DST changes in Hungary (full historical revision)
Dear Paul! I examined it all of the Hungary daylight saving time changes. More differences I found what I repaired and I prepared it it source file, which I attach to this letter. I used Library Hungarica online database as a source, where from scanned contemporary ministerial decrees, instructions, newspapers and from other documents it was possible to find the time of the changes concerning the years. https://library.hungaricana.hu I checked the modified changes many times and I considered it right. If it's possible, I ask the exchange the attached modified Hungarian section in global database! Thank you very much! Bets regards, Géza Nyáry
Hi, Was this change supposed to change the transition time on May 23, 1955 as well? For PHP I'm seeing a test case fail as it tested for the transition to happen at 1955-05-22 23:00 UTC / 1955-05-23 01:00 CET The 2020b NEWS item only mentions: "Correct several transitions for Hunggary for 1918/1983. For example, the 1983-09-25 fallback was at 01:00, not 03:00" and makes no mention of the May transition times, or 1955. cheers, Derick On Sat, 6 Jun 2020, Nyáry Géza wrote:
Dear Paul!
I examined it all of the Hungary daylight saving time changes. More differences I found what I repaired and I prepared it it source file, which I attach to this letter. I used Library Hungarica online database as a source, where from scanned contemporary ministerial decrees, instructions, newspapers and from other documents it was possible to find the time of the changes concerning the years. https://library.hungaricana.hu
I checked the modified changes many times and I considered it right. If it's possible, I ask the exchange the attached modified Hungarian section in global database! Thank you very much!
Bets regards, Géza Nyáry
-- PHP 7.4 Release Manager Host of PHP Internals News: https://phpinternals.news Like Xdebug? Consider supporting me: https://xdebug.org/support https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://dram.io twitter: @derickr and @xdebug
Hello Derick! This transaction was happen at 1955-05-22 01:00 (GMT)/1955-05-22 02:00 (CET) ----> 1955-05-22 03:00 (CEST). This is the hungarian decree: Translation to english: summer time period, 22 May, 1955 at the time of 2 clocks must be set forward to 3. ( according to local time to be understood ) [image: kép.png] Regards, Géza Derick Rethans <tz@derickrethans.nl> ezt írta (időpont: 2020. okt. 9., P, 11:51):
Hi,
Was this change supposed to change the transition time on May 23, 1955 as well?
For PHP I'm seeing a test case fail as it tested for the transition to happen at 1955-05-22 23:00 UTC / 1955-05-23 01:00 CET
The 2020b NEWS item only mentions: "Correct several transitions for Hunggary for 1918/1983. For example, the 1983-09-25 fallback was at 01:00, not 03:00" and makes no mention of the May transition times, or 1955.
cheers, Derick
On Sat, 6 Jun 2020, Nyáry Géza wrote:
Dear Paul!
I examined it all of the Hungary daylight saving time changes. More differences I found what I repaired and I prepared it it source file, which I attach to this letter. I used Library Hungarica online database as a source, where from scanned contemporary ministerial decrees, instructions, newspapers and from other documents it was possible to find the time of the changes concerning the years. https://library.hungaricana.hu
I checked the modified changes many times and I considered it right. If it's possible, I ask the exchange the attached modified Hungarian section in global database! Thank you very much!
Bets regards, Géza Nyáry
-- PHP 7.4 Release Manager Host of PHP Internals News: https://phpinternals.news Like Xdebug? Consider supporting me: https://xdebug.org/support https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://dram.io twitter: @derickr and @xdebug
Yes; the '/' in the NEWS item was intended as an interval designator in this case. Many transitions between 1918 and 1983 were updated. See: https://github.com/eggert/tz/commit/f87ed56dae304043e45c7cdbcff88de02b34fed4 -- Tim Parenti sent from my Android phone On Fri, 9 Oct 2020, 05:52 Derick Rethans, <tz@derickrethans.nl> wrote:
Hi,
Was this change supposed to change the transition time on May 23, 1955 as well?
For PHP I'm seeing a test case fail as it tested for the transition to happen at 1955-05-22 23:00 UTC / 1955-05-23 01:00 CET
The 2020b NEWS item only mentions: "Correct several transitions for Hunggary for 1918/1983. For example, the 1983-09-25 fallback was at 01:00, not 03:00" and makes no mention of the May transition times, or 1955.
cheers, Derick
On Sat, 6 Jun 2020, Nyáry Géza wrote:
Dear Paul!
I examined it all of the Hungary daylight saving time changes. More differences I found what I repaired and I prepared it it source file, which I attach to this letter. I used Library Hungarica online database as a source, where from scanned contemporary ministerial decrees, instructions, newspapers and from other documents it was possible to find the time of the changes concerning the years. https://library.hungaricana.hu
I checked the modified changes many times and I considered it right. If it's possible, I ask the exchange the attached modified Hungarian section in global database! Thank you very much!
Bets regards, Géza Nyáry
-- PHP 7.4 Release Manager Host of PHP Internals News: https://phpinternals.news Like Xdebug? Consider supporting me: https://xdebug.org/support https://derickrethans.nl | https://xdebug.org | https://dram.io twitter: @derickr and @xdebug
On 2020-06-06 09:25, Nyáry Géza wrote:
I used Library Hungarica online database as a source, where from scanned contemporary ministerial decrees, instructions, newspapers and from other documents it was possible to find the time of the changes concerning the years. https://library.hungaricana.hu
I checked the modified changes many times and I considered it right. If it's possible, I ask the exchange the attached modified Hungarian section in global database!
Many thanks for the careful work! I have checked the references you gave and offer the following comments: • source [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1949_09/?pg=94] documents only the step back on 1949-10-02 from 03 hours to 02 hours, but the start of summer time in 1949 is not documented in the sources you quote. • Also, the step back on 1942-11-02 is not documented in the sources. • sources [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1981_01/?pg=79] and [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1983/?pg=85] seem to be inconsistent: both mention two different date for the switch back in autumn (1981-09-26 and 1981-09-27 resp 1983-09-24 and 1983-09-25); I could make sense of different dates for the steps forward (from 24 h to 01 h) but not for the steps back. • source [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=12...] gives the steps for 1981, and should therefore placed later in the zic source. Do you have a source for the steps in 1980? I do not read Hungarian, so I easily may have overlooked something in these sources. Thanks again for the extensive work! Michael Deckers.
Hi Michael! You're right, some links fell behind or if there is more than one, but I insert these now. Some places are the transaction's information in hungarian language (in text) unfortunately. On these places you have to translate with Google. 1949 CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/KeletMagyarorszag_1949_03/?pg=96&layo... https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/UjSzo_1949_01-04/?pg=102&layout=s&que... 1941 CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/OGYK_RT_1941/?pg=1204&layout=s&query=... 1942 CET: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/OGYK_RT_1942/?pg=3955&layout=s&query=... 1981 CET and CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1981_01/?pg=79&layout... https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18... 1981-03-28 23:00 (GMT)/1981-03-29 00:00 (CET)-->1981-03-29 01:00 (CEST) 1981-09-26 23:00 (GMT)/1981-09-27 01:00 (CEST)-->1981-09-27 00:00 (CET) 1983 CET and CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1983/?pg=85... 1983-03-26 23:00 (GMT)/1983-03-27 00:00 (CET)-->1983-03-27 01:00 (CEST) 1983-09-24 23:00 (GMT)/1983-09-25 01:00 (CEST)-->1983-09-25 00:00 (CET) 1980 CET: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18... I hope so I answered all of your questions, but if something not clear, don't hesitate to write me! Regards, Géza Nyáry Michael H Deckers <michael.h.deckers@googlemail.com> ezt írta (időpont: 2020. okt. 10., Szo, 22:51):
On 2020-06-06 09:25, Nyáry Géza wrote:
I used Library Hungarica online database as a source, where from scanned contemporary ministerial decrees, instructions, newspapers and from other documents it was possible to find the time of the changes concerning the years. https://library.hungaricana.hu
I checked the modified changes many times and I considered it right. If it's possible, I ask the exchange the attached modified Hungarian section in global database!
Many thanks for the careful work!
I have checked the references you gave and offer the following comments:
• source [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1949_09/?pg=94] documents only the step back on 1949-10-02 from 03 hours to 02 hours, but the start of summer time in 1949 is not documented in the sources you quote.
• Also, the step back on 1942-11-02 is not documented in the sources.
• sources [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1981_01/?pg=79] and [ https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1983/?pg=85 ] seem to be inconsistent: both mention two different date for the switch back in autumn (1981-09-26 and 1981-09-27 resp 1983-09-24 and 1983-09-25); I could make sense of different dates for the steps forward (from 24 h to 01 h) but not for the steps back.
• source [ https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=12... ] gives the steps for 1981, and should therefore placed later in the zic source. Do you have a source for the steps in 1980?
I do not read Hungarian, so I easily may have overlooked something in these sources. Thanks again for the extensive work!
Michael Deckers.
On 2020-10-11 08:15, Nyáry Géza wrote:
You're right, some links fell behind or if there is more than one, but I insert these now. Some places are the transaction's information in hungarian language (in text) unfortunately. On these places you have to translate with Google.
1949 CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/KeletMagyarorszag_1949_03/?pg=96&layo... https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/UjSzo_1949_01-04/?pg=102&layout=s&que...
1942 CET: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/OGYK_RT_1942/?pg=3955&layout=s&query=... ... 1981 CET and CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1981_01/?pg=79&layout... https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18... 1981-03-28 23:00 (GMT)/1981-03-29 00:00 (CET)-->1981-03-29 01:00 (CEST) 1981-09-26 23:00 (GMT)/1981-09-27 01:00 (CEST)-->1981-09-27 00:00 (CET)
1983 CET and CEST: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1983/?pg=85... 1983-03-26 23:00 (GMT)/1983-03-27 00:00 (CET)-->1983-03-27 01:00 (CEST) 1983-09-24 23:00 (GMT)/1983-09-25 01:00 (CEST)-->1983-09-25 00:00 (CET)
1980 CET: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18...
Thank you Géza for the additional sources!
I hope so I answered all of your questions, but if something not clear, don't hesitate to write me!
Well, thanks, in fact I do have additional questions: • Is the 24 hours system generally used in Hungarian? More precisely: do "2 órakor" and "órakét" (at 2 hours) always mean 2 am or can they also mean 2 pm? (It is clear that "0 órakor" cannot mean noon.) And if these expressions may sometimes be ambiguous, how is am distinguished from pm? • Are there common Hungarian abbreviations for közép-európai téli idő (central European winter time) közép-európai nyári idő (central European summer time) (for instance in travel schedules)? CLDR gives only the English forms CET and CEST, as far as I can see. Many thanks for your kind help. Michael Deckers.
Hello! "2 órakor" always means 2 am. "délután 2 órakor" or " 14 órakor" means 2 pm, ("délután" means PM, "délelőtt" means AM) midnight is "0 órakor" • Are there common Hungarian abbreviations for közép-európai téli idő (central European winter time) közép-európai nyári idő (central European summer time) (for instance in travel schedules)? CLDR gives only the English forms CET and CEST, as far as I can see. Yes, thats' right. Géza Michael H Deckers <michael.h.deckers@googlemail.com> ezt írta (időpont: 2020. okt. 12., H, 18:11):
On 2020-10-11 08:15, Nyáry Géza wrote:
You're right, some links fell behind or if there is more than one, but I insert these now. Some places are the transaction's information in hungarian language (in text) unfortunately. On these places you have to translate with Google.
1949 CEST:
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/KeletMagyarorszag_1949_03/?pg=96&layo...
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/UjSzo_1949_01-04/?pg=102&layout=s&que...
1942 CET:
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/OGYK_RT_1942/?pg=3955&layout=s&query=... ...
1981 CET and CEST:
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1981_01/?pg=79&layout...
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18...
1981-03-28 23:00 (GMT)/1981-03-29 00:00 (CET)-->1981-03-29 01:00 (CEST) 1981-09-26 23:00 (GMT)/1981-09-27 01:00 (CEST)-->1981-09-27 00:00 (CET)
1983 CET and CEST:
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1983/?pg=85...
1983-03-26 23:00 (GMT)/1983-03-27 00:00 (CET)-->1983-03-27 01:00 (CEST) 1983-09-24 23:00 (GMT)/1983-09-25 01:00 (CEST)-->1983-09-25 00:00 (CET)
1980 CET:
https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18...
Thank you Géza for the additional sources!
I hope so I answered all of your questions, but if something not clear, don't hesitate to write me!
Well, thanks, in fact I do have additional questions:
• Is the 24 hours system generally used in Hungarian? More precisely: do "2 órakor" and "órakét" (at 2 hours) always mean 2 am or can they also mean 2 pm? (It is clear that "0 órakor" cannot mean noon.)
And if these expressions may sometimes be ambiguous, how is am distinguished from pm?
• Are there common Hungarian abbreviations for közép-európai téli idő (central European winter time) közép-európai nyári idő (central European summer time) (for instance in travel schedules)? CLDR gives only the English forms CET and CEST, as far as I can see.
Many thanks for your kind help.
Michael Deckers.
On 10/10/20 1:51 PM, Michael H Deckers via tz wrote:
• sources [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/Delmagyarorszag_1981_01/?pg=79] and [https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1983/?pg=85] seem to be inconsistent: both mention two different date for the switch back in autumn (1981-09-26 and 1981-09-27 resp 1983-09-24 and 1983-09-25); I could make sense of different dates for the steps forward (from 24 h to 01 h) but not for the steps back.
That makes sense to me, when documenting a fall back from 01:00 to 24:00 the previous day. Traditionally, midnight is in both adjacent days (or in neither day). Although the recent advent of computer-based clocks has promoted the currently-popular approach that midnight is part of the next day not the previous one, this approach surely hadn't taken hold in Hungary circa 1980. I installed the attached to try to cover your other comments; thanks.
On 2020-10-11 17:11, Paul Eggert proposed the change:
+# [URL missing for 1949 DST start] .... -# https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=12... +# [URLs missing for 1980 DST]
Géza Nyáry has provided a source for the start of summer time in 1949: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/KeletMagyarorszag_1949_03/?pg=96 and for both 1980 transitions: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/DTT_KOZL_TanacsokKozlonye_1980/?pg=18... Michael Deckers.
On 2020-10-12 19:30, Michael H Deckers omitted: Géza Nyáry has provided a source for the start of summer time in 1942: https://library.hungaricana.hu/hu/view/OGYK_RT_1942/?pg=3955 Michael Deckers.
participants (5)
-
Derick Rethans -
Michael H Deckers -
Nyáry Géza -
Paul Eggert -
Tim Parenti