I understand this has been discussed last year, but since then both UN and US had adopted the name change from “Turkey” to “ Türkiye”. https://turkiye.un.org/en/184798-turkeys-name-changed-t%C3%BCrkiye Turkey's name changed to Türkiye turkiye.un.org https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/world/middleeast/turkey-spelling-change.html For the State Department, Now It’s Türkiye, Not Turkey nytimes.com Recently Unicode CLDR data has updated the name in CLDR 43 as well. https://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads/cldr-43 The Turkish government recently asked businesses operating in Türkiye to adopt the new name before the end of the 2023. I think it might be the time for the Turkey Time to be changed to Türkiye Time in tzdata. Letu Yang
Unlike CLDR, IANA tzdata doesn't capture such names - other in comments. The tzdata name for Türkiye's time zone was and continues to be Asia/Istanbul. On Wed, Sep 6, 2023, 9:50 AM Letu Yang via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
I understand this has been discussed last year, but since then both UN and US had adopted the name change from “Turkey” to “ Türkiye”.
[image: turkiye.jpg]
Turkey's name changed to Türkiye <https://turkiye.un.org/en/184798-turkeys-name-changed-t%C3%BCrkiye> turkiye.un.org <https://turkiye.un.org/en/184798-turkeys-name-changed-t%C3%BCrkiye> <https://turkiye.un.org/en/184798-turkeys-name-changed-t%C3%BCrkiye> [image: 05xp-Turkiye-facebookJumbo.jpg]
For the State Department, Now It’s Türkiye, Not Turkey <https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/world/middleeast/turkey-spelling-change.h...> nytimes.com <https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/world/middleeast/turkey-spelling-change.h...>
<https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/05/world/middleeast/turkey-spelling-change.h...>
Recently Unicode CLDR data has updated the name in CLDR 43 as well. Unicode CLDR - CLDR 43 Release Note <https://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads/cldr-43> cldr.unicode.org <https://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads/cldr-43> [image: 4CX6hGXQogfta0rF1ZFjpOLuPehn64KGjMOwTG72EqWHAbneylciPgNrnPJ3D3oi8A2uCUpEclwb1O6fjoGvNWg=w16383.gif] <https://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads/cldr-43> <https://cldr.unicode.org/index/downloads/cldr-43>
The Turkish government recently asked businesses operating in Türkiye to adopt the new name before the end of the 2023. I think it might be the time for the Turkey Time to be changed to Türkiye Time in tzdata.
Letu Yang
On 2023-09-06 09:55, Matt Johnson-Pint via tz wrote:
Unlike CLDR, IANA tzdata doesn't capture such names - other in comments.
Yes, TZDB is not a user-facing database so any Turkish guidelines about text seen by business customers should be a matter for CLDR or equivalent, not for TZDB. As far as I know, all Apple OSes use CLDR, so if CLDR says "Türkiye" Apple should be OK.
The tzdata name for Türkiye's time zone was and continues to be Asia/Istanbul.
The zone is Europe/Istanbul; Asia/Istanbul is a link. Letu may be referring to the line "Link Europe/Istanbul Turkey" in the 'backward' file. Changing that line would disrupt the rare old-fashioned users who who have used TZ='Turkey' for decades. Adding another backward-compatibility line "Link Europe/Istanbul Türkiye" would fail to follow TZDB's naming conventions requiring ASCII for link names; also there's no need for such a line as old-fashioned users did not use TZ='Türkiye' and (as you suggested) modern users should be using TZ='Europe/Istanbul' anyway. Or perhaps Letu is referring to the line "TR Turkey" in the iso3166.tab file. Although iso3166 already has a comment about this sort of thing, the comment could be more explicit. Proposed patch attached and installed into the TZDB development repository (comments welcome as usual). It's also possible that Letu is referring to some other instance of "Turkey" somewhere in TZDB. If so, it'd be helpful to know exactly where, by sending us a draft patch.
Thank you for the clarification! Yes, I was talking about the backward file and the iso3166 file. I understand the none-ASCII7 char might be an issue to be supported by many old-fashioned users.
On Sep 6, 2023, at 2:03 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 2023-09-06 09:55, Matt Johnson-Pint via tz wrote:
Unlike CLDR, IANA tzdata doesn't capture such names - other in comments.
Yes, TZDB is not a user-facing database so any Turkish guidelines about text seen by business customers should be a matter for CLDR or equivalent, not for TZDB. As far as I know, all Apple OSes use CLDR, so if CLDR says "Türkiye" Apple should be OK.
The tzdata name for Türkiye's time zone was and continues to be Asia/Istanbul.
The zone is Europe/Istanbul; Asia/Istanbul is a link.
Letu may be referring to the line "Link Europe/Istanbul Turkey" in the 'backward' file. Changing that line would disrupt the rare old-fashioned users who who have used TZ='Turkey' for decades. Adding another backward-compatibility line "Link Europe/Istanbul Türkiye" would fail to follow TZDB's naming conventions requiring ASCII for link names; also there's no need for such a line as old-fashioned users did not use TZ='Türkiye' and (as you suggested) modern users should be using TZ='Europe/Istanbul' anyway.
Or perhaps Letu is referring to the line "TR Turkey" in the iso3166.tab file. Although iso3166 already has a comment about this sort of thing, the comment could be more explicit. Proposed patch attached and installed into the TZDB development repository (comments welcome as usual).
It's also possible that Letu is referring to some other instance of "Turkey" somewhere in TZDB. If so, it'd be helpful to know exactly where, by sending us a draft patch. <0001-Document-iso3166.tab-naming.patch>
Paul Eggert wrote:
Or perhaps Letu is referring to the line "TR Turkey" in the iso3166.tab file. Although iso3166 already has a comment about this sort of thing, the comment could be more explicit.
I agree 100% that nothing in the tz database is intended, nor should be viewed as, normative or “best” user-facing names for countries or cities. It’s unfortunate that not everyone reads, understands, or agrees with this when a country or city changes its name and there is a willingness to sacrifice tz identifier stability. Having said that, the names in iso3166.tab don’t always seem to represent “the usual English name for the coded region” and certainly don’t demonstrate that updated names, or those involving non-ASCII, are contrary to policy or even practice for this file. Some entries that I would argue are not “the usual English name” include: BQ Caribbean NL GB Britain (UK) TF French S. Terr. while these are evidence of updated and/or non-ASCII names: AX Åland Islands CI Côte d'Ivoire CW Curaçao SZ Eswatini (Swaziland) The second list does seem to provide a reasonable precedent for Türkiye. -- Doug Ewell, CC, ALB | Lakewood, CO, US | ewellic.org
On 2023-09-07 05:03:06 (+0800), Paul Eggert via tz wrote:
Or perhaps Letu is referring to the line "TR Turkey" in the iso3166.tab file. Although iso3166 already has a comment about this sort of thing, the comment could be more explicit. Proposed patch attached and installed into the TZDB development repository (comments welcome as usual).
I don't like the rewording of this comment. Is "confusion among non-experts" [about the name of a country] really that much of a problem? I don't remember hearing from too many confused non-experts when Swaziland was renamed Eswatini in 2019. I don't think there's a compelling argument not to follow the Swaziland -> Eswatini precedent and rename Turkey -> Türkiye. To avoid churn later, we should also rename Czech Republic -> Czechia at this time. That change was made in 2016. [Tongue firmly in cheek: Seven years should be enough for even the most confused non-experts ... those who weren't fatally injured by the shock of how swiftly the Eswatini renaming was adopted.] Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises
participants (5)
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Doug Ewell -
Letu Yang -
Matt Johnson-Pint -
Paul Eggert -
Philip Paeps