At 07:51 AM 10/8/2015, Arthur David Olson wrote:
We might expect that if the legislative intent was for the entirety of Baja California to use the U. S. rules, the legislation would have been written more simply.
That being said, it's certainly possible (or even probable) that de facto the entirety of Baja California uses U. S. rules, regardless of de jure.
Providentially, we're coming up on the days when a few international phone calls (or, if possible, monitoring radio or TV stations) can shed light on the matter.
Not sure if this casts light or mud on the issue, but last year (Feb '14) I contacted a business on Isla Cedros (which is in Baja) about the local time, and received this reply (relevant passage underscored):
Mr Jones Thank you for coming to us for the answer. Cedros island is governed by the Baja California State, therefore most of the time it has the same time zone Pacific shared by California. But, thanks to bureaucrats sitting behind their desks with nothing better to do than to complicate the lives of their citizens ....... Sorry...... sometimes after the time change in the US the time zone is different than California, but is not for more than a week, when its similar to Mountain time/ Baja Sur..... I know, what a pain.... There is no ferry services for passengers from Bahia Tortugas to Cedros. I hope this helps. Salud! Jose Angel Sanchez Cedros Outdoor Adventures
So it sounds like the actual implementation may not extend all the way down to the Baja/Baja Sur border. Regards, Steve Jones
Steve Jones wrote:
So it sounds like the actual implementation may not extend all the way down to the Baja/Baja Sur border.
Yes, that sounds definitive. I suppose we could rename America/Santa_Isabel to America/Cedros_Island, since we know Cedros Island observes UTC-8 with Mexican rules. But it'd be nicer if we could find the largest town in that time zone region.
Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
Steve Jones wrote:
So it sounds like the actual implementation may not extend all the way down to the Baja/Baja Sur border.
Yes, that sounds definitive. I suppose we could rename America/Santa_Isabel to America/Cedros_Island, since we know Cedros Island observes UTC-8 with Mexican rules. But it'd be nicer if we could find the largest town in that time zone region.
This map on Wikipedia purports to show the regions of Mexico which use US rules. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Horario_de_Verano_Fronterizo.png The text of the article claims: De acuerdo con el decreto del H. Congreso de la Unión publicado en el Diario Oficial de la Federación el 6 de enero de 2010, se modifica la regla de aplicación del horario de verano en la Frontera Norte de México según lo dispuesto en el texto siguiente:10 El horario de verano fronterizo se aplicará en las ciudades de Tijuana, Ensenada y Mexicali en Baja California, Ciudad Juárez y Ojinaga en Chihuahua, Acuña y Piedras Negras en Coahuila, Anáhuac en Nuevo León y Nuevo Laredo , Reynosa y Matamoros en Tamaulipas, así como otros municipios que se encuentren entre la franja fronteriza y una línea paralela de 20 kilómetros con respecto a la frontera ya mencionada. Google Translate: According to the decree of the Congress of the Union published in the Official Journal of the Federation on January 6, 2010, amending application rule of summertime in the Northern Border of Mexico in accordance with the following: 10 The summer schedule will apply in border cities of Tijuana, Ensenada and Mexicali in Baja California, Ciudad Juarez and Ojinaga in Chihuahua, Acuña and Piedras Negras in Coahuila, Nuevo Leon and Anahuac Nuevo Laredo, Reynosa and Matamoros in Tamaulipas and other municipalities that fall between the border and a line 20 kilometers parallel with respect to the aforementioned border. The wikipedia map interprets this as exactly 20 km *due south* of the border, as opposed to 20 km *away* from the border, though this is obviously a distinction without a difference in Baja.
On Thursday 2015-10-08 22:40 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote:
Steve Jones wrote:
So it sounds like the actual implementation may not extend all the way down to the Baja/Baja Sur border.
Yes, that sounds definitive. I suppose we could rename America/Santa_Isabel to America/Cedros_Island, since we know Cedros Island observes UTC-8 with Mexican rules. But it'd be nicer if we could find the largest town in that time zone region.
A few more links (although Steve Jones's post to which you're replying hasn't made it through to the list yet): A few press releases from early march of this year, from: The mexican national government: http://www.informador.com.mx/mexico/2015/580217/6/horario-de-verano-iniciara... The Baja California state government: http://www.bajacalifornia.gob.mx/portal/noticia_completa.jsp?noticia=25837 And the Ensenada municipal government: http://www.ensenada.gob.mx/xxi/?p=12515 which is of interest since it is the farthest of the 5 municipalities of Baja California from the US border, per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Baja_California The state government press release seems to imply that the entire state follows the US rules. The Ensenada municipality press release lists 11 frontier municipalities in which the US rules apply (including 3 of the 5 municipalities of Baja California), but doesn't imply that the list is complete. It also seems to say the whole state follows US rules. It also says that the Centro Nacional de Metrología is in charge of time in the country. Most interestingly, the national government press release lists 33 municipalities in which the US rules apply (and lists all 5 of the municipalities of Baja California):
Los 33 municipios fronterizos en donde el horario de verano iniciará son: Tijuana, Mexicali, Ensenada, Playa Rosarito y Tecate, en Baja California; Juárez, Ojinaga, Ascensión, Coyame del Sotol, Guadalupe, Janos, Manuel Benavides y Praxedis G. Guerrero, en Chihuahua.
Además de Acuña, Piedras Negras, Guerrero, Hidalgo, Jiménez, Zaragoza, Nava y Ocampo, en Coahuila; Anáhuac y Los Aldama, en Nuevo León; Nuevo Laredo, Reynosa, Matamoros, Camargo, Guerrero, Gustavo Díaz Ordaz, Mier, Miguel Alemán, Río Bravo y Valle Hermoso, en Tamaulipas.
Or, to both translate and present in list form, it's listing the following municipalities in the following states: Baja California (5 of 5 municipalities): Tijuana Mexicali Ensenada Playa Rosarito Tecate Chihuahua (8 of 67 municipalities): Juárez Ojinaga Ascensión Coyame del Sotol Guadalupe Janos Manuel Benavides Praxedis G. Guerrero Coahuila (8 of 38 municipalities): Acuña Piedras Negras Guerrero Hidalgo Jiménez Zaragoza Nava Ocampo Nuevo León (2 of 51 municipalities): Anáhuac Los Aldama Tamaulipas (10 of 43 municipalities): Nuevo Laredo Reynosa Matamoros Camargo Guerrero Gustavo Díaz Ordaz Mier Miguel Alemán Río Bravo Valle Hermoso I got the state totals from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Baja_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Chihuahua https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Coahuila https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Nuevo_Le%C3%B3n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Tamaulipas The best I could find at the Centro Nacional de Metrología was this: http://www.cenam.mx/hora_oficial/ndisposicion.aspx which first quotes from a decree that lists a smaller list of municipalities, and then gives a broader rule that says all municipalities within 20km of the US border *plus* the municipality of Ensenada in Baja California follow the US rules. (The smaller list quoting from law matches the one in the Ensenada municipalitity's press release with the exception of Ensenada municipality, which is in the municipality's list but not the list in the decree quoted by CENAM.) (I'd caution that my Spanish is reasonably good, but not the level of a native speaker. Probably better than Google Translate, though.) -David -- 𝄞 L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/ 𝄂 𝄢 Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/ 𝄂 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)
On Fri, Oct 9, 2015, at 02:37, L. David Baron wrote:
The best I could find at the Centro Nacional de Metrología was this: http://www.cenam.mx/hora_oficial/ndisposicion.aspx which first quotes from a decree that lists a smaller list of municipalities, and then gives a broader rule that says all municipalities within 20km of the US border *plus* the municipality of Ensenada in Baja California follow the US rules.
That page says "la Ciudad de" Ensenada, which may mean the city (125 km from the border) rather than the municipality (which covers the whole rest of the state) It might be best to simply see if someone can contact a business in, say, San Felipe, and find out what time it is. If they do use the Mexican rule, they're probably the largest (and furthest north of any significant size, at 190 km from the border) city in the state that does.
(I'd caution that my Spanish is reasonably good, but not the level of a native speaker. Probably better than Google Translate, though.)
I wonder if there are subtleties we are missing that mean this is a list of municipalities in which *at least part of* the municipality observes US rules.
On Thursday 2015-10-08 22:40 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote:
Steve Jones wrote:
So it sounds like the actual implementation may not extend all the way down to the Baja/Baja Sur border.
Yes, that sounds definitive. I suppose we could rename America/Santa_Isabel to America/Cedros_Island, since we know Cedros Island observes UTC-8 with Mexican rules. But it'd be nicer if we could find the largest town in that time zone region.
Now that Steve's message arrived to the list, one more comment: The quote in question is:
sometimes after the time change in the US the time zone is different than California, but is not for more than a week, when its similar to Mountain time/ Baja Sur..... I know, what a pain....
This seems a bit less than definitive to me, since during the intervals between the US and Mexican time changes (2nd Sunday in March - first Sunday in April, and last Sunday in in October - first Sunday in November), California (US) and Baja California Sur (Mexico) are at the same UTC offset (UTC-7). It sounds like the author of the quote may be assuming that Baja Sur (Mexico) and California (US) must always be different, and therefore matching one means not matching the other. Two other clarifications to the paragraph at the end of my post yesterday about http://www.cenam.mx/hora_oficial/ndisposicion.aspx . First, there's a link in the sidebar of http://www.cenam.mx/hora_oficial/ to the actual decree at http://dof.gob.mx/nota_detalle.php?codigo=5127480&fecha=06/01/2010 which makes it clear that both paragraphs that I was referring to were from the decree, rather than only the first. Second, there is one bit of ambiguous wording in the decree which is that it always refers to municipalities *except* when referring to Ensenada, when it refers to the *city* of Ensenada. It's not clear to me whether this refers to the municipality or to the capital of that municipality, with the same name. (However, this is not ambiguous in the national government press release that I quoted.) -David -- 𝄞 L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/ 𝄂 𝄢 Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/ 𝄂 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know What I was walling in or walling out, And to whom I was like to give offense. - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)
participants (4)
-
L. David Baron -
Paul Eggert -
Random832 -
Steve Jones