US Mountain/Central border at Fort Pierre SD
If I might seek the wisdom of the list on a minor topic: The current Mountain/Central boundary in the most recent official US DOT description (49CFR71.7, http://goo.gl/tqBou), has the border running right through Fort Pierre South Dakota. Here is the relevant text:
From the junction of the North Dakota-South Dakota boundary with the Missouri River southerly along the main channel of that river to the crossing of the original Chicago & North Western Railway near Pierre; thence southwesterly to the northern boundary of Jones County at the northeast corner of the NE 1, Sec. 6, T. 2 N., R. 30 E. [note: that's about 44.18635, -100.54646)
That makes a straight line from the railroad bridge north of town to 44.18635, -100.54646, this line not making much sense in the context of what's on the ground. A second-hand recent conversation with a Stanley County SD official was relayed to me, including the following:
...The person with whom I spoke said the official dividing line is the Bad River, which makes more sense than bisecting Fort Pierre. ... The communities along the Bad River are so tiny (several houses each) that they don't have official policies. The person with whom I spoke assumed they would use Central Time because aside from Fort Pierre, there's no significant populated place that's even close.
There are several common sense border adjustments I could make here and probably be more accurate than the DOT (with regards to what a traveler would encounter in the area). Something like a line from the southern end of the dam at Lake Oahe southward to the Bad River, then following the Bad River soutwesterly to the northern border of Jones County... (and from that point rejoining the DOT description). I would prefer to use some authoritative reference - if possible. Any advice on how to proceed? All I can think of is to try a reference librarian in Pierre. Cheers, Steve Jones
At 10:03 3/23/2011, Steve Jones wrote:
The current Mountain/Central boundary in the most recent official US DOT description (49CFR71.7, http://goo.gl/tqBou), has the border running right through Fort Pierre South Dakota.
A follow up: In the above I made a major error by failing to recognize the significance of this part of 49CFR71.7:
(g) Points on boundary line. All municipalities located upon the zone boundary line described in this section are in the mountain standard time zone, except Murdo, S. Dak., which is in the central standard time zone.
So all of the municipality of Fort Pierre is indeed within the Mountain Time zone. Today I released OnTimeZone.com v1.05, which includes my interpretation of the Fort Pierre anomaly, as well as a similar situation in Winterhaven California, which, in respect to proximity to Yuma AZ, observes what it calls "Arizona Time" (Mountain Standard Time) year round. Here is what the site says about these changes:
SD: The city of Fort Pierre (legally in the Mountain time zone) and a large radius on the west side of the Mountain/Central border observes Central time. Research determined that the distance this observance extends to the west is a matter of disagreement among the locals. After some effort to get a definitive answer I gave up and arbitrarily selected 20 miles, though I heard credible opinions that it stretched out as much as 50 miles. There are no services and very few residents in the western part of Stanley county, so the point is somewhat moot.
CA: Winterhaven California, in deference to its proximity to Yuma AZ, observes Mountain Standard Time year round. This means that (like AZ) Winterhaven does not observe Daylight Saving time. So this puts Winterhaven ahead of California by one hour (in sync with Arizona) during Standard time - in the Fall and Winter. And in sync with both CA and AZ during Spring and Summer (Daylight Saving time). The dividing line of this observed boundary is locally considered to be the "All American Canal".
I hope this information is of use to some here. Regards, Steve Jones OnTimeZone.com
Vidal, California also observes America/Phoenix rules. I experienced this personally while camped there in late 2009 - early 2010, but Vidal Junction is on America/Los Angeles. My cell phone was indicating this and it also seems that the few people in that ghost town of Vidal work in Parker, AZ. Rgds, Curtis Manwaring ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Jones To: tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov ; tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov ; tz@lecserver.nci.nih.gov Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 12:45 AM Subject: Mtn/Cntrl border at Fort Pierre South Dakota (also Pac/Mtn border at Winterhaven California) At 10:03 3/23/2011, Steve Jones wrote: The current Mountain/Central boundary in the most recent official US DOT description (49CFR71.7, http://goo.gl/tqBou), has the border running right through Fort Pierre South Dakota. A follow up: In the above I made a major error by failing to recognize the significance of this part of 49CFR71.7: (g) Points on boundary line. All municipalities located upon the zone boundary line described in this section are in the mountain standard time zone, except Murdo, S. Dak., which is in the central standard time zone. So all of the municipality of Fort Pierre is indeed within the Mountain Time zone. Today I released OnTimeZone.com v1.05, which includes my interpretation of the Fort Pierre anomaly, as well as a similar situation in Winterhaven California, which, in respect to proximity to Yuma AZ, observes what it calls "Arizona Time" (Mountain Standard Time) year round. Here is what the site says about these changes: SD: The city of Fort Pierre (legally in the Mountain time zone) and a large radius on the west side of the Mountain/Central border observes Central time. Research determined that the distance this observance extends to the west is a matter of disagreement among the locals. After some effort to get a definitive answer I gave up and arbitrarily selected 20 miles, though I heard credible opinions that it stretched out as much as 50 miles. There are no services and very few residents in the western part of Stanley county, so the point is somewhat moot. CA: Winterhaven California, in deference to its proximity to Yuma AZ, observes Mountain Standard Time year round. This means that (like AZ) Winterhaven does not observe Daylight Saving time. So this puts Winterhaven ahead of California by one hour (in sync with Arizona) during Standard time - in the Fall and Winter. And in sync with both CA and AZ during Spring and Summer (Daylight Saving time). The dividing line of this observed boundary is locally considered to be the "All American Canal". I hope this information is of use to some here. Regards, Steve Jones OnTimeZone.com
I have researched in newspaper archives, and found an article in the paper 'The Mountain Democrat Times' of 1968 March 28, which confirms that the whole area on the Yuma AZ side of the Colorado River but belonging to California followed even then Arizona time, i.e. MST without observing DST. It mentions the post office in Bard, CA as an example, and probably it includes the populated places Winterhaven, Ross Corner and Bard. Before 1968 I found no source. But probably we can assume that this habit has been permanent. The simplest is to include this area with Arizona, for timezone purposes. On 07.04.11 06:45, Steve Jones wrote:
CA: Winterhaven California, in deference to its proximity to Yuma AZ, observes Mountain Standard Time year round. This means that (like AZ) Winterhaven does not observe Daylight Saving time. So this puts Winterhaven ahead of California by one hour (in sync with Arizona) during Standard time - in the Fall and Winter. And in sync with both CA and AZ during Spring and Summer (Daylight Saving time). The dividing line of this observed boundary is locally considered to be the "All American Canal".
At 06:54 9/12/2011, Alois Treindl wrote:
I have researched in newspaper archives, and found an article in the paper 'The Mountain Democrat Times' of 1968 March 28, which confirms that the whole area on the Yuma AZ side of the Colorado River but belonging to California followed even then Arizona time, i.e. MST without observing DST.
It mentions the post office in Bard, CA as an example, and probably it includes the populated places Winterhaven, Ross Corner and Bard.
Before 1968 I found no source. But probably we can assume that this habit has been permanent. The simplest is to include this area with Arizona, for timezone purposes.
Alois et al.: I don't presume to advise this community on how or whether such unofficial exceptions to time zone observance should be handled within the TZ database, but I will pass on my perspective on the phenomena - and hope it sheds some light. In the interest of full disclosure let me be clear that my limited knowledge on the topic is confined to North American nations and is not authoritative. Within that small set of nations the US seems to be the only one with multiple time zone borders clearly and explicitly defined by an acknowledged central authority (the US Dept. of Transportation). So within the US, local unofficial exceptions take on a somewhat different context than in some other nations where such central control may not be as clearly established, or may not be acknowledged by all populations or political subdivisions within the borders of that nation. I am aware of 8 such exceptions in the US. Within each, the scope of the exception can differ. To begin with, the actual borders of each such area are rarely specified with any clarity or authority. Winterhaven CA is a bit of an exception as the "All American Canal" seems to be locally acknowledged as the border, a convenient fixed mapping feature. Within each exception area one can presume that most businesses and residents set their clocks based on the exception, and that metaphorically (and literally, if it exists) the clock in town square displays the exception time. But in each area of exception, official time may still have a foothold in at least some of these contexts: The offices and services of City, County, State and/or Federal government (e.g. the Post Office). Law enforcement and judicial services provided by these various political subdivisions Bars/Liquor stores (depending on state law) Polling places Cell phones and other mobile consumer electronics that automatically adjust local time display For instance, apparently the automated California state law enforcement systems cannot handle multiple time zones. That would make sense as the entire state officially lies within the Pacific time zone. Thus all law enforcement services in Winterhaven follow California time, not Arizona time. And if you are in Pierre SD (which is in the Central time zone) and find you have run out of schnapps a little after midnight (when off-premise liquor sales are shut down by state law), you can venture over the bridge into Fort Pierre - a city and surrounding area that unofficially observes Central time despite being in the Mountain time zone - and find that the clock in the liquor store is set to Mountain time, an hour earlier than the rest of the town. Your party can continue. I find no consistent rule of thumb to use to estimate the scope of time zone exception observance within each area in question. Key factors seem to be whether the area contains an actual municipality (as in Ft. Pierre SD and Phenix City AL), and the degree to which the area is governed by a tribal authority. Other factors are state law, law enforcement systems, and simple custom. In other nations such as Canada and Mexico the scope of exceptions can be even more variable, as there may be less authority or specificity from a central source. Within OnTimeZone.com I treat all exceptions in Mexico and Canada as official due a general lack of clarity or assertion of authority from official sources. Most exceptions in Canada and Mexico have to do with Daylight Saving time observance rather than actual time zone borders. I hope some of this is of use. Regards, Steve Jones OnTimeZone.com
participants (3)
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Alois Treindl
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Steve Jones
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Zoidiasoft Tech