Conrad Maldives Rangali Island resort
Apparently, this resort in the Maldives has its own time zone and observes GMT+06 year round, unlike Male at GMT+05. It looks like we’d need a new zone for this. Source: Internal reports and: http://conradglobalmediacenter.com/assets/CNRD/docs/FactSheets/ConradMaldive... (search for “Local Time”) I wasn’t able to find any source contradicting this information. Apparently it’s a known issue that Maldives resort islands have their own (unofficial) time zones: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/maldives At the moment, users need to find a time zone that has the same GMT offset (in this case Indian/Chagos works) and use that instead. Thanks, Debbie
On 1/17/19 12:33 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz wrote:
At the moment, users need to find a time zone that has the same GMT offset (in this case Indian/Chagos works) and use that instead.
That should be good enough, no? I assume they've had the same time zone as Indian/Chagos since whenever.
Chagos is part of the British Indian Ocean Territories, an overseas territory of the UK, while Rangali Island is part of the Maldives, a sovereign nation. The fact that they happen to have the same GMT offset now is no guarantee they always did. Chagos changed from GMT+5 to GMT+6 in 1995. Given that they are from separately administered regions, I thought the policy was they should be separate time zones? Thanks, Debbie
On Jan 17, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@CS.UCLA.EDU> wrote:
On 1/17/19 12:33 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz wrote:
At the moment, users need to find a time zone that has the same GMT offset (in this case Indian/Chagos works) and use that instead.
That should be good enough, no? I assume they've had the same time zone as Indian/Chagos since whenever.
On Jan 17, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
Apparently, this resort in the Maldives has its own time zone and observes GMT+06 year round, unlike Male at GMT+05. It looks like we’d need a new zone for this.
Source: Internal reports and: http://conradglobalmediacenter.com/assets/CNRD/docs/FactSheets/ConradMaldive... (search for “Local Time”) I wasn’t able to find any source contradicting this information.
Apparently it’s a known issue that Maldives resort islands have their own (unofficial) time zones: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/maldives
While the TZ database as I understand it tries to reflect the reality on the ground even if it conflicts with official viewpoints, I wonder how far it should go in accommodating what feels like a "private timezone". It's one thing to reflect the reality within a region whose administration is disputed, as happened recently. But this case seems different and I wonder whether it should be ignored. If it is decided to support this, presumably all the other private timezones mentioned in that timeanddate page would also be. How many are there? If these are private decisions, there is no reason that two organizations which happen to use the same rule today will still do so tomorrow, so we might end up with one zone per resorts. Having more timezones in Maldives than in the USA seems a bit strange. paul
On 1/17/19 4:58 PM, Paul.Koning@dell.com wrote:
f these are private decisions, there is no reason that two organizations which happen to use the same rule today will still do so tomorrow, so we might end up with one zone per resorts.
Yes, I'm also thinking that per-resort timezones are a bit much. Also, it doesn't matter that Chagos changed in 1995, since the Conrad Maldives Rangali resort didn't exist back then so there is no inconsistency before 1995.
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:14:54 -0800 From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <4fb2d7a5-bf35-068c-6da2-4906f3ba31ca@cs.ucla.edu> | Also, it doesn't matter that Chagos changed in 1995, since the Conrad | Maldives Rangali resort didn't exist back then so there is no | inconsistency before 1995. Actually, there would be, wouldn't there ... before the resort existed, any timestamps for that region should use Maldives time (Male) (which presumably was what was in use in the location where the resort was yet to be built for whatever locals lived nearby). kre
Hi, Another resort, Dusit Thani Maldives, is 2 hours off Male time, so there are even more zones there than described in timeanddate.com. On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 6:23 AM Robert Elz <kre@munnari.oz.au> wrote:
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:14:54 -0800 From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <4fb2d7a5-bf35-068c-6da2-4906f3ba31ca@cs.ucla.edu>
| Also, it doesn't matter that Chagos changed in 1995, since the Conrad | Maldives Rangali resort didn't exist back then so there is no | inconsistency before 1995.
Actually, there would be, wouldn't there ... before the resort existed, any timestamps for that region should use Maldives time (Male) (which presumably was what was in use in the location where the resort was yet to be built for whatever locals lived nearby).
kre
-- Foreca Ltd Keilaranta 1, FI-02150 Espoo, Finland http://www.foreca.com
Jaakko Hyvätti wrote in <CALuzrQf0HCdMkDN3Bp70PapL+77DK354U8OtKdsOU_koW\ HPXnA@mail.gmail.com>: |Another resort, Dusit Thani Maldives, is 2 hours off Male time, so |there are even more zones there than described in timeanddate.com. | |On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 6:23 AM Robert Elz <kre@munnari.oz.au> wrote: |> |> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 18:14:54 -0800 |> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> |> Message-ID: <4fb2d7a5-bf35-068c-6da2-4906f3ba31ca@cs.ucla.edu> |> |>| Also, it doesn't matter that Chagos changed in 1995, since the Conrad |>| Maldives Rangali resort didn't exist back then so there is no |>| inconsistency before 1995. |> |> Actually, there would be, wouldn't there ... before the resort existed, \ |> any |> timestamps for that region should use Maldives time (Male) (which \ |> presumably |> was what was in use in the location where the resort was yet to be built |> for whatever locals lived nearby). It seems off-topic and destructive, but why not just wait ten more years, the private Learjets need to land on a beautiful turquoise water with no land (but lots of plastic garbage) upon it instead) by then. In fact that was my yesterdays first thinking: ah! i did not know this is still inhabitable! And it is good that the elite takes so many efforts, and cares. (In case this is of interest, i was not in holiday at all, but i met our local deer in the industrial forest we have here; he is still accompanied with his long time girl friend, and both are alive and well, even though winter is very hard! (Do not believe anything you read regarding animal relationships in school books! And photos are liars.)) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
On 2019-01-17 17:58, Paul.Koning@dell.com wrote:
On Jan 17, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote: Apparently, this resort in the Maldives has its own time zone and observes GMT+06 year round, unlike Male at GMT+05. It looks like we’d need a new zone for this. Source: Internal reports and: http://conradglobalmediacenter.com/assets/CNRD/docs/FactSheets/ConradMaldive... (search for “Local Time”) I wasn’t able to find any source contradicting this information. Apparently it’s a known issue that Maldives resort islands have their own (unofficial) time zones: https://www.timeanddate.com/time/zone/maldives While the TZ database as I understand it tries to reflect the reality on the ground even if it conflicts with official viewpoints, I wonder how far it should go in accommodating what feels like a "private timezone". It's one thing to reflect the reality within a region whose administration is disputed, as happened recently. But this case seems different and I wonder whether it should be ignored. Not any different than the situations on reserves in the US e.g. Arizona, or various other locations where the time used locally differs from the official time at the local USPO or other goverment outpost. Seems more like an agreement across atolls/regions to keep to a more "relaxed" time zone for tourist reasons. There appears to be no more evidence to assume that these zones are "private" than there is to assume that they are promoted by the tourist bureau, and no reason to treat them differently from any other local variation. If you examine some of the local variations in sparsely populated regions you may find the cause of that variation is a primary local employer with an office elsewhere. There does not seem to be anything like definitive information on atoll/region time zones - just mentions on web sites, or lists of atolls/regions in comments. Variation from +05, to mainly +0600 ("island" time), some +0530 or +0630, maybe +0700, across 21 administrative subdivisions does not seem excessive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_the_Maldives "It consists of approximately 1,190 coral islands grouped in a double chain of 26 atolls, spread over roughly 90,000 square kilometers, making this one of the most disparate countries in the world."
If it is decided to support this, presumably all the other private timezones mentioned in that timeanddate page would also be. How many are there? If these are private decisions, there is no reason that two organizations which happen to use the same rule today will still do so tomorrow, so we might end up with one zone per resorts. Having more timezones in Maldives than in the USA seems a bit strange. Australia, Canada, and Russia also have more time zones than the USA; China has one and that seems more strange: politicians like to do things that make them feel special or unique, and changing a time zone is a popular way to do that.
-- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada This email may be disturbing to some readers as it contains too much technical detail. Reader discretion is advised.
On Fri, 2019-01-18 at 09:25 -0700, Brian Inglis wrote:
Not any different than the situations on reserves in the US e.g. Arizona, or various other locations where the time used locally differs from the official time at the local USPO or other goverment outpost. Seems more like an agreement across atolls/regions to keep to a more "relaxed" time zone for tourist reasons.
Apples and oranges! Indian reservations in the US are actually considered 'sovereign nations', with the relationship to the United States defined by treaty. As such, they have autonomous governments that are recognized by and accountable to their residents. The recent case with Metlakatla voting to change its time zone in a general election illustrates this well. This is quite different from some syndicate buying an island and then deciding to change the clocks on an _ad hoc_ basis. Such a move has no standing with the sovereign entity within which that island resides. It's just a private arrangement, and as such neither needs nor deserves wider recognition. Cheers! |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer | | | Paravel Systems | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Getting old isn't difficult, it just takes a long time. | | | | -- Robert Heinlein | | "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long" | |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
On Fri 2019-01-18T11:57:19-0500 Fred Gleason hath writ:
Apples and oranges! Indian reservations in the US are actually considered 'sovereign nations', with the relationship to the United States defined by treaty. As such, they have autonomous governments that are recognized by and accountable to their residents. The recent case with Metlakatla voting to change its time zone in a general election illustrates this well.
Oh, cool! I think this means that my Hoosier ancestors have just been accorded as sovereign nations by tzdb. Hoorah for Perry County! -- Steve Allen <sla@ucolick.org> WGS-84 (GPS) UCO/Lick Observatory--ISB 260 Natural Sciences II, Room 165 Lat +36.99855 1156 High Street Voice: +1 831 459 3046 Lng -122.06015 Santa Cruz, CA 95064 https://www.ucolick.org/~sla/ Hgt +250 m
As I understand it, the purpose of the tz database is to provide accurate information for users of computer systems. Someone wondering why their device doesn’t show the proper local time doesn’t really care about the niceties of sovereign nations vs. private organizations. It seems like the real problem here is gathering the data, and the number of new zones. I don’t think there would be any harm in adding time zones for these resorts. If there is concern about the unofficial status, they could be tagged under (e.g.) Indian/Private/ or something like that. From the DateAndTime article it sounds like the resorts are on Maldives time + 30, 60 or 90 minutes. An alternative to adding one zone per resort could be to have Indian/Maldives+30, Indian/Maldives+60, and Indian/Maldives+90. This would reduce the amount of work for us, and minimize the number of new zones. Thanks, Debbie
On Jan 18, 2019, at 8:57 AM, Fred Gleason <fredg@paravelsystems.com> wrote:
On Fri, 2019-01-18 at 09:25 -0700, Brian Inglis wrote:
Not any different than the situations on reserves in the US e.g. Arizona, or various other locations where the time used locally differs from the official time at the local USPO or other goverment outpost. Seems more like an agreement across atolls/regions to keep to a more "relaxed" time zone for tourist reasons.
Apples and oranges! Indian reservations in the US are actually considered 'sovereign nations', with the relationship to the United States defined by treaty. As such, they have autonomous governments that are recognized by and accountable to their residents. The recent case with Metlakatla voting to change its time zone in a general election illustrates this well.
This is quite different from some syndicate buying an island and then deciding to change the clocks on an _ad hoc_ basis. Such a move has no standing with the sovereign entity within which that island resides. It's just a private arrangement, and as such neither needs nor deserves wider recognition.
Cheers!
|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer | | | Paravel Systems | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Getting old isn't difficult, it just takes a long time. | | | | -- Robert Heinlein | | "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long" | |---------------------------------------------------------------------|
On 1/18/19 3:39 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz wrote:
It seems like the real problem here is gathering the data, and the number of new zones. I don’t think there would be any harm in adding time zones for these resorts.
It's notoriously hard to get reliable data for private time zones, and I'd rather not try. It's painful enough keeping the public time zone info up-to-date. If there's a real call for this data we could put it into 'backzone' or a similar file like that, but I don't want us to worry about maintaining it.
An alternative to adding one zone per resort could be to have Indian/Maldives+30, Indian/Maldives+60, and Indian/Maldives+90. There are already generic TZ settings like TZ='<+06>-6' and TZ='Etc/GMT-6' that support that sort of usage, so we shouldn't need to add specific tzdb entries for it.
On Jan 18, 2019, at 7:35 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 1/18/19 3:39 PM, Deborah Goldsmith via tz wrote:
It seems like the real problem here is gathering the data, and the number of new zones. I don’t think there would be any harm in adding time zones for these resorts.
It's notoriously hard to get reliable data for private time zones, and I'd rather not try. It's painful enough keeping the public time zone info up-to-date. If there's a real call for this data we could put it into 'backzone' or a similar file like that, but I don't want us to worry about maintaining it.
An alternative to adding one zone per resort could be to have Indian/Maldives+30, Indian/Maldives+60, and Indian/Maldives+90. There are already generic TZ settings like TZ='<+06>-6' and TZ='Etc/GMT-6' that support that sort of usage, so we shouldn't need to add specific tzdb entries for it.
It sounds like we'd need some Etc/GMT-630 (or something similar) for "generic half hour offset" cases. paul
Documenting unofficial deviations from "official" time is a task so fraught with guesses and shifting factors that it is a fools errand to try to turn them into data. I know, I'm a fool that tried to do it just for North America, an exercise I documented here: http://ontimezone.com/exceptions.php Steve Jones On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 5:39 PM Deborah Goldsmith via tz <tz@iana.org> wrote:
As I understand it, the purpose of the tz database is to provide accurate information for users of computer systems. Someone wondering why their device doesn’t show the proper local time doesn’t really care about the niceties of sovereign nations vs. private organizations.
It seems like the real problem here is gathering the data, and the number of new zones. I don’t think there would be any harm in adding time zones for these resorts. If there is concern about the unofficial status, they could be tagged under (e.g.) Indian/Private/ or something like that.
The Japanese site Suikawiki also have a page that collect these information: https://wiki.suikawiki.org/n/リゾートタイム
participants (11)
-
Brian Inglis -
Deborah Goldsmith -
Fred Gleason -
Jaakko Hyvätti -
Paul Eggert -
Paul.Koning＠dell.com -
Phake Nick -
Robert Elz -
Steffen Nurpmeso -
Steve Allen -
Steve Jones