Politics of TZ changes
The recent changes in Egypt have me thinking. How is it that there isn't some sort of international treaty, law, or agreement about how much notice a government needs to give when making time zone changes? I know almost nothing about international law, but aren't there organizations that coordinate things like trade and commerce that would have something to say about this? It's seems strange to me that we can all agree to let the ITU coordinate UTC while time zones don't seem to be coordinated by any official legal body. Of course, it makes sense that each government should retain its sovereign right to set its time zones as it pleases - but surely something could be done about the process as to which it enacts those changes? I think we can all agree that having a spokesperson give vague details in a media article a week beforehand is not the right way to do things. It's also concerning that people tend to set deadlines based on the date of the change. Not only should time be allowed for the change to be incorporated into the data and distributed to systems, but also people should think about all of the ways that future activities are scheduled based on current knowledge of the tz rules. For example, say you have a weekly scheduled conference call between Egypt and somewhere else in the world. At the moment the Egyptian government announced the change, some of your meeting times became inaccurate. With the change sent out today (2 days before the change), it's not very likely you would receive this update in time to adjust your meeting time. But even if you did get the update, it's quite likely that you would have to reschedule due to conflict with another appointment. For some, this might be an inconvenience. But for others, it could make or break a deal. Cumulatively this could have an economic impact, so one would think it would be in a countries own best interest to give sufficient notice. Perhaps if there were a set of rules, they might be unenforceable and some cases would still slip through the cracks. But at least if there were guidelines defined by some sort of official international governance - we might have a fighting chance. Please share your thoughts and opinions on this topic. What would these rules/guidelines look like? Who might we lobby to enact such a thing?
On 05/13/2014 06:29 PM, Matt Johnson wrote:
Cumulatively this could have an economic impact, so one would think it would be in a countries own best interest to give sufficient notice.
One would think so, especially seen the actual rather significant cost for all company's doing business in that country/region to make sure all systems (if it is at all possible or even noticed before it's to late that it is affected ) are up to date . I think it often bottoms down to (some form of) ignorance. Something like "How hard can it be to set the clock one hour forward" , ignoring or not having a clue of the impact this is having. I highly doubt the politicians who make these kind of "hey i have a great idea, let's change the start date / introduce / stop with using DST next week/month" would be in any way way bothered by some kind of "international guidelines". IMHO the only real impact would be to have some big (local) company's knock on that door and ask to stop this silly behavior. But of course the people who might actually do that (ceo etc level) just yell at the tech people to "get it fixed".. And then you have of course the cultural/social factor introduced by linking daylight saving to the Ramadan, who's start date is a variable factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan#Beginning Something for which I see no real solution besides country's like Morocco or Egypt deciding to not use an other offset during the Ramadan period. Just my 2 cents :) Gunther
On Tue 2014-05-13T19:41:59 +0200, gunther Vermeir hath writ:
IMHO the only real impact would be to have some big (local) company's knock on that door and ask to stop this silly behavior. But of course the people who might actually do that (ceo etc level) just yell at the tech people to "get it fixed"..
The arrival/departure/gate times for aviation probably give the most leverage in this conversation, but the line "Planes will crash" becomes pitted against the lack of evidence that has ever happened. -- Steve Allen <sla@ucolick.org> WGS-84 (GPS) UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB Natural Sciences II, Room 165 Lat +36.99855 1156 High Street Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng -122.06015 Santa Cruz, CA 95064 http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ Hgt +250 m
On 05/13/2014 10:49 AM, Steve Allen wrote:
the line "Planes will crash" becomes pitted against the lack of evidence that has ever happened.
I would guess that air safety issues concerning daylight saving time are more about the transitions than about when the transition rules change. Although it was long assumed that people readily compensate for DST transitions, more recent research suggests that sleep loss persists for several days, and that this can increase automobile accident rates. As far as I know, DST's effect on air safety has never been studied; one might presume it's smaller than in automobile safety since pilots need to adjust to time zone changes anyway, but DST also affects ground crews who don't move that much. For a recent review of sleep-related concerns, please see: Harrison Y. The impact of daylight saving time on sleep and related behaviours. Sleep Med Rev. 2013 Aug;17(4):285–92. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2012.10.001
I wonder how they keep aircraft from landing on top of each other on the runway when the skip forward or back? On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 05/13/2014 10:49 AM, Steve Allen wrote:
the line "Planes will crash" becomes pitted against the lack of evidence that has ever happened.
I would guess that air safety issues concerning daylight saving time are more about the transitions than about when the transition rules change. Although it was long assumed that people readily compensate for DST transitions, more recent research suggests that sleep loss persists for several days, and that this can increase automobile accident rates. As far as I know, DST's effect on air safety has never been studied; one might presume it's smaller than in automobile safety since pilots need to adjust to time zone changes anyway, but DST also affects ground crews who don't move that much.
For a recent review of sleep-related concerns, please see:
Harrison Y. The impact of daylight saving time on sleep and related behaviours. Sleep Med Rev. 2013 Aug;17(4):285–92. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2012.10.001
use UTC? :) On 05/13/2014 10:11 PM, Zoidsoft wrote:
I wonder how they keep aircraft from landing on top of each other on the runway when the skip forward or back?
On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu <mailto:eggert@cs.ucla.edu>> wrote:
On 05/13/2014 10:49 AM, Steve Allen wrote:
the line "Planes will crash" becomes pitted against the lack of evidence that has ever happened.
I would guess that air safety issues concerning daylight saving time are more about the transitions than about when the transition rules change. Although it was long assumed that people readily compensate for DST transitions, more recent research suggests that sleep loss persists for several days, and that this can increase automobile accident rates. As far as I know, DST's effect on air safety has never been studied; one might presume it's smaller than in automobile safety since pilots need to adjust to time zone changes anyway, but DST also affects ground crews who don't move that much.
For a recent review of sleep-related concerns, please see:
Harrison Y. The impact of daylight saving time on sleep and related behaviours. Sleep Med Rev. 2013 Aug;17(4):285–92. http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2012.10.001
On 05/13/2014 01:11 PM, Zoidsoft wrote:
I wonder how they keep aircraft from landing on top of each other on the runway when the skip forward or back?
The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration uses UTC for all operations. There is a stylized protocol for communicating times via voice radio, e.g., 19:20 UTC is transmitted as "won nin-er too ze-ro". Controllers can also communicate local time upon request and this must be stated clearly, e.g., 18:30 local time might be transmitted "wun ait tree ze-ro local". If there's any ambiguity about what "local" means, pilots and controllers are expected to be aware of and to handle it. For more, see: Federal Aviation Administration. Aeronautical Information Manual (2012-02-09, updated through 2013-08-22). Section 4-2-12 "Time". http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0402.html
Zoidsoft said:
I wonder how they keep aircraft from landing on top of each other on the runway when the skip forward or back?
Operations are normally done in UTC. Airlines often simply shift the local-clock flight times so as to keep the UTC times the same, particularly for international flights. A look at airline timetables will often show this. -- Clive D.W. Feather | If you lie to the compiler, Email: clive@davros.org | it will get its revenge. Web: http://www.davros.org | - Henry Spencer Mobile: +44 7973 377646
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 09:29:55 -0700 From: Matt Johnson <mj1856@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <BAY178-W213AD7E5BF71C401A80BEBC2340@phx.gbl> | Who might we lobby to enact such a thing? I agree with you on the stupidity of making changes like this at the last second, but there really is nothing that can be done (beyond perhaps internal pressure inside the countries that do it ... Egypt is by no means the only one.) That's because the answer to the question you ended your message with (above) is "no-one" - there is no such thing as global enacting. Each country does what it likes, on all matters (with a few odd exceptions like countries that are members of the EU, and even there, if a country was bothered too much by EU rules, it could just leave the EU). Everything else is a matter of treaties - countries agreeing to do this or that, which remain effective exactly as long as they continue to agree. Sure, sometimes, other countries can try and pressure a country that is behaving badly (sanctions and so on .. even invasions) but it is hard to imagine anyone jeopardising their own trade arrangements (let alone starting a war) just because some other country didn't provide enough notice that it was going to change its clocks. Aside from that, about all that's left would be to find some organisation that the relevant country (countries) is (are) a member of (maybe the WTO or something) and have them enact some by-law, and then hope that either the member countries actually take notice, or that the organisation has enough teeth to punish malefactors. Far more significant issues than time keeping have failed at this kind of thing. kre
On May 13, 2014, at 9:29 AM, Matt Johnson <mj1856@hotmail.com<mailto:mj1856@hotmail.com>> wrote: Perhaps if there were a set of rules, they might be unenforceable and some cases would still slip through the cracks. But at least if there were guidelines defined by some sort of official international governance - we might have a fighting chance. Please share your thoughts and opinions on this topic. What would these rules/guidelines look like? Who might we lobby to enact such a thing? My suggestion would be to focus on what you have proposed without the "official international governance" part. What seems to be lacking is a best practices document that describes the optimal way for the powers-that-be to enact time zone changes. Such a document could explain which communities should be advised or consulted in enacting such a change, and the recommended amount of lead times that different industries need for changes to propagate. It could also describe potential risks (such as economic impacts) of making such changes, particularly with a short lead time. If such a best practices document existed, that would be a good foundation that one could use to pursue awareness with the relevant governing agencies. Jumping straight to official governance route seems to me to less likely to achieve anything. In my experience, governments are generally quite eager to have practical documents developed by experts that they can use to help guide them. They do not have to have to be enforced by treaty to have utility. kim
At 09:41 14-05-2014, Kim Davies wrote:
My suggestion would be to focus on what you have proposed without the "official international governance" part. What seems to be lacking is a best practices document that describes the optimal way for the powers-that-be to enact time zone changes. Such a document could explain which communities should be advised or consulted in enacting such a change, and the recommended amount of lead times that different industries need for changes to propagate. It could also describe potential risks (such as economic impacts) of making such changes, particularly with a short lead time.
I agree that it would be better to focus on the suggestion without "official international governance". The intent of the time zone database is a record of the time set on the clocks in a region. The database can be used as a source of information for someone in a different location to find out the local time in a region. The problems could be: (a) The short lead time (b) Lack of information about the time change (c) Politics I gather that everyone agrees that it is better to stay far away from (c). :-)
If such a best practices document existed, that would be a good foundation that one could use to pursue awareness with the relevant governing agencies. Jumping straight to official governance route seems to me to less likely to achieve anything. In my experience, governments are generally quite eager to have practical documents developed by experts that they can use to help guide them. They do not have to have to be enforced by treaty to have utility.
The suggestion might be about having a best practices document for (a) and (b). It's a good idea. One of the issues is how to do that without getting near (c). I would suggest having a file similar to the Theory file to explain (a) and (b). Regards, -sm
Thanks Kim. The more I think about this approach, the better it sounds. I can think of a few other examples where this has worked well:- http://semver.org- http://agilemanifesto.org Perhaps I'll start something and those that are interested can contribute. Thanks for the idea! -Matt From: kim.davies@icann.org To: mj1856@hotmail.com CC: tz@iana.org Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 09:41:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [tz] Politics of TZ changes On May 13, 2014, at 9:29 AM, Matt Johnson <mj1856@hotmail.com> wrote: Perhaps if there were a set of rules, they might be unenforceable and some cases would still slip through the cracks. But at least if there were guidelines defined by some sort of official international governance - we might have a fighting chance. Please share your thoughts and opinions on this topic. What would these rules/guidelines look like? Who might we lobby to enact such a thing? My suggestion would be to focus on what you have proposed without the "official international governance" part. What seems to be lacking is a best practices document that describes the optimal way for the powers-that-be to enact time zone changes. Such a document could explain which communities should be advised or consulted in enacting such a change, and the recommended amount of lead times that different industries need for changes to propagate. It could also describe potential risks (such as economic impacts) of making such changes, particularly with a short lead time. If such a best practices document existed, that would be a good foundation that one could use to pursue awareness with the relevant governing agencies. Jumping straight to official governance route seems to me to less likely to achieve anything. In my experience, governments are generally quite eager to have practical documents developed by experts that they can use to help guide them. They do not have to have to be enforced by treaty to have utility. kim
Fact finding is part of encouraging governments to do the right thing about changing daylight saving. This week Paul Eggert noted how changes propagated to a system within a day of being released. That's the best case. What's the worst case? And: what's best practice? The most recent change to US DST was the Energy Policy Act of 2005; it was signed into law on 2005-08-08; the first change resulting from the law was 2007-03-11, meaning there was more than 18 months of advance notice. Has there been a longer lead time? Has any government gotten closer to a zero lead time than Egypt? @dashdashado On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Matt Johnson <mj1856@hotmail.com> wrote:
The recent changes in Egypt have me thinking. How is it that there isn't some sort of international treaty, law, or agreement about how much notice a government needs to give when making time zone changes?
I know almost nothing about international law, but aren't there organizations that coordinate things like trade and commerce that would have something to say about this? It's seems strange to me that we can all agree to let the ITU coordinate UTC while time zones don't seem to be coordinated by any official legal body.
Of course, it makes sense that each government should retain its sovereign right to set its time zones as it pleases - but surely something could be done about the process as to which it enacts those changes? I think we can all agree that having a spokesperson give vague details in a media article a week beforehand is not the right way to do things.
It's also concerning that people tend to set deadlines based on the date of the change. Not only should time be allowed for the change to be incorporated into the data and distributed to systems, but also people should think about all of the ways that future activities are scheduled based on current knowledge of the tz rules.
For example, say you have a weekly scheduled conference call between Egypt and somewhere else in the world. At the moment the Egyptian government announced the change, some of your meeting times became inaccurate. With the change sent out today (2 days before the change), it's not very likely you would receive this update in time to adjust your meeting time. But even if you did get the update, it's quite likely that you would have to reschedule due to conflict with another appointment.
For some, this might be an inconvenience. But for others, it could make or break a deal. Cumulatively this could have an economic impact, so one would think it would be in a countries own best interest to give sufficient notice.
Perhaps if there were a set of rules, they might be unenforceable and some cases would still slip through the cracks. But at least if there were guidelines defined by some sort of official international governance - we might have a fighting chance.
Please share your thoughts and opinions on this topic. What would these rules/guidelines look like? Who might we lobby to enact such a thing?
Arthur David Olson wrote:
Has any government gotten closer to a zero lead time than Egypt?
I'm afraid so. I don't know the record, but the least notice that I recall recently was Libya last October. The Libyan government announcement was published at 12:51 (10:51 UTC) October 24 canceling a daylight-saving transition at 02:00 (00:00 UTC) October 25, which is less than 14 hours' notice. The tz mailing list was notified (by Even Scharning) at 10:27 UTC October 25 and we announced a new release at 00:32 UTC October 26, nearly a day after the change. http://pm.gov.ly/news/%D8%AA%D8%BA%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%8... http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2013-October/020472.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2013-October/020475.html
On May 18, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
Fact finding is part of encouraging governments to do the right thing about changing daylight saving.
This week Paul Eggert noted how changes propagated to a system within a day of being released. That's the best case. What's the worst case?
For embedded systems with long QA cycles, it could easily be a year.
And: what's best practice? The most recent change to US DST was the Energy Policy Act of 2005; it was signed into law on 2005-08-08; the first change resulting from the law was 2007-03-11, meaning there was more than 18 months of advance notice. Has there been a longer lead time? Has any government gotten closer to a zero lead time than Egypt?
I distinctly remember some years ago a change that had negative lead time. Another with lead time measured in minutes. paul
On 2014-05-19 08:18, Paul_Koning@dell.com wrote:
On May 18, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
Fact finding is part of encouraging governments to do the right thing about changing daylight saving. This week Paul Eggert noted how changes propagated to a system within a day of being released. That's the best case. What's the worst case?
For embedded systems with long QA cycles, it could easily be a year.
For enterprise systems, likely to be quarterly desktop core system patching, and quarterly to annual server core system patching.
And: what's best practice? The most recent change to US DST was the Energy Policy Act of 2005; it was signed into law on 2005-08-08; the first change resulting from the law was 2007-03-11, meaning there was more than 18 months of advance notice. Has there been a longer lead time? Has any government gotten closer to a zero lead time than Egypt?
For 2007 North American change, some Canadian provinces did not enact a law until pretty close to the initial cutover.
I distinctly remember some years ago a change that had negative lead time. Another with lead time measured in minutes.
Anyone with access to a tz repository having historical commit timestamps could compare those against the zone/rule change date/times in patches to come up with min/max lead times. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis
Am 20.05.2014 06:17, schrieb Brian Inglis:
On 2014-05-19 08:18, Paul_Koning@dell.com wrote:
On May 18, 2014, at 10:35 AM, Arthur David Olson <arthurdavidolson@gmail.com> wrote:
Fact finding is part of encouraging governments to do the right thing about changing daylight saving. This week Paul Eggert noted how changes propagated to a system within a day of being released. That's the best case. What's the worst case?
For embedded systems with long QA cycles, it could easily be a year.
This why we run our systems on UTC time. Only when user interaction is requiered we use localtime. re, wh
For enterprise systems, likely to be quarterly desktop core system patching, and quarterly to annual server core system patching.
And: what's best practice? The most recent change to US DST was the Energy Policy Act of 2005; it was signed into law on 2005-08-08; the first change resulting from the law was 2007-03-11, meaning there was more than 18 months of advance notice. Has there been a longer lead time? Has any government gotten closer to a zero lead time than Egypt?
For 2007 North American change, some Canadian provinces did not enact a law until pretty close to the initial cutover.
I distinctly remember some years ago a change that had negative lead time. Another with lead time measured in minutes.
Anyone with access to a tz repository having historical commit timestamps could compare those against the zone/rule change date/times in patches to come up with min/max lead times.
On Monday, May 19 2014, "Paul_Koning@dell.com" wrote to "<arthurdavidolson@gmail.com>, tz@iana.org" saying:
For embedded systems with long QA cycles, it could easily be a year.
And: what's best practice? The most recent change to US DST was the Energy Policy Act of 2005; it was signed into law on 2005-08-08; the first change resulting from the law was 2007-03-11, meaning there was more than 18 months of advance notice. Has there been a longer lead time? Has any government gotten closer to a zero lead time than Egypt?
I distinctly remember some years ago a change that had negative lead time. Another with lead time measured in minutes.
In 2001, the Mexican federal and Mexico City Federal District governments disagreed on who had the authority to declare DST, and as I recall, the TZDB had to wait a few days after the contested degree would have taken effect to see what the population was actually doing. -- Jonathan Lennox lennox@cs.columbia.edu
participants (15)
-
Arthur David Olson -
Brian Inglis -
Clive D.W. Feather -
gunther Vermeir -
Kim Davies -
lennox＠cs.columbia.edu -
Matt Johnson -
Paul Eggert -
Paul_Koning＠dell.com -
Philip Newton -
Robert Elz -
SM -
Steve Allen -
walter harms -
Zoidsoft