунский" ("Bulun" or "Bulunskij") appears in the "8-M 9-M" (Moscow+6, Asia/Yakutsk) section of 1992's Decree 23. This matches 2011's Decree 725. It does not match the commentary in tzdata2011k's "europe" file, which has the area in Moscow+7, Asia/Vladivostok. Counter comments should be added. "Томпонский" ("Tomponsky" or "Tomponskij") appears in the "9-M 10-M" (Moscow+7, Asia/Vladivostok) section of 1992's Decree 23. 2011's Decree 725 has it at Moscow+6, Asia/Yakutsk. tzdata2011k's "europe" file has it as part of Asia/Vladivostok. It must have shifted at some unknown instant between 1992 and 2011; we need a new zone (Asia/Khandyga) for Tomponsky. "Оймяконский" ("Oimkayon" or "Ojmyaknoskij") appears in the "9-M 10-M" (Moscow+7, Asia/Vladivostok) section of 1992's Decree 23. This matches 2011's Decree 725. It does not match the commentary in tzdata2011k's "europe" file, which has the area in Moscow+8, Asia/Magadan. Counter comments should be added. "Сахали" ("Sakhalin") appears in the "9-M 10-M" (Moscow+7, Asia/Vladivostok) section of 1992's Decree 23; I can't find any instance of "Курильский" or "Курильские" ("Kuril") in 1992's decree. 2011's Decree 725 has most of the Sakhalin Oblast (including the "South-Kuril region") at Moscow+7 and has the "North-Kuril region" at Moscow+8. tzdata2011k's "europe" file has an Asia/Sakhalin zone and no Kuril zones (but some Kuril comments). tzdata2011k's Asia/Sakhalin is Moscow+8 until 1997-03-20 02:00:00, Moscow+7 thereafter; Gwillim Law's IATA SSIM research led to the conclusion that Sakhalin (in particular, Yuzhno-Sakhalin) switched in 1997 (while all the Kurils remained at Moscow+8). We need a new zone (Asia/Severo-Kirilsk) for North-Kuril if that area was indeed Moscow+7 in 1992 and is Moscow+8 now. We need a new zone (Asia/Yuzhno-Kirilsk) for South-Kiril if that area did indeed begin to differ from Asia/Sakhalin in 1997. "Новосибирск" ("Novosibirsk") appears in the "5-M 6-M" (Moscow+3) section of 1992's Decree 23. 2011's Decree 725 also has Novosibirsk at Moscow+3. However, tzdata2011k's "europe" file claims that it was at Moscow+4 until 1993-05-23. "Томская" ("Tomsk") appears in the "5-M 6-M" (Moscow+3) section of 1992's Decree 23. 2011's Decree 725 also has Tomsk at Moscow+3. However... http://newsru.com/russia/01may2002/clock.html ...claims that it switched from Moscow+4 to Moscow+3 on 2002-05-01 (if translate.google.com is correct). We also have... # From Stanislaw A. Kuzikowski (1994-06-29): # But now it is some months since Novosibirsk is 3 hours ahead of Moscow! # I do not know why they have decided to make this change; # as far as I remember it was done exactly during winter->summer switching # so we (Novosibirsk) simply did not switch. # Tomsk is still 4 hours ahead of Moscow. ...which would indicate that Novosibirsk and Tomsk switched from Moscow+4 to Moscow+3 (and at different instants to boot). It looks as if we need an Asia/Tomsk zone (Tomsk being the most populous city in Tomsk Oblast). Since folks in Tomsk can use the Novosibirsk rules for current times, I'd hope to get better information on time history in Tomsk and Novobirsk (in particular if and when there were transitions from Moscow+4 to Moscow+3) before creating the new zone. --ado
On 10/01/11 18:55, Arthur David Olson wrote:
I'd hope to get better information on time history in Tomsk and Novobirsk (in particular if and when there were transitions from Moscow+4 to Moscow+3) before creating the new zone.
According to Shanks & Pottenger (2003), which of course is not always reliable, the earlier history of Tomsk should look something like this: Zone Asia/Tomsk 5:39:52 - LMT 1919 Dec 22 6:00 - TOMT 1930 Jun 21 # Tomsk Time 7:00 Russia TOM%sT 1991 Mar 31 2:00s 6:00 Russia TOM%sT 1992 Jan 19 2:00s 7:00 Russia TOM%sT 1993 May 23 # say Shanks & P. 6:00 Russia TOM%sT ... That is, it's like Novosibirsk, but switched to UTC+6 on December 22 1919 rather than on December 14 of that year. I suspect the difference is due to when the city in question came under Bolshevik control. The fall of Tomsk to the Bolsheviks on December 20, 1919 marked the end of organized White Russian resistance in eastern Siberia. Perhaps Shanks & Pottenger assume it took the Bolsheviks a couple of days to officially set the clocks.
On 10/02/2011 04:55 AM, Arthur David Olson wrote: ...
Sanjeev Gupta provided this link... http://government.consultant.ru/page.aspx?1223966 ...to Russian Government Decree #23 of 1992-01-08; eight ".png" scan files are available.
1992 Decree sections have bold headings; the headings include (in sequence): "2-M 3-M" ... Those are the ordinals in the instrumental case (in which the "-m" corresponds to the "-th"). The ordinals pertain to the actual demarkation of the international timezones (/chasovyye poyasa/, numbered 0..23) on the territory of Russia. The bold headings mean "the border between the Mth and Nth timezone".
BTW, the document only notes the possibility, but doesn't explicitly refer to the then actual (Soviet) practice for the large territories to observe the zonal time of the neighbouring timezone. -Yury
For Omsk Time (MSK+3) there is an additional issue with the two Altais. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omsk_Time gives 1993-05-23 Novosibirsk Oblast - Asia/Novosibirsk 1995-05-28 Altai Krai and Altai Republic - Asia/Omsk 2002-05-01 Tomsk Oblast - Asia/Novosibirsk 2010-03-28 Kemerovo Oblast - Asia/Novokuznetsk with broken sources. If the Altais joined independent from the others that would mean creating Asia/Barnaul as I did suggest 2011-09-17 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/4011 The current tzdata has discontinuous zones because the Altais are included with Omsk, while Novosibirsk which lies between Omsk and the Altais is given as having joined Omsk later. Maybe people who can write Russian easily can do some googling for time changes in the two Altais, in Tomsk and in Novosibirsk, especially when did they join Omsk Time and provide the sources here. t -- Tobias Conradi Rheinsberger Str. 18 10115 Berlin Germany http://tobiasconradi.com/tobias_conradi
participants (4)
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Arthur David Olson -
Paul Eggert -
Tobias Conradi -
Yury Tarasievich