More thoughts on the clock change orgy of 1996-10-27:

"Rob Jones 4-6597 MR Sys" > INTERNET:jones@mr.med.ge.com wrote:

Anyone willing to venture a guess as to the number of clocks involved ? (including uwaves, vcrs, etc...) 11 clocks at my home, but only 3 people.

In terms of number of people, the 1996-10-27 fall back probably was about equal to 1991-09-15, when China changed its clocks last; however, in terms of clocks changed, the 1996-10-27 event clearly set an all-time record given the higher development level and more consumer goods available in the US and EU; in my household there were five timing devices to be changed per person, and I imagine in China it would probably be closer to one device per five persons. Valery Aronov > INTERNET:valery@ind.tansu.com.au wrote:

My own personal view is that we all should move the start of the workday and settings of our alarm-clocks if people really want to save energy or to wake up with sun. No clock adjustment at all. The only inconvinience I could imagine: two sets of working hours for offices - a summer set and a winter set. So a DST adjustment will mean switching from one set to another. Much less problems then now I think. Do you know if this suggestion was ever considered?

I would be very much in favor of this. One interesting thing in our office is that we have flextime and management is trying to get rid of it and to have everyone work 8-17. Most people's day begins around 7:45, and I would say about 15% of the office is on the equivalent of "Daylight Extra" with a workday beginning at 7. We have one woman who works 6-15 and who therefore could be considered on "Double Daylight Extra." I also have an interesting story about my former office, in Sacramento, the capital of California. When I worked there a decade ago, we had people in the office from 7:00 to 20:00. Full time employees were allowed to choose when they could come into work provided they worked an 8 hours within those limits. Sacramento is located in a valley in which summer days are VERY hot (average 35c and it's gone as high as 44c) but nights are quite pleasant, with an overnight low of 15c. I reacted to this by going on what might be called "Darkness Extra"; during the months when DST was in effect I set my work hours for 11:00-19:45, the equivalent of two hours of *reverse* DST to let me enjoy the cooler evenings. Alas, eventually the office went back to normal hours (first people in at 7:00; last out by 17:45) and I had to as well. Peter Hullah > INTERNET:Peter.Hullah@eurocontrol.fr wrote:

Isn't it about time the world came to realise that we don't live by the sun anymore and that spreading our sunlight more-or-less evenly around noon no longer has any sense?

Strongly disagree; if you work an 8 hour day on a day shift, half of it usually is before noon so the work day starts at 8 which makes the average wakeup time on workdays between 6 and 7, which is when the sun ought to rise. In June, therefore, DST makes sense and in October it does not.

I reckon everyone should add two hours to their current standard time and stick to it all year round.

I've always believed that what can be done an hour before sunrise is much pleasanter to do an hour after sunrise.

In answer to those who say "Just get up and go to bed two hours earlier" we all live in a community, and one family stepping out of line two hours is not on.

Actually I have heard of a few cases of families with pre-school children where the sole/or both adults work the night shift and the kids follow suit, although this has to change when the kids go to school. Garrett Wollman > INTERNET:wollman@lcs.mit.edu wrote:

...in a city like Boston ...retail sales in the major pedestrian districts and downtown areas drops off about 25% when the sunset is moved from 5:45 (after work) to 4:45 (before work lets out).

I wonder how much of that activity is transferred to the lunch period, breaks, or before work? Probably most of it.

As far as I'm concerned, we would be better off observing Atlantic time year-round.

Had Boston (and all of New England) not been near the largest city and capital of the US, it might have. Consider there are many cities (Cincinnati, Louisville, Chatannooga, Tallahassee) which astronomically belong in the Central zone observe Eastern time, and large areas are on Central time when they astronomically belong on Mountain (most of the six states in a north- south row between North Dakota and Texas). Alex Livingston >INTERNET:alex@agsm.unsw.edu.au wrote:

Reply to: Re: did the Holiday Is observe DST after the rest of Queensland stopped?

Australia's vying powers-that-be unfortunately have a very childish, ingnorant and it seems almost purely politically motivated approach to daylight saving. I have never tried to get to the bottom of how the dates for the clock changes were chosen but they are *particularly* bad choices. The switch made recently by the south-eastern mainland of the country comes at a time when the sun is rising only about 20 minutes later in the day (in absolute terms) than the earliest it ever rises, but about 2 hours earlier than the latest it ever rises. This means that the earliest sunrise of the year (in clock terms) occurs the day before clocks are advanced.

Just like most places in the United States before 1987 when almost nobody sprang forward before the last Sunday in April, wartime and 1974-5 excepted.

On the other hand, when the switch back to so-called standard time occurs at the end of March, the sun is rising about 1 hour and 20 minutes later (in absolute terms) than the earliest sunrise of the year and only about an hour earlier than the latest...

I've always thought the logical time to begin and end DST was at some time near the equinox when the sun is at least 1 hour earlier than the latest it does by standard time, and at least 1 hour later than the earliest it does by daylight time. DST should not be used short of an emergency during the time near winter solstice when the sun is rising <1 hour earlier than the latest it ever does by standard time, and if there is <2 hours between the earliest and latest sunrise, you don't have enough daylight to save to warrant DST! Peter Ilieve > INTERNET:peter@aldie.co.uk wrote on the subject: did the Holiday Is observe DST after the rest of Queenslan stopped?

Of my trio of islands, Eigg and Canna are also privately owned (I don't know about Muck). I fail to see why owning land that is bounded by sea rather than land bounded by a more normal fence makes the owners any less subject to the Summer Time Act 1972 than I am.

Don't you have laws in Australia? :-)

Setting up private and extra-legal times has a long history in the US. I remember Block Island, RI, went on DST in November 1973 two weeks after they fell back. I know people who were in Indiana in the 1950s-60s who remember the post office being an hour ahead or behind of the rest of town, an unincorporated area of a county being on a different time than a county seat, and so on. When the Uniform Time Act of 1966 was passed, Indiana passed a law requiring one clock in each public building to observe UTAT and marked "Official Time" so localities could go about their merry way.

People seem reluctant to give up summer time, as shown by popular support in the rest of Europe for changing from September to October, but don't seem to think of demanding an earlier start.

I wonder if anyone took a poll on the popularity of summer time in the last week in October 1996, when Europe was actually on summer time, as opposed to earlier polls showing majorities in favor.

At least we are making progress here on the cooperation front, at least until the French upset things by suggesting they would scrap the whole idea.

What is the status on that? Actually the situation in France (and Spain) is that they are already on year round daylight time since their 'standard' is GMT+1 instead of the GMT zone that (nearly all of) France and Spain are astronomically in. When they talk about 'summer time' what they really mean is DOUBLE summer time. It should be noted when the UK was on double DST during WW2 it always ended the second weekend in August or earlier except in 1944, and even then it ran only to mid-September. I can see objections to DDST on October 26th having more than a little merit.